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mechanize

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Jan 2, 2020
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MAC PRO 2010 5,1 UPGRADE PLAN

EXISTING SPECS

• 2x X5650 6-Core Processor
• 4x 8GB: 32 GB 1333 MHz RAM
• 2x 1TB HDD (Mechanical)
• HD 5770
• OS High Sierra

UPGRADE OPTIONS

CPU & RAM

• 2x Xeon X5690 CPU 3.46GHz
• 2x 32GB, 4x 8GB : Total 96GB

STORAGE
• 1x PCIe SSD : Samsung 860 EVO on OWC Accelsior S OWCSSDACL6G.S
• 1x PCI NVMe : Samsung 970 EVO on Delock PCI Express x4 Card NVMe M.2
• 2x 1TB HDD (Mechanical) for Data

GRAPHICS CARD:
• Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 560 or RX580

OTHER
• USB 3.0 Interface Card
• OS Mojave

I will appreciate opinions and suggestions for better alternatives and further improvements if possible.
 
MAC PRO 2010 5,1 UPGRADE PLAN

EXISTING SPECS

• 2x X5650 6-Core Processor
• 4x 8GB: 32 GB 1333 MHz RAM
• 2x 1TB HDD (Mechanical)
• HD 5770
• OS High Sierra

UPGRADE OPTIONS

CPU & RAM

• 2x Xeon X5690 CPU 3.46GHz
• 2x 32GB, 4x 8GB : Total 96GB

STORAGE
• 1x PCIe SSD : Samsung 860 EVO on OWC Accelsior S OWCSSDACL6G.S
• 1x PCI NVMe : Samsung 970 EVO on Delock PCI Express x4 Card NVMe M.2
• 2x 1TB HDD (Mechanical) for Data

GRAPHICS CARD:
• Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 560 or RX580

OTHER
• USB 3.0 Interface Card
• OS Mojave

I will appreciate opinions and suggestions for better alternatives and further improvements if possible.

When I first starting experiencing the personal computing revolution , as Apple used to say , back in the late 1970's and early 1980's , we bought the gear first and then tried our best to give it something useful to do ( vulgarly called work ) in order to justify the sticker shock .

Today , we don't do it that way .

Today , we ask a simple question first .

What do you want to do with this computer ?

We then build a specific computer configuration to handle the job ...
 
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I will appreciate opinions and suggestions for better alternatives and further improvements if possible.

This is the thing...

What do you want to do with this computer ?

We then build a specific computer configuration to handle the job ...

If you are performing tasks that can be accelerated by the new instructions inside modern CPUs (e.g., quicksync, crypto, etc.) you may find even a modern laptop CPU a lot faster, for example.

The X series Xeons are getting on a bit now... I suspect that they do not support a number of modern acceleration instructions in the more recent intel CPUs.

Not saying buy a laptop.... but I'd definitely be checking what software you plan to run for whether or not it can be accelerated on modern hardware. Because sometimes the speed up can be dramatic. Like 30x performance speed up for AES acceleration instructions for example. And you simply aren't going to get that jump with a clock speed or CPU core count increase. But again... it is application specific. It really depends what you're trying to do on this machine.

The other consideration is that if your current 10 year old hardware dies - what is your game plan? If you're tipping money into this system, will you be able to re-use those parts on a replacement?
 
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Agree that at this point depending on what you're trying to do it's not really economical to pump more money into an old machine.

My machine would definitely be faster if I switched from SATA to PCIe storage, for example, but that's pumping money into a system that's still slower than a Mac mini.
 
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If you are performing tasks that can be accelerated by the new instructions inside modern CPUs (e.g., quicksync, crypto, etc.) you may find even a modern laptop CPU a lot faster, for example.

This is the thing , indeed . And you're closer to the mark than the average bear is . Simply speaking :

Some 15 years ago a tragedy struck the computer industry . We are still dealing with it since the underlying issue hasn't gone away . Historically , the way to increase processor performance was to find a method of increasing the juice flowing through the circuits . The more juice , the faster instruction cycles were completed . ( This is the MHz , GHz , etc . frequency ratings of silicon ) . Every year there was improvement . Also , occurring at the same time , there were better materials being used and improved circuit designs . But it really just boiled down to "how much juice can we force through the circuit to do things quicker ." And that process continued to work just fine for three decades , from the humble 4 bit 740 kHZ Intel 4004 ( 1971 ) until the Pentium 3s ( 1999-2007 ) . And then one fine day all those highly paid engineers discovered that their magic ... simply ... evaporated ... away . The product was the Pentium 4 and Intel was happy to predict with fanfare the sky's the limit with higher frequencies . Why not ? It worked for the last 35 years , after all . But the Pentium 4s never got as high as the 10 GHz ( ! ) Intel expected , the top chip never going beyond 3.8 GHz . What happened ? Electrically speaking , pushing on a string . A very messy string that started to hurt its environment . The more juice that was pumped into the circuits to obtain new , higher levels of frequency , the more juice that spilled outside doing nothing good . The technical term for this event is power leakage . This leakage started to make the chip pointlessly hot . Heat is the great enemy of electronics . It can reduce performance and definitely will reduce durability . So all this additional juice not only did not do any good , it was actually harmful . Intel went into a panic . The gravy train screeched to a halt .

How did Intel respond ? By continuing to shrink dies . And placing more than one die on a substrate . By reducing the upper frequency expectations . By building processors of processors , you might say , for this is a physical solution to the leakage problem . The term that was coined was core . And also by integrating clever optimization features called processor extensions and similar technologies into the silicon that software coders could take advantage of , instead of simply allowing a process to complete using brute force ( higher frequencies ) . It was the beginning of the multicore processor era ( circa 2005 ) .

If the power leakage hadn't happened and they could have built safely within the laws of physics , we'd have single core ( they wouldn't even need to use the term ) 75 GHz Pentium 14 chips today with maybe little else but MMX15 technology extensions and a piddling amount of energy savings features . Oh , and really cool 3M Fluorinert FC-500 liquid cooling systems and Super Graphite TIM technology . But it did and we don't .

Instead , in reality , we have relatively slowly clocked 56 core Xeons with a list of integrated processor extensions ( like AVX512 ) the length of your arm and some pretty impressive interconnects .

As throAU pointed out above , modern processor features and extensions really can assist with the running of select programs optimized for them . And these features are one of the results of the power leakage crisis that started 15 years ago . To place it into perspective , lets look at two chips . One before the power leakage crisis and one made well after it began .

1 ) Intel Pentium III 1.2 GHz ( introduced 2001 )
Processor features :
MMX instructions
SSE / Streaming SIMD Extensions
Low power features

--------------------------------------------------------

2 ) Xeon W-3275M ( introduced 2019 )
Processor features :
MMX MMX Extension
EMMX Extended MMX Extension
SSE Streaming SIMD Extensions
SSE2 Streaming SIMD Extensions 2
SSE3 Streaming SIMD Extensions 3
SSSE3 Supplemental SSE3
SSE4.1 Streaming SIMD Extensions 4.1
SSE4.2 Streaming SIMD Extensions 4.2
AVX Advanced Vector Extensions
AVX2 Advanced Vector Extensions 2
AVX-512 Advanced Vector 512-bit (2 Units)
AVX512F AVX-512 Foundation
AVX512CD AVX-512 Conflict Detection
AVX512BW AVX-512 Byte and Word
AVX512DQ AVX-512 Double and Quad
AVX512VL AVX-512 Vector Length
AVX512VNNI AVX-512 Vector Neural Network Instructions
ABM Advanced Bit Manipulation
BMI1 Bit Manipulation Instruction Set 1
BMI2 Bit Manipulation Instruction Set 2
FMA3 3-Operand Fused-Multiply-Add
AES AES Encryption Instructions
RdRand Hardware RNG
ADX Multi-Precision Add-Carry
CLMUL Carry-less Multiplication Extension
F16C 16-bit Floating Point Conversion
x86-16 16-bit x86
x86-32 32-bit x86
x86-64 64-bit x86
Real Real Mode
Protected Protected Mode
SMM System Management Mode
FPU Integrated x87 FPU
NX No-eXecute
HT Hyper-Threading
TBT 2.0 Turbo Boost Technology 2.0
TBMT 3.0 Turbo Boost Max Technology 3.0
EIST Enhanced SpeedStep Technology
SST Speed Shift Technology
TXT Trusted Execution Technology (SMX)
vPro Intel vPro
VT-x VT-x (Virtualization)
VT-d VT-d (I/O MMU virtualization)
EPT Extended Page Tables (SLAT)
TSX Transactional Synchronization Extensions
MPX Memory Protection Extensions
Secure Key Secure Key Technology
SMEP OS Guard Technology
VMD Volume Management Device
DL Boost Deep Learning Boost
IPT Identity Protection Technology

See what Intel did ? If they couldn't make the silicon faster , they made it more complex and multicored .
 
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Very interesting feedback...
I'm using it for video editing (FHD) and graphic design (adobe suite) and trying to max-out the specs...
What other alternatives are?
 
My Mac Pro 5.1 suddenly died the other day - It's old tech and would be too costly to fix, so I've ordered a Mac Mini, Thunderbolt 3 enclosure for drives, and an eGPU.

I'd recently had a HDD fail, so purchased a couple of new HDDs and a new SSD, on top of the new video card I purchased last year to be able to run Mojave. All of these can be used with the new Mac Mini!

My suggestion would be to look at something similar - your Mac Pro may last a day, or week, or years. Such as a shame as the Mac Pro was absolutely the best computer I've ever owned.
 
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Very interesting feedback...
I'm using it for video editing (FHD) and graphic design (adobe suite) and trying to max-out the specs...
What other alternatives are?

If you can hold off, i'd wait for the Macbook/Mac Mini refresh (new intel CPUs with AI instructions, etc. are due any day now) and try to find benchmarks against the type of work you will be running.

I'd suggest a modern mac mini 6 core would already significantly outperform your current mac pro in terms of CPU (yes, there's been that much of a jump since 2010 - especially given the mini has intel Quicksync for video and Xeons don't). But if you can wait a few months, we're on the cusp of new hardware.
 
My Mac Pro 5.1 suddenly died the other day - It's old tech and would be too costly to fix, so I've ordered a Mac Mini, Thunderbolt 3 enclosure for drives, and an eGPU.

I'd recently had a HDD fail, so purchased a new a couple of new HDDs and a new SSD, on top of the new video card I purchased last year to be able to run Mojave. All of these can be used with the new Mac Mini!

My suggestion would be to look at something similar - your Mac Pro may last a day, or week, or years. Such as a shame as the Mac Pro was the absolutely the best computer I've ever owned.

Why not fix it yourself ? It's not for nothing its called an "open architecture" machine . Grab a copy of the service source , three or four hand tools , access to a compressor , some thermal paste and learn about ESD and how to protect electronics . cMP repair cost is mostly your own sweat equity these days .
 
Why not fix it yourself ? It's not for nothing its called an "open architecture" machine . Grab a copy of the service source , three or four hand tools , access to a compressor , some thermal paste and learn about ESD and how to protect electronics . cMP repair cost is mostly your own sweat equity these days .

Geez. You're assuming a lot. I've been pulling apart, fixing, and upgrading computers since the late eighties.

I didn't want to do a TLDR about my machine, but...

My Mac Pro first ‘died’ last July. After checking the status lights for PSU, Backplane and Logic Board and following other Apple Service procedures I stripped it down to board level for a complete clean and inspection (but did not remove the processor as you don't need to pull it down for power tests). I put it all back together and… it magically rebooted!

Fast forward to last week and it stopped again (same problem of no power) I swapped out another known-good PSU and then went through the full Apple Service procedure again. After a few days of tinkering I managed to get power back for around 10-12 seconds, but it shut off again.

There are various reports of older Mac Pros doing what mine is doing and nobody has been able to fix it. Sure, I could sink money into ‘testing’ new boards, but then another component could go on this ‘old’ machine.

Believe me Snow Tiger, I’d ideally like to have my beloved Mac Pro up and running again and then get a new machine at my leisure. I’ll be keeping it to tinker with at some stage (or part out) but for now I need to be up and running again, and a more modern architecture machine is my option.
 
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Fast forward to last week and it stopped again (same problem of no power) I swapped out another known-good PSU and then went through the full Apple Service procedure again. After a few days of tinkering I managed to get power back for around 10-12 seconds, but it shut off again.

There are various reports of older Mac Pros doing what mine is doing and nobody has been able to fix it. Sure, I could sink money into ‘testing’ new boards, but then another component could go on this ‘old’ machine.

My bet would be dead/dying capacitors or some other component on the board.

As you say, sure you could go find another board, or spend the time, energy and money to go trying to replace caps and whatever else, but you're putting time and energy into a box that will be outperformed by a mini... which will come with warranty...
 
What other alternatives are?
I think you already have this, and are looking to enhance it. If that's the case, here's what I recommend:
- Consider dual x5680. Considerably less expensive.
- Consider 6x16 for memory. This will offset the slight performance loss from above, and leave some headroom if you need more memory.
- Unless you already have an SSD, why buy one to put it on PCIe? The SATA interface is 6Gbps. NVMe on PCIe is 1400+ MBps. And the prices are essentially the same. If you already have the SSD plug it into the "other" SATA connector in the optical bay. No need to mount it.
- If you're doing video, get the Sapphire Pulse RX 580 8GB. I can tell you it works great.
- You're probably loading in SD cards. Get a USB3 PCIe card.

Save some money for bigger HDDs. Video chews these things up.
[correction: Stated 6Gbps for SATA, above. cMP is SATA-2, or 3Gbps. @Soba thanks for catching this.]
 
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- Consider 6x16 for memory. This will offset the slight performance loss from above, and leave some headroom if you need more memory.

@kohlson Great post.

@mechanize To emphasize this point, your system will perform optimally with identical DIMMs installed in sets of 3. Six identical DIMMs is the best way to go, if it makes financial sense. Unless your application will benefit from 128GB RAM versus 96GB, leave DIMM slots 4 & 8 empty.

- Unless you already have an SSD, why buy one to put it on PCIe? The SATA interface is 6Gbps. NVMe on PCIe is 1400+ MBps. And the prices are essentially the same. If you already have the SSD plug it into the "other" SATA connector in the optical bay. No need to mount it.

This is the only part I don’t agree with.

Edit: After re-reading, I think I misinterpreted. My apologies! It looks like we’re in agreement after all.

SATA SSDs perform very poorly compared to PCIe NVMe blade SSDs, which can have real-world performance of over 5000MBps when RAIDed and 3000MBps non-RAIDed. (Also, the SATA ports in the Mac Pro operate at 3Gbps, but this is immaterial; 6Gbps is not much faster in practice.)

I moved from SATA to a Highpoint SSD7101A with Samsung 970 Pros and the performance improvement was ridiculous.

If it makes sense for your budget, get away from the SATA SSDs and look into PCIe blade SSDs. Check out this thread for a lot of information and benchmarks:


Having said that, I’ll reiterate what others have already said: This is a great system (and I certainly love mine), but consider carefully how you’re spending your money on what is now very old technology. 96GB RAM and new blade SSDs (plus a controller card to hold them) are not cheap.
 
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Very interesting feedback...
I'm using it for video editing (FHD) and graphic design (adobe suite) and trying to max-out the specs...
What other alternatives are?

Regarding the upgrade path, I really think it comes down to the nature of your business. If you work in a high volume, high-speed production environment or in a situation where time is very constrained, something new might make sense.
However, many users here on the forum are semi-professionals, enthusiasts, fan-boys and hobby- or part-time artists, then you could very easily squeeze three more years out of your setup with next to nothing in regards to cost/cash.

Since I think you fall more into group #2, I would do the following:

#1 Renew at least the GPU to a newer one because this gives you the capability to install at least Mojave.
Mojave is the last macOS that runs 32-bit programs. It would be very attractive to have one computer as backup as well as older software anyways. Mojave is newer and very stable compared to HS. -> Highly recommended.

#2 Go cheap on the Ram upgrade, -> I would recommend using a total of 6 Ram modules (2x3 per CPU side) for the triple channel advantage. Either go for two more 8GB modules of the exact same specs you have (48) or sell the current modules and buy a set of 6x 16GB modules for your rig. (96)

#3 If you have a SATA SSD already, I would go for the Accelsior S adapter to have a little more speed. If you do not have the SATA SSD, I would absolutely not buy one and go for the faster PCIe SSDs these days. Once you did the firmware upgrade of the cMP 5.1 to 144.0.0xx for NVMe support, you are good to go for Mojave and NVMe SSD's. Samsung is best regardless of the model. I personally use the I/O Crest PCIe card with dual SSDs which performs great. I am very happy with my choice. This way you can start out cheap with only one NVMe blade and you can add one more blade in a year from now. In case you go with a larger blade and a single PCIe adapter, you will need a good heatsink. See if you can find an adapter with a heatsink such as the Anglewings PX1 or similar.

With this package, I would estimate your cost as follows:

- AMD Radeon 560/580 on ebay for 120-150$
- Two more 8GB Ram sticks on ebay for 30-50$
- PCIe Adapter 30-150$ (single or dual)
-NVMe blade Samsung 100$

For about 400 - 500 $ you can get three more years out of your current setup. You will have full Mojave support from Apple and you have the opportunity to install Catalina (once all the bugs are gone(!!!) with the Dosdude firmware down the road.

I would do this because it will buy you a lot more time. Apple will introduce a brand new iMac with a major re-design and slimmer bezzles at some time. There are a lot of interesting Apple toys coming down the pipe. A new iMac Pro2 (XDR) is around the corner as well, and Apple discusses to leave Intel behind as well. There are a lot of things happening,
it's not time to leave the 5.1 yet in my opinion. The second-hand market will look outstanding a year from now. Keep your powder dry, don't spend a ton of money into the 5.1, - but do the minimum to keep it afloat which buys you more time.

Single Adapter aqua computer link:


In case you have several SATA SSD's and a need for USB-C: (Available Feb.2020)

 
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See what Intel did ? If they couldn't make the silicon faster , they made it more complex and multicored .
Intel had been making the x86 processors more complex from the start. It didn't just begin when they hit the power limits of increasing clock speeds. Here are a few, high level improvements to the x86 processor line which began long before power limits (this is not an exhaustive list):
  • Addition of new instructions
  • Addition of protected mode
  • Addition of virtual 8086 mode
  • Expansion of internal registers and data pathways
  • Addition of internal MMU
  • Addition of internal cache
  • Addition of an internal FPU
  • Addition of multiple execution units
All of these occurred prior to reaching the power limits you refer to. Yes, clock speed was, and still is, one of the ways to achieve better performance. But it wasn't the only means.

With todays process technology I imagine Intel could make an 80386 processor exceeding 5 GHz.
 
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