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Mac prices vs PC prices, spec for spec
- Thread starter kastenbrust
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It depends on what you do with your computer. The problems with Windows are that it is run on a Frankenstein assortment of computers and no software house can test against them all, the Windows code contains a lot of legacy code that is built on over the years, when you fix something you break something else and it is reliant on applications written by large software houses. Something I found with Macs is that the best and most useful software tends to come from small software houses with only 4 or 5 employees.
Macs are traditionally used by people such as creative professionals and academics who have to work long unsociable hours to tight deadlines with very little in the way of technical support. An Enterprise institution running Windows has a small support army to keep the whole house of cards going.
I reckon about 50% of the presentations done on Windows have problems and have noted that a lot of people are bringing their own Mac laptops in to do the presentations on Keynote. So far I haven't seen one give any trouble.
Pay your money and take your chances.Personally I like to play it safe.
I agree that support on PCs can be frustrating due to the huge amount of different systems you find out there.
Anyway, talking about legacy code in Windows when OSX is not even full 64 bit yet, seems a little weird to me. Also, I don't know what you mean by "best and most useful software", but to me that's Photoshop (not done by 4 or 5 people), Microsoft Office (definitely not done by 4 or 5 people), etc. In most cases, when we talk about the professional side, most programs are available for both Mac and PC and, if not, there are similar alternatives. Plus, I don't see the advantages of getting software done by a small resourceless company vs. a big company that needs to prove reliability to their costumer to keep being big.
Macs are traditionally used by the people you describe because they don't adapt well to the company environment. Plus, if you have many Macs working together, you need people for support. For just a few Macs, it's much cheaper to pay for repairs whenever you may need them. For example, the vast majority (99% I would say) of the computers in the institution I work for are Macs (research institution) and we have that army of support people you mention. We only use Pcs for analytical machines (microscopes, spectrometers, PCR machines, etc) because there is no software available for Macs (and I think manufacturers don't like computers they cannot actually tweak to exactly fit their needs.
Maybe the 50% problematic presentations you saw are made by ignorant people. I have seen tones of presentations for Mac and PC and I can tell that 100% of the problems (on both platforms) come from the user side, not the computer. Plus, Powerpoint is without a doubt the program of choice for presentations in both Macs and Pcs. Occasionally you can see a presentation in Keynote, but iWorks is basically absent from the professional world. The department I work for is composed of about 100 people, with more than 90 Macs and nobody uses iWorks. Actually, I would say that have of the people don't even know what it is. And it has been the same in every place I have worked before. Only in the US you see sometimes people working with iWorks, but outside the US, its presence is testimonial.
< scary music is heard as the titles slowly crawl onto the screen in Comic Sans MS font... >
Night Of The Living Thread...
I think the reason people keep going back to this particular thread and ones like it is you can rationalize purchases an almost infinite variety of ways and like so many gadget and tech decisions the answer isn't cut and dry. Some users want to "sound smart" by talking about the internals of the kernel or comparing esoteric OS features the average user doesn't know or care about. Others are content to simply blurt out "it's true because I said so."
I have enjoyed this thread because a few users took the time to bring in specific examples of "superior" PC hardware deals for others to either agree with or pick apart. To the extent this thread lead to discussion comparing specific models on a spec by spec basis, it has earned the right to live on (or should I say limp on). If it devolves to "my dog is better than your dog" or name calling, I trust the appropriate warnings, time outs and bans will follow.
Thanks for letting us know the OP was banned. Perhaps that will serve as a warning that will set the stage to encourage constructive discussion and discourage flames.
It appears thunderbolt is going to become popular in the professional settings in which Macs are typically deployed.
https://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/11/thunderbolt-products-starting-to-roll-out-at-nab/
Weird?
https://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/11/thunderbolt-products-starting-to-roll-out-at-nab/
Weird?
Im on the fence between this thinkpad and a macbook pro.
thinkpad w520
Intel Core i7-2720QM Processor (2.20GHz, 6MB L3)1
Genuine Windows 7 Professional 6412
15.6" FHD (1920 x 1080) LED Backlit Anti-Glare Display, Mobile Broadband Ready
NVIDIA Quadro 1000M Graphics with 2GB DDR3 Memory
8 GB PC3-10600 DDR3 SDRAM 1333MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)8
UltraNav with TrackPoint & touchpad plus Fingerprint reader
Dual RAID HDDs, 500 GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm4
RAID via Bay Adapter5
9 cell Li-Ion Battery - 55++60
Bluetooth 3.0
ThinkPad b/g/n10
Integrated Mobile Broadband - Upgradable
1,835.10$ with discount.
Macbook Pro 2011
2.2GHz quad-core
Intel Core i7
4GB 1333MHz
750GB 5400-rpm1
Intel HD Graphics 3000
AMD Radeon HD 6750M with 1GB GDDR5
Built-in battery (7 hours)
Gonna probabli go macbook pro because of thunderbolt and most of mi editing stuff is mac. But, better screen, 8gb ram, 2 disks for less... dont know about the graphics card difference. Also, most people dont like thinkpad looks but I like em.
thinkpad w520
Intel Core i7-2720QM Processor (2.20GHz, 6MB L3)1
Genuine Windows 7 Professional 6412
15.6" FHD (1920 x 1080) LED Backlit Anti-Glare Display, Mobile Broadband Ready
NVIDIA Quadro 1000M Graphics with 2GB DDR3 Memory
8 GB PC3-10600 DDR3 SDRAM 1333MHz SODIMM Memory (2 DIMM)8
UltraNav with TrackPoint & touchpad plus Fingerprint reader
Dual RAID HDDs, 500 GB Hard Disk Drive, 7200rpm4
RAID via Bay Adapter5
9 cell Li-Ion Battery - 55++60
Bluetooth 3.0
ThinkPad b/g/n10
Integrated Mobile Broadband - Upgradable
1,835.10$ with discount.
Macbook Pro 2011
2.2GHz quad-core
Intel Core i7
4GB 1333MHz
750GB 5400-rpm1
Intel HD Graphics 3000
AMD Radeon HD 6750M with 1GB GDDR5
Built-in battery (7 hours)
Gonna probabli go macbook pro because of thunderbolt and most of mi editing stuff is mac. But, better screen, 8gb ram, 2 disks for less... dont know about the graphics card difference. Also, most people dont like thinkpad looks but I like em.
Discs
Am i right in thinking that window pc's rarely ship with an OS disc ? How do you make a fresh install without one ? I think you are encouraged to make a clone when you first use your machine if you don't your finished ? Also the apple hardware test is a pretty neat piece of kit for self diagnosing problems does this even exist in the windows world ? Also you have to allow for similar software to ilife which ships with a mac and it will never integrate so seamlessly with the OS. One more life saver i can think of is target disk mode does this exist on a windows machine ?
Am i right in thinking that window pc's rarely ship with an OS disc ? How do you make a fresh install without one ? I think you are encouraged to make a clone when you first use your machine if you don't your finished ? Also the apple hardware test is a pretty neat piece of kit for self diagnosing problems does this even exist in the windows world ? Also you have to allow for similar software to ilife which ships with a mac and it will never integrate so seamlessly with the OS. One more life saver i can think of is target disk mode does this exist on a windows machine ?
About 10 MBPs in the office -2010/2011 vintage. 3 have had HW faults, one is *seriously* bent (whole chassis: 1/4 inch near the ethernet weakpoint), even though the user is fairly careful with it. My own is slightly out of plane as seen when placed on a glass table. My boss keeps on having to get replacement batteries for his G4 (which is also bent and dented).
The 2007 era T60 Thinkpads are still going strong. I can lift mine up by the far corner of the screen and hold it horizontal without a problem.
People need to stop perpetuating the BS that Al is better than various plastic types. Just because *Apple* has problems with plastic cracking (e.g. MB), doesn't mean it's not a great engineering material.
Having said that, yes I prefer OS X.
I don't think that has a point. Just because Windows is only able to run fully 32Bit or fully 64Bit, it doesn't mean that's the only way to handle this. OSX is able to handle 64Bit- AND 32Bit-applications while the vast majority of the system core components run in 64Bit (just open Activity Monitor and watch the running processes). Only the kernel runs in 32Bit, due to the 32Bit-compatibility I just mentioned. 64Bit-applications running on OSX 10.6 make use of all the advantages 64Bit can offer.
That said, I don't see the advantage of having a OS that runs exclusively in 64Bit?
I'm new, and a refugee from the Windoze world..
Hello to everyone- I just became owner of a 2011 MPB 13" with the I5-
Prior to that I have been a personal computer user since the 80's and have run virtually every version of windows up until Vista (I know vista but would never run it)-
I recently coverted to MAC less than a year ago when I bought a used 2007 Macbook 2.16-
the things that people don't / can't quantify when comparing a windows machine vs a Mac machine. After being on Windows for so long, you just became accustomed to the wonky behavior, constant updates, viruses, sluggish / erratic performance and the early planned obsolescence that is Windows.
You open up your local Best Buy - whatever ad you see these wonderful deals on all these laptops that on paper have comparable specs to a Mac and in some cases can be up to 1/2 cheaper and you think "Wow, that's a good deal!"
They marketed that WIndoze box that way with all the specs published - that's the ONLY way it has a fighting chance against a Mac box- notice they never talk about Windows computing experience?
That's because it doesn't exist.
That is, until you pull you hair out just living with a Windows product. Ever since I converted to mac gone are the days of restarts to restore speed, various virus threats, itching to reinstall software because it's sluggish, bloatware everywhere, lockups and crashes and just erratic behavior that is just part of their deal.
The other thing is, as for "technologies"- how many times has a windows item been released using the general public as their quality testers? Seriously, look at Vista, Windows ME, SP3 for XP (for instance) and can you rightfully say that MSFT did their best research and development before releasing that POS?
Windows = bloat. It's also very annoying to use because of all the warnings it needs to give you because it's so prone to viruses and human error- that's another annoying fact of live with windows. It treats you like you are stupid.
There are instances where you legitimately need a windows machine- proprietary work software for instance - in that case you have no choice but to use one.
I would GLADLY pay extra for a Mac because of it's smoothness, reliablility, and even the especially the quality of the hardware compared to a Dell or whatever they have out there. I have used ONE Sony Vaio with Vista, and it worked well- problem was it a $3K laptop with huge ram that my ex GF's mother just happened to win somehow.
Windows boxes in the same price category as Mac are usually just crappy quality plastic cases and fall apart keyboards. To get something that approaches mac's basic standards will cost you not only lots more cash, but a lot of time commitment to fix it's various issues that always comes up.
Using a computer is a big part of most people's day- get something that works without hassle.
rjp
Hello to everyone- I just became owner of a 2011 MPB 13" with the I5-
Prior to that I have been a personal computer user since the 80's and have run virtually every version of windows up until Vista (I know vista but would never run it)-
I recently coverted to MAC less than a year ago when I bought a used 2007 Macbook 2.16-
the things that people don't / can't quantify when comparing a windows machine vs a Mac machine. After being on Windows for so long, you just became accustomed to the wonky behavior, constant updates, viruses, sluggish / erratic performance and the early planned obsolescence that is Windows.
You open up your local Best Buy - whatever ad you see these wonderful deals on all these laptops that on paper have comparable specs to a Mac and in some cases can be up to 1/2 cheaper and you think "Wow, that's a good deal!"
They marketed that WIndoze box that way with all the specs published - that's the ONLY way it has a fighting chance against a Mac box- notice they never talk about Windows computing experience?
That's because it doesn't exist.
That is, until you pull you hair out just living with a Windows product. Ever since I converted to mac gone are the days of restarts to restore speed, various virus threats, itching to reinstall software because it's sluggish, bloatware everywhere, lockups and crashes and just erratic behavior that is just part of their deal.
The other thing is, as for "technologies"- how many times has a windows item been released using the general public as their quality testers? Seriously, look at Vista, Windows ME, SP3 for XP (for instance) and can you rightfully say that MSFT did their best research and development before releasing that POS?
Windows = bloat. It's also very annoying to use because of all the warnings it needs to give you because it's so prone to viruses and human error- that's another annoying fact of live with windows. It treats you like you are stupid.
There are instances where you legitimately need a windows machine- proprietary work software for instance - in that case you have no choice but to use one.
I would GLADLY pay extra for a Mac because of it's smoothness, reliablility, and even the especially the quality of the hardware compared to a Dell or whatever they have out there. I have used ONE Sony Vaio with Vista, and it worked well- problem was it a $3K laptop with huge ram that my ex GF's mother just happened to win somehow.
Windows boxes in the same price category as Mac are usually just crappy quality plastic cases and fall apart keyboards. To get something that approaches mac's basic standards will cost you not only lots more cash, but a lot of time commitment to fix it's various issues that always comes up.
Using a computer is a big part of most people's day- get something that works without hassle.
rjp
In the laptop category, the two best are the MacBook Pro and ThinkPad. Widely acknowledged as two premium machines, each with high quality components. Both are very long lasting, having terrific keyboards, and can be identically configured.
The only exception being the common options that Apple still fails to offer such as 3G connectivity, fingerprint reader, encrypted hard drives etc.
If we compare pricing between these two, there is a heavy premium on the mac. It's just a bit less than one thousand dollars more than the ThinkPad. A fact that most mac users will never admit to. Since they claim theirs is so superior I don't know why they refuse to be honest.
Besides who cares it's only money.
While I dislike the obscene premium, I pay it because I enjoy my Macs.
And best of all my Apple Stock buys it for me anyway
The only exception being the common options that Apple still fails to offer such as 3G connectivity, fingerprint reader, encrypted hard drives etc.
If we compare pricing between these two, there is a heavy premium on the mac. It's just a bit less than one thousand dollars more than the ThinkPad. A fact that most mac users will never admit to. Since they claim theirs is so superior I don't know why they refuse to be honest.
Besides who cares it's only money.
While I dislike the obscene premium, I pay it because I enjoy my Macs.
And best of all my Apple Stock buys it for me anyway
In the laptop category, the two best are the MacBook Pro and ThinkPad. Widely acknowledged as two premium machines, each with high quality components. Both are very long lasting, having terrific keyboards, and can be identically configured.
The only exception being the common options that Apple still fails to offer such as 3G connectivity, fingerprint reader, encrypted hard drives etc.
If we compare pricing between these two, there is a heavy premium on the mac. It's just a bit less than one thousand dollars more than the ThinkPad. A fact that most mac users will never admit to. Since they claim theirs is so superior I don't know why they refuse to be honest.
Besides who cares it's only money.
While I dislike the obscene premium, I pay it because I enjoy my Macs.
And best of all my Apple Stock buys it for me anyway
The variable here being Windows itself. It takes a much stronger machine to get windows to work acceptably. That translates into cost.
The rest of the bells and whistles are just gimmicks- unless you are some road warrior and really like 3G - as for the fingerprint scanner?
Maybe for the old AOL fans. Wasn't a big deal to me.
rjp
You realize that most often, people don't consider what operating system and what it's built of as SPECS. Specs go to screen res, battery life, GPU, CPU, RAM, and HDD Space/Speed. Those are SPECS. Not whether it's shiny. Apple makes sleek computers of fine quality that often surpass your average windows machine. But spec wise, you will find cheaper and more powerful laptops running windows than OSX.
http://www.msimobile.com/level3_productpage.aspx?cid=6&id=283
If you put the 2820 2.3 in there like is an option on the 2.2 15" MBP 2011, you'd still be FAAAAAAAR under 2500 dollars. And the specs are much higher. Those are specs, not special features and apple beauty.
E.
Realistically
If we are all honest apple without doubt is a premium brand, I'd put it in the same league as designer clothes, fast cars and fine food, yes of course u can buy cheaper that's obvious but I'll give you my experiences: I used to use windows for years but id get through laptops and pc's at about 1 a year. In 2006 I bought my first MacBook pro and never looked back they just work. No problems with drivers no viruses (yet) ultra reliable. Last september I upgraded to the i7 MacBook pro 2.66 17 inch anti glare. It's brilliant. I'd rather save for another mac than ever buy a pc again. Every day I see people fed up with malfunctioning windows computers and while yes apple are more expensive they also make alot more sense.
IPhone 4 32gig 64 gig iPad 2 White MacBook pro i7 2.66 17 inch anti glare airport extreme, various iPods.
If we are all honest apple without doubt is a premium brand, I'd put it in the same league as designer clothes, fast cars and fine food, yes of course u can buy cheaper that's obvious but I'll give you my experiences: I used to use windows for years but id get through laptops and pc's at about 1 a year. In 2006 I bought my first MacBook pro and never looked back they just work. No problems with drivers no viruses (yet) ultra reliable. Last september I upgraded to the i7 MacBook pro 2.66 17 inch anti glare. It's brilliant. I'd rather save for another mac than ever buy a pc again. Every day I see people fed up with malfunctioning windows computers and while yes apple are more expensive they also make alot more sense.
IPhone 4 32gig 64 gig iPad 2 White MacBook pro i7 2.66 17 inch anti glare airport extreme, various iPods.
I like your analogy but sometimes designer stuff can be a ripoff. We've bought shoes at Payless to have them disintegrate 6 months later and then bought expensive Nike shoes with the same result.
So I agree that Apple is premium, but I'd add that Apple gear is not only premium but high quality. I've seen stats putting Apple in the "middle of the pack" for reliability but every spec I've seen says people love their Apple gear. That's a product of quality and company philosophy of making their customers happy.
For example, How much did it cost Apple to send that guy a free iPad with a sticky note that read "Apple said yes" after he returned his with a sticker that read "Wife said no". At most 500 bucks plus shipping. But the positive press coverage was better than millions of dollars poured into advertising.
When my son took his MBP in for liquid spilled on the keyboard, Apple didn't tell him to take a hike, they offered to fix it under AppleCare. I have had one isolated incident where Apple didn't do their best. I took an iPod Touch in to an Apple Store when it stopped working. They wanted to charge me the same amount I would wind up paying if I cracked the screen because they spent a long time looking at it with a magnifying glass and saw some orange stuff (probably lint from my shirt pocket) that they said was evidence of "liquid exposure". I left with my broken iPod, called AppleCare and explained my situation. They overruled the store and sent me a new iPod Touch. A few months later I purchased an iPad and a few months after that an iPhone. So even if something suspicious had been going on with my iPod Touch, Apple did the right thing both for me as a customer and for themselves financially when they replaced it as they got $700 more of my money within months of that decision.
So when people say Apple stuff is "designer" or "high quality", in general that is true but it's an oversimplification. Apple stuff is better because of the underlying philosophy of the company and it is that philosophy that drives customer perceptions of "designer" and "high quality".
I agree. As I installed that firm to protect my MBP on the outside then around the keyboard. When I did around the keyboard I got too close to the keys and they melted around the edges with the blow dryer. I was expecting to pay $200 for a keyboard, but when I got to the Apple store and explained what happened they replaced the keyboard for free! No questions asked! That made me a Apple customer for life no doubt.
I had a similar experience. A year ago my sons '07 MB had the palm rest crack issue. They replaced it, no questions. A couple months ago, same thing. Brought it in. I expected them to say no, or at least charge us. They said, nope...the last time they did it, they should have replaced the screen bezel; that's the cause of the crack. I said, wow...even on a 3 year old laptop? The guy said "Hey, there's nothing wrong with it otherwise, why pay for a new one when this one is perfectly fine otherwise?"
Like you; a customer for life. You typically don't get that service elsewhere. At least I haven't seen it...?
It seems to me that Apple is doing things based on common sense, which is something that really isn't practiced today unfortunately. This is how things should be done, but the fact that Apple is the only one that does them makes it seem bigger than it really is.
However, for your last comment about not getting that service anywhere else.... have you ever seen an actual company store? Like a Samsung, Toshiba, or Sony store? I"m sure they are out there (maybe?) but I haven't seen one yet.
This is a very, very big advantage that Apple has and something that no other company can do. They are all being sourced out to best buy, wallmart, etc. and when they do they turn into "just another PC". Yes specs matter, but presentation is just as important, which is a reason why Apple sells so many of its products.
This isn't true in the UK, alas. In the UK the store employees are rabid dogs, at least in London...
The only ones who have ever given me stellar customer service were foreigners, Yanks, Canucks, Europeans and Asians. The Brits really let Apple down but hey ho! I take it all on the chin, or whatever the expression is
I've been talking about this a tad in another thread...and been thinking about this a lot myself.
I need a power machine...I love
, I started with a powebook g4 in 07ish and never looked back.
But now I'm starting to worry...maybe this is just because of my financial state...maybe upgrading to the new iMac will " fix " this...but I have a hard time running EQ2 ( 7 year old game...but crappy coding ) in higher graphic settings...and when there are 12-16 other people near me ( fighting ) I have to put it on extreme performance...and I tried rift...I couldn't run it above the " low " settings...and even that started to get choppy.
I will be going to school for industrial design ( we design how a product looks, or a car body etc, it's all 3d intensive ). I will be needing a more powerful machine I think. From my understandings...I can build a tier 8 build from here: http://www.hardware-revolution.com/high-end-gaming-pc-q4-2010/ for far less then a base mac pro...and I believe ( please correct me if i'm wrong, I am a novice ) that the tier 8 build would be far more competitive for gaming / 3d design.
Then there is the hackintosh...but that seems like a NIGHTMARE to keep up to date and future proof.
Perhaps Mac Pros are competitive after the initial purchase of the machine?
Lately I've been thinking I'll have replace osx with linux...but I don't know.
I guess I'm just confused by the whole matter.
I need a power machine...I love
, I started with a powebook g4 in 07ish and never looked back. But now I'm starting to worry...maybe this is just because of my financial state...maybe upgrading to the new iMac will " fix " this...but I have a hard time running EQ2 ( 7 year old game...but crappy coding ) in higher graphic settings...and when there are 12-16 other people near me ( fighting ) I have to put it on extreme performance...and I tried rift...I couldn't run it above the " low " settings...and even that started to get choppy.
I will be going to school for industrial design ( we design how a product looks, or a car body etc, it's all 3d intensive ). I will be needing a more powerful machine I think. From my understandings...I can build a tier 8 build from here: http://www.hardware-revolution.com/high-end-gaming-pc-q4-2010/ for far less then a base mac pro...and I believe ( please correct me if i'm wrong, I am a novice ) that the tier 8 build would be far more competitive for gaming / 3d design.
Then there is the hackintosh...but that seems like a NIGHTMARE to keep up to date and future proof.
Perhaps Mac Pros are competitive after the initial purchase of the machine?
Lately I've been thinking I'll have replace osx with linux...but I don't know.
I guess I'm just confused by the whole matter.
People say this all the time, but it really doesn't mean much. The reality is, there are only a small handful of chipsets and components used among most all PCs (specifically, the motherboard makers), and the combinations of them aren't really great enough the create this mythical 'Frankenstein hardware' problem. When talking laptops, the pool of actual component types shrinks even more.
As long as components have current, stable drivers for the platform, then there's no big deal about the so-called 'abundance' of PC hardware.
And most user-changeable parts are as varied between Macs as they are PCs- IE: the exact same brand choices of hard drives, RAM, input devices and peripherals, and in the case of the later, exactly the same reliance on adequate drivers for the OS.
Basically, it would be just as false an argument to say a Mac is handicapped by it's given combination of say, nVidia graphics, Intel Processor, Foxconn motherboard, Realtek audio, Crucial RAM, Seagate hard drive, Logitech mouse, Epson printer etc. etc. as any given PC with mostly the same components/perifs.
Maybe the cheapest/most off-market PC one can possibly find might stray so far off the pool of tried and true components that people will run into all these so called 'Frankenstein hardware' problems, but it's not anywhere near as common as people tend to trot out in these hardware debates.
No it doesn't.
Windows 7 runs just fine on a two year old Atom netbook that's about as weak a CPU as one can get.
Windows 7 runs just fine on my 2007 vintage HTPC that pumps out perfect Bluray and high-def video to my 1080p HDTV. Even back in 2007 when I first built the HTPC, it wasn't anywhere near the 'high end' even then because I wanted it silent/energy efficient.
PC users biased against Macs definitely have a tendency to spout total falsehoods about Macs and OSX, but it's only fair the point out the exact opposite is true of some Mac people constantly going on with total Windows falsehoods like none of us might happen to have used it anytime lately.