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Mac Pro And Bluray Speculation
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Meh, Apple came out with that Express Card slot for the MacBook Pro kind of early as well...but I'm with most people in arguing that a blue-ray drive won't see the light of day in Apple computers until early 2007.
Chef Medeski said:So, how long till it comes to laptops?
And on top of that, its only going to be a viewer, right? I mean have they created any Blu-ray burners, yet?
I really don't want to buy a Macbook Pro until it has Merom, 802.11n, and blue-ray, cause I know those are all going to be standard in less than a year and I can't afford to have a crippled laptop for 3 yrs.
Hopefully it won't be too far, I've saved enough cash.
Not long, as others have said its for sale for the desktops and I know that HP or someone has put and HD DVD player in a laptop
Edit: Sony is selling VAIO laptops with Blue Ray players !
wmmk said:
I think there are about 20-30 titles available for both BluRay and HDDVD, though I know I only saw a small selection at Best Buy. They were all priced around $24.99. Perfectly reasonsable and comparable to how the launch of standard DVDs went, though I think those had a higher launch price. I rememver movies debuting at $30 bucks. Players started around $700 i think.
AvSRoCkCO1067 said:
I'm not so sure that 802.11n will necessarily be out as soon as we think. Everything out so far claiming to be it is Pre-N and the standard is not finalized. Although Intel's Santa Rosa chipset is supposed to include it, the standard did not pass last time around and the next vote as far as I can tell is after the introduction date for the Santa Rosa chipset, which will have the 800mt/s FSB version of Merom (and the new socket). Still, i'm with you on that hope. I would love to see Blu-Ray in my macs. Better still if we could get both BR and HD-DVD as BTO in the towers and pick one for the MBPs.
Of course I am really hoping apple gets behind new technologies as fast as they have in the past, particularly in storage formats and interfaces. (BR, HD-DVD, and other future formats that are emerging that may supplant those both quickly for portable discs, SAS/Sata3g/sataII for HD interfaces.
AvSRoCkCO1067 said:
Good point, and this isn't just with Express Card, either. Apple was an early adopter with 802.11b (with the original iBook, I think). They were early to drop the floppy drive, too.
I for one would love a Blu-Ray drive, but I understand that others might not. They should make it a BTO option.
Silentwave said:
I agree - sadly. I believe the 802.11n will be slower to market than I would like - but am somewhat excited that Bluray is on it's way. I don't look forward to the format wars, but think bluray is a step towards a much bigger trend in high capacity portable media technology.
As long as tech companies find a way to incorporate these technologies in the market place,,. in other words I think the biggest obstacle to the advances in portable storage media will be tech companies apprehension to adopt technology that makes current offerings or recent offerings obsolete... complicated market but it could be the biggest obstacle to advancement.
ibook30 said:
What i'm worried about is if this whole format war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray turns out to be really worthless and end up with neither format winning and instead having both supplanted by further formats. it would be like trying to put betamax up against laserdisc then having DVDs come to market
.There are great things coming though- future discs, future mass storage too. HDs may be on their way out soon enough for speed reasons. one thing i'm keeping an eye on is ferroelectric memory, which might also make HD-DVD/Bluray etc. partly obsolete as a storage format- useful primarily for video media only.
iris_failsafe said:
I think Blu-Ray should have been out 3 years ago. There have been HD displays for reasonable price for some time now, but nothing to really use them with. 3 years ago you would probably have been right saying it's too early, but still IMHO it would have been great if Blu-Ray were released together with the G5's.
It's so sad to think that Blu-Ray shouldn't be here now, because it is still rather expensive. Everything is, until they can produce larger volumes. Using this kind of "too early" thinking, we would have nothing ever released. How cool would that be
Jbook said:
There will be more media once there are more players, and there will be more players once there is more media. Which goes first? Players, naturally. Apple and the rest of the industry will just have to begin selling the players, and then the content will follow. Very soon I'd guess. The new Blu-Ray media can be sold at premium, so I think there will be a lot of discs to buy once certain threshold of players have been installed.
Silentwave said:What i'm worried about is if this whole format war between HD-DVD and Blu-ray turns out to be really worthless and end up with neither format winning and instead having both supplanted by further formats. it would be like trying to put betamax up against laserdisc then having DVDs come to market
There are great things coming though- future discs, future mass storage too. HDs may be on their way out soon enough for speed reasons. one thing i'm keeping an eye on is ferroelectric memory, which might also make HD-DVD/Bluray etc. partly obsolete as a storage format- useful primarily for video media only.
Excellent points, and concerns. I think the format wars will be mitigated by tech companies desire to make a dollar and the markets inability to handle too many choices and price points vs. value.
It's not impossible that the bluray/ HD DVD conflict will be supplanted by new technology - but it will become a regional issue (Asia vs Europe or N America) and/or price against value issue .. ultimately leaving the consumer with two or three choices.... no matter how fast the technology advances. "The market" is unlikely to handle more than 2 or 3 choices. (I am speaking of the consumer market - a seperate market for the technocracy will allow more choices for niche markets.... I hope)
Let's see what happens- it'll be an interesting ride.
On the 802.11n front- to deviate from the thread again - if Apple and other traditional tech companies do not get behind this - it will leave an opening for telecom/cable companies like Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon - all of whom are delivering faster and faster connection speeds to the (residential)consumer's front door .... Verizon's fiber optic system gives faster download and upload times than previous options, so they are creating a need for faster home networks.
Apple is beginning to compete with telcoms for the communication dollar (iChat AV and ventures into cell phones) - so telcoms might strike back by offering machines or networking cards that work with these advancing high speed internets. I dunno.
p.s. (Silentwave) I am reading about ferroelectric tech - and it is fascinating. Glad you mentioned it!
I'm going to have to give this one a big negative.
The problem with either HD-DVD or Bluray is that neither is a standard in the next generation of DVDs.
I would not want my next Mac to have a Bluray drive and find out several months later that HD-DVD ended up becoming the standard. Which in turn would lead to Bluray not having any support.
This is all Sony's fault. If they learned anything from the Betamax, they should know that when ever they try to standardize a technology, they fail.
This is way too soon to call.
The problem with either HD-DVD or Bluray is that neither is a standard in the next generation of DVDs.
I would not want my next Mac to have a Bluray drive and find out several months later that HD-DVD ended up becoming the standard. Which in turn would lead to Bluray not having any support.
This is all Sony's fault.
If they learned anything from the Betamax, they should know that when ever they try to standardize a technology, they fail.This is way too soon to call.
ibook30 said:
802.11n I could care less about right now. I'm sure wherever I end up at college will go to it eventually, but i'll do most of my stuff wired methinks
What we REALLY need is 10-gigabit ethernet standard. Gigabit is now becoming standard among too many companies! apple needs to lead the way into the future!
The high speed interfaces of the future are going to be verrrry nice. I wonder if we'll have infiniband as an option instead of just fibrechannel.
Chef Medeski said:So, how long till it comes to laptops?
And on top of that, its only going to be a viewer, right? I mean have they created any Blu-ray burners, yet?
I really don't want to buy a Macbook Pro until it has Merom, 802.11n, and blue-ray, cause I know those are all going to be standard in less than a year and I can't afford to have a crippled laptop for 3 yrs.
Hopefully it won't be too far, I've saved enough cash.
I am in the same boat. Want All of that, a better graphics chip and the ability to upgrade direct from apple a 160 gb hard drive internal.
I Honestly don't believe it should take too long to include in the mac pro or macbook pro, Sony currently has a tower and a laptop both with Blu-Ray. so lets get both types of devices to get this.
iMikeT said:I'm going to have to give this one a big negative.
The problem with either HD-DVD or Bluray is that neither is a standard in the next generation of DVDs.
.....
This is all Sony's fault.
This is way too soon to call.
Too soon to call is right.
I forgot about Sony's history in this field...
they have some challenges,,,, but the way this plays out in the DVD/ Home Entertainment market is a problem....Unless.... the DVD/ Home Entertainment market continues to converge with the PC market.. (I know I have used the word "market" too much tonight, my apologies) Perhaps the high cost of bluray DVD players will make a 30 inch iMac with bluray more attractive for the elite who want a cool new TV to play fancy DVDs on, and surf the internets while checking email from the couch. (eventually the rest of us will afford this... just a theory). But there is definitely a couple of trends likely to converge here, and soon - in the next three years , I thinks.
You won't see a blu-ray or HD-DVD burner in a Laptop (erm, notebook) for some time. Why? Simple; the battery would drain before it could burn a full disk.
We'll have to wait for at least 4x burning, probably a lot more though, before we see em in laptops.
and Wireless "N"? psh, I'm still using "B".
We'll have to wait for at least 4x burning, probably a lot more though, before we see em in laptops.
and Wireless "N"? psh, I'm still using "B".
The only Mac Pro model that will have Blu-Ray will be the top of the line machine, as was the case when DVD-R was first introduced. If you remember, it was the G4 733 Mhz, right before the Quicksilvers came out. People who buy the top of the line machines rarely care abou the cost.
dont forget that there are alot of backers of bluray.
Board of Directors include Dell Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics Inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corp.; Panasonic (Matsushita Electric); Pioneer Corp.; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corp.; Sony Corp.; TDK Corp.; Thomson; Twentieth Century Fox; and Walt Disney Pictures and Television
and apple
Board of Directors include Dell Inc.; Hewlett Packard Company; Hitachi, Ltd.; LG Electronics Inc.; Mitsubishi Electric Corp.; Panasonic (Matsushita Electric); Pioneer Corp.; Royal Philips Electronics; Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.; Sharp Corp.; Sony Corp.; TDK Corp.; Thomson; Twentieth Century Fox; and Walt Disney Pictures and Television
and apple
I think it will be at least 12 more months before bluray shows up in an Apple machine - at least as a standard. The only real hint I have seen is that they already let you author the HD-DVD spec video in DVD SP. Maybe because the Bluray specs werent done in time for that release though.
Bluray (or Blu-ray - not sure how to write it yet) will win because it sounds way cooler to say 'Bluray' than 'HD-DVD'
And we all know how important a name can be - can you say 'MacBook'?
And we all know how important a name can be - can you say 'MacBook'?
swingerofbirch
macrumors 68040
I don't understand why anyone would complain about Apple not waiting and including as a BTO option. If that's the case it wouldn't affect the price of any machine you want with a standard DVD burner.
To say not to include it because of price would mean we would wait forever for new techology! You could say that Sony shouldn't produce set-top Blu-ray players now because they're too expensive!
We have early adopters to thank for the prices eventually going down! The more are sold, the farther the prices will be able to drop.
The turning point may come even faster with PS3.
I think this transition will happen even faster than with VHS to DVD. The US is full of millionaires and people with enough credit card debt to act like they are. They have plasma HDTVs and are going to want Blu-ray when they hear it's the only way to see 1080p full length movies on those fancy screens.
To say not to include it because of price would mean we would wait forever for new techology! You could say that Sony shouldn't produce set-top Blu-ray players now because they're too expensive!
We have early adopters to thank for the prices eventually going down! The more are sold, the farther the prices will be able to drop.
The turning point may come even faster with PS3.
I think this transition will happen even faster than with VHS to DVD. The US is full of millionaires and people with enough credit card debt to act like they are. They have plasma HDTVs and are going to want Blu-ray when they hear it's the only way to see 1080p full length movies on those fancy screens.
longofest said:
The BDR-101 is actually a writer as well as a reader, and to be fair at $1000 [or rather around £650.00 over this side of the pond] it's pretty well priced when considering the cost of the first batch of DVD writers, eg. the Pioneer DVR-S201 authoring drive that retailed at a whacking cost of £12,000! General media writers were by definition significantly cheaper, but I recall purchasing our first DVD-R writer at a cost of around £350.00, with DVD-R5 blank media at around £15.00 a pop - so the economies of scale, etc., IMO makes BD at a pretty good starting point.
As for the Sony BD story I feel a lot of people are indeed watching how well the PS3 takes off to then try and validate the outcome and success of BD. But as you rightly said it's historic and as with the PS2 being such a huge success story which then solidified the consumer need for DVD as a new medium; certainly in Japan the green lights shone very brightly for DVD as a consequence of the PS2 success story!
But all in all personally speaking I hope BD wins; from a technical viewpoint it's able to offer a lot of new and quite exciting features that aren't possible on HD-DVD. And I know my next statement is probably going to cause controversy but HD-DVD is [in simple terms] simply a DVD-Video, but with larger capacity! I know that's generalising A LOT!!
Yes, HD-DVD requires a lot less re-tooling for replication houses, which in turn means it's cheaper to bring to market BUT BD has a lot to offer and I hope and prey it's given a chance!
Anyway, here's to hoping...
I personally would love to see both formats fall flat on their asses. Both sides are way too stubborn to standardize and are expecting consumers to waste money on one side or the other, just to have their super-expensive players become paperweights when a standard is picked.
Not to mention, the DRM is so restrictive its not even funny. Especially on Blueray. It is rediculous that if you use an analog connection or a non-secured digital connection that blueray down-samples and then up-samples the video to distort it so you cannot somehow make a digital copy. Thats not how the professional pirates duplicate discs! Morons, all they are doing is once again hurting consumers. Blueray players even phone home to tell Sony what you've been watching and download new encryption keys incase someone broke the keys like they did with CSS. Sony has assumed way too much control with Blueray, so if I'd have to pick either format I'd go with HD-DVD. Lets not forget Microsoft is backing HD-DVD on the X-Box 360. Last week when I was at the game store, they said the add-on drive would be coming soon for around $100. Thats alot less than a blueray player. Heck, when combined with this fall's xbox price cuts (we all know its going to happen with the ps3 release), it will be significantly less than buying a PS3 for a blueray player.
We've seen it with Betamax, MiniDisc, MemoryStick, etc. Sony doesn't play well with others, they like their own formats. Heck, take a look at the Sony DRM fiasco from last year with the rootkit CDs. Do you really trust Sony to be checking in on what Blueray discs you are playing and verifying your encryption keys on a dailybasis? There are very few features in Blueray which are consumer friendly.
Like I said, HD-DVD and Blueray both suck in my opinion, too many DRM controls, too expensive, not enough difference really over DVD for most people....
So.......back to the main topic, what do I want Apple to do?
Nothing, don't include either. I knew someone who felt very betrayed when he purchased a PowerMac with DVD-RAM drive. He was convinced because Apple chose that drive that it was where the industry was headed. A year later he could barely find media for it and he couldn't use the discs on anyone elses machines. He actually has always been a pro-mac person, preaching to everyone, but that absolutely infuriated him.
Until there is a standard, Apple should stay out of the way. It doesn't matter if they put it in the highend mac or not, people say people spending that much don't care.........thats not true. They do care, they usually spend that much extra to get a job done with extra features they need. Compatibility and future proofing is a BIG DEAL to these people.
So......apple should not put Blueray in anytime soon. BTO option? MAYBE....BUT......they should put lengthy and wordy warnings when selected informing users that it may be a paperweight in a year.
Not to mention, the DRM is so restrictive its not even funny. Especially on Blueray. It is rediculous that if you use an analog connection or a non-secured digital connection that blueray down-samples and then up-samples the video to distort it so you cannot somehow make a digital copy. Thats not how the professional pirates duplicate discs! Morons, all they are doing is once again hurting consumers. Blueray players even phone home to tell Sony what you've been watching and download new encryption keys incase someone broke the keys like they did with CSS. Sony has assumed way too much control with Blueray, so if I'd have to pick either format I'd go with HD-DVD. Lets not forget Microsoft is backing HD-DVD on the X-Box 360. Last week when I was at the game store, they said the add-on drive would be coming soon for around $100. Thats alot less than a blueray player. Heck, when combined with this fall's xbox price cuts (we all know its going to happen with the ps3 release), it will be significantly less than buying a PS3 for a blueray player.
We've seen it with Betamax, MiniDisc, MemoryStick, etc. Sony doesn't play well with others, they like their own formats. Heck, take a look at the Sony DRM fiasco from last year with the rootkit CDs. Do you really trust Sony to be checking in on what Blueray discs you are playing and verifying your encryption keys on a dailybasis? There are very few features in Blueray which are consumer friendly.
Like I said, HD-DVD and Blueray both suck in my opinion, too many DRM controls, too expensive, not enough difference really over DVD for most people....
So.......back to the main topic, what do I want Apple to do?
Nothing, don't include either. I knew someone who felt very betrayed when he purchased a PowerMac with DVD-RAM drive. He was convinced because Apple chose that drive that it was where the industry was headed. A year later he could barely find media for it and he couldn't use the discs on anyone elses machines. He actually has always been a pro-mac person, preaching to everyone, but that absolutely infuriated him.
Until there is a standard, Apple should stay out of the way. It doesn't matter if they put it in the highend mac or not, people say people spending that much don't care.........thats not true. They do care, they usually spend that much extra to get a job done with extra features they need. Compatibility and future proofing is a BIG DEAL to these people.
So......apple should not put Blueray in anytime soon. BTO option? MAYBE....BUT......they should put lengthy and wordy warnings when selected informing users that it may be a paperweight in a year.