Mac Pro And Bluray Speculation

[guzhogi]

I went to my local MicroCenter a few days ago & saw BluRay movies (XXX, Underworld: Evolution, Hitch, and 1 or 2 more) so there ARE movies out for it. Each was worth $29.99 USD so they're gonna be expensive.

I'm just going to wait a while until either BluRay or HD-DVD win out. I'm sure this is going to be like the VHS vs. Betamax thing. I remember hearing that while BluRay can hold more data, movie studios would have to buy totally new equipment to burn them. HD-DVD, however, while having a lower capacity, the studios would only have to make minor adjustments. But don't quote me on that.

If I had the money (which I don't), I'd really like to get the top of the line Mac Pro w/ all the bells & whistles when Apple ships Leopard and build my own windows computer when (if?) Windows Xista ships. I saw a full tower case w/ 5 external 5.25" bays, 2 3.5" external & 5 internal bays. I'd like to get a DVD-burner, a BluRay burner, an HD-DVD burner and a CD-RW. Probably an Nvidia mobo, 2 ATI high-end workstation graphics card (if they work w/ nvidia's sli), a Soundblaster X-Fi w/ the 3.5" bay thing, a memory card reader for the other external 3.5" bay. Then a Western Digital Raptor 10,000 RPM 150GB drive and 4 Seagate 750 GB drives and as many of Apple's 30" displays it can handle (or whatever the biggest, fastest stuff is out then).

 

[TerryJ]

I went to my local MicroCenter a few days ago & saw BluRay movies (XXX, Underworld: Evolution, Hitch, and 1 or 2 more) so there ARE movies out for it. Each was worth $29.99 USD so they're gonna be expensive.

Yup... there are BD movies (about 10) and HD DVD movies (about 30) available now. The pricing is about $20-30 dollars each. (Not bad, in my opinion.)

The HD DVD group promo site (http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/) has listed all the LOTR and all the Matrix movies as announced. I wouldn't mind picking up those (hopefully by the end of the year.) Hopefully it's not just marketing "carrot on a stick".

-Terry

 

[guzhogi]

Does anyone know whether the regular BluRay & HD-DVD players have HDMI connectors? Also, when is HDMI going to become more common on video cards?

 

[Chef Medeski]

If we are gonna base the present of potential then logically you should be going for Holographic disc since they have potential to bring out a single layer 300 gb disc at the end of 2006...

Or is that what you meant by HVD?

UMM... of course you should base desicions on the potential of a system, of course within a timeframe. I mean the potential of my Powerbook isn't nearly as great as a MacBook Pro, so that why I wouldn't buy a Powerbook right now . Its not based on cost, cause I can get a powerbook at much less, but just the fact that while the MacBook is only faster for universal apps, so really its mostly slower due to rosetta, and it has no other upgrades..... well there seems to be little advantage to pick it .... OHH WAIT it has the potential to be much faster in the future.... I forgot about that...

 

[ccunning]

I just saw this and though it was pretty interesting:

Sony also introduced their own small-format 90.0 × 94.0 mm disk, similar to the others but somewhat simpler in construction than the AmDisk. The first computer to use this format was the HP-150 of 1983, and Sony also used them fairly widely on their line of MSX computers. Other than this the format suffered from a similar fate as the other new formats; the 5¼-inch format simply had too much market share. Things changed dramatically in 1984 when Apple Computer selected the format for their new Macintosh computers. By 1989 the 3½-inch was outselling the 5¼-inch.

Here is the source:
Sony's 3.5" Floppy Disk

 

[Chef Medeski]

I just saw this and though it was pretty interesting:

Sony also introduced their own small-format 90.0 × 94.0 mm disk, similar to the others but somewhat simpler in construction than the AmDisk. The first computer to use this format was the HP-150 of 1983, and Sony also used them fairly widely on their line of MSX computers. Other than this the format suffered from a similar fate as the other new formats; the 5¼-inch format simply had too much market share. Things changed dramatically in 1984 when Apple Computer selected the format for their new Macintosh computers. By 1989 the 3½-inch was outselling the 5¼-inch.

Here is the source:
Sony's 3.5" Floppy Disk

Yeah, but wasn't that also when Apple had something like 50% of the consumer market share. I mean... I think its a very different situation even if its the same names.

 

[poppe]

UMM... of course you should base desicions on the potential of a system, of course within a timeframe. I mean the potential of my Powerbook isn't nearly as great as a MacBook Pro, so that why I wouldn't buy a Powerbook right now . Its not based on cost, cause I can get a powerbook at much less, but just the fact that while the MacBook is only faster for universal apps, so really its mostly slower due to rosetta, and it has no other upgrades..... well there seems to be little advantage to pick it .... OHH WAIT it has the potential to be much faster in the future.... I forgot about that...

Right. If he is going to base a decision on potential and storage then Blue Ray and HD-DVD is not really the way to go... I find it funny everyone here is oozing for Blue Ray yet Holographic has more potential...

 

[Chef Medeski]

Right. If he is going to base a decision on potential and storage then Blue Ray and HD-DVD is not really the way to go... I find it funny everyone here is oozing for Blue Ray yet Holographic has more potential...

Can I purchase a Holographic disc?

Nope not at my local BestBuy, I guess that makes it pretty hard to include. Wait... does anyone have a holographic disc.... nope ... no manufacturer.... not even researchers.... so I guess that means the timeframe for the device... is slated release with Vista or about 10 yrs from now.... which means it doesn't have a greater potential within a timeframe.

 

[poppe]

Can I purchase a Holographic disc?

Nope not at my local BestBuy, I guess that makes it pretty hard to include. Wait... does anyone have a holographic disc.... nope ... no manufacturer.... not even researchers.... so I guess that means the timeframe for the device... is slated release with Vista or about 10 yrs from now.... which means it doesn't have a greater potential within a timeframe.

Can I get a Dual Layer BR? No. When can I get that? Probably around the same time Holographic is released. End of the year or beggining of 2007

Acctually as stated before Holographic is supposed to be released at the end of the year.

The true problem with Hologrpahic is we don't have big ole sony or the HD-DVD companies backing it up. Its just one company... so from what I've read they said they will wait and perfect it for the pros first and later come at the consumer.

On potential... Beta had all the Potential and was a better player. I can't remember how that worked out? would you explain?

 

[TerryJ]

Does anyone know whether the regular BluRay & HD-DVD players have HDMI connectors? Also, when is HDMI going to become more common on video cards?

Both BD and HD DVD players have HDMI connectors. (Except apparently the cheap PS3 player won't... and not sure about the XBox360 add-on.)

I have a feeling video cards won't be seeing HDMI, considering most monitors have DVI... and you can get a DVI to HDMI adapter anyway.

-Terry

 

[Chef Medeski]

From Wiki:

Holographic disks: standards with 200 and 300 GB storage are under development and prototypes expected in 2008

I've heard about Mac users waiting, but 5 years for most likely the first consumer device if lucky, 6 for probably first computer device. 2012.... yes exactly when I wanted to buy my next laptop after the next four I plan to purchase.

 

[Chef Medeski]

The real deal about codecs from Wikepedia:

HD DVD:

the same video compression techniques: MPEG-2, Video Codec 1 (VC1) and H.264/MPEG-4 AVC.

HD DVD can be mastered with up to 7.1 channel surround sound using the linear (uncompressed) PCM, Dolby Digital and DTS formats also used on DVDs. In addition, it also supports Dolby Digital Plus and the lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD.

BD:

decode at least the following codecs: MPEG-2, the standard used for DVDs; MPEG-4's H.264/AVC codec; and VC-1, a codec based on Microsoft's Windows Media 9. Realistically, when using MPEG-2, quality considerations would limit the publisher to around two hours of high-definition content on a single-layer BD-ROM. The two more advanced video codecs can typically attain four hours of high quality video.

For audio, BD-ROM supports up to 7.1 channel surround sound using the linear (uncompressed) PCM, Dolby Digital and DTS formats also used on DVDs. In addition, it also supports Dolby Digital Plus and the lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD.

So, easily seen. The employ the exact same codecs. The only difference is:

BD:
Stricter DRM control
Much More Scratch Resistant
Greater future capacites

HD-DVD:
Cheaper to manufacture

And if Toshiba can make a 6-layer disc... well then that means a 90GB HD-DVD..... not bad. That would pull it in right above the total capacity of my PB HD.

 

[TerryJ]

So, easily seen. The employ the exact same codecs.

They CAN use the same codecs. The problem on the BD side is that... all of the Sony discs (and other studios so far) use MPEG2 for video and standard DD or PCM for audio.

Also, the current generation BD decks (Samsung and forthcoming Sony deck) cannot decode DD+, Dolby TruHD audio formats. They can only do same DD and DTS as old DVDs. HD DVD decks can decode DD+ and Dolby TruHD (TruHD can only be decoded to stereo in the current decks, though, unfortunately.) Also, the software needs to have audio encoded in DD+ and Dolby TruHD. All HD DVD discs have at least DD+. No BDs have DD+.

If Sony and other studios started using VC-1 or H.264 for video, things might look better for BD... but they aren't using it. I don't think there are any plans for Sony to author discs using VC-1... ever. It's all MPEG2 as far as I have heard.

[Warner Home Video has already released HD DVDs in VC-1... so it would stand to reason they'd just use the same encode for their BDs, but I guess we'll see if that is true.]

That's the trick. Talking pure specs, on paper, before anything was ever released, and BD seemed like it should be equal or better. Reality... I mean actual implementation, of course, is a different matter.

-Terry

 

[KingYaba]

PS3 Consoles will cost 500-600 bucks. 400 bucks cheaper than a blu ray dvd player So I bet people could buy that as an alternative to read your blu ray movies. Plus I bet gaming on it will be totally awesome.

 

[Chef Medeski]

They CAN use the same codecs. The problem is on the BD side is that... all of the Sony (and other studios so far) discs are using MPEG2 for video and standard DD or PCM for audio. Warner Home Video has already released HD DVDs in VC-1... so it would stand to reason they'd just use the same encode for their BDs, but I guess we'll see if that is true.

Also, the current generation BD decks (Samsung and forthcoming Sony decks) cannot decode DD+, Dolby TruHD audio formats.

If Sony and other studios started using VC-1 or H.264 for video, things might look better for BD... but they aren't using it. I don't think there are any plans for Sony to author discs using VC-1... ever. It's all MPEG2 as far as I have heard.

-Terry

I don't see any reason any manufacture would cripple their own storage capacity when they obviously have other options. If its no for the first generation of discs and players, then coroporate rigmroll is the reason to blame for HD-DVD winning out because that is just STUPID.

 

[poppe]

From Wiki:

Holographic disks: standards with 200 and 300 GB storage are under development and prototypes expected in 2008

I've heard about Mac users waiting, but 5 years for most likely the first consumer device if lucky, 6 for probably first computer device. 2012.... yes exactly when I wanted to buy my next laptop after the next four I plan to purchase.

As I said they aren't attacking the Consumer market because they have no Backing. Who can beat Sony when Sony pay's best buy to Disply the blue rays and HD-DVD no longer is displayed?

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8370

This link says 2006

http://www.engadget.com/2005/04/18/inphase-announces-300gb-holographic-discs/

This says 2006 for 300 GBS/ 2009 for 1TB

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/24/maxell_holo_storage/

"Late 2006"

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/80850/holographic-discs-set-for-retail-next-year.html

2006...

http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp/article.jsp?article_id=69424&cat_id=581

2006...

http://www.layersmagazine.com/beta/article/holographic-discs-set-for-retail-next-year.html

2006...

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Optware-Announces-200GB-Holographic-Discs-for-2006-10859.shtml

2006 - for 200 gbs

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1785630,00.asp

2006...

http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/storage/story/0,10801,95446,00.html

2006... though this was written (2004) so...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1311642.cms

2006...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1821012,00.asp

2006..

From Wikipedia (your source) - "160 times the capacity of single-layer Blu-ray Discs, and about 8 times the capacity of standard computer hard drives with space that accounts for year 2006 standards. Optware is expected to release a 200 GB disc in early June of 2006, and Maxell in September 2006 with a capacity of 300 GB and transfer rate of 20 MB/sec [3] [4].
"
But yeah your probably right

 

[TerryJ]

I don't see any reason any manufacture would cripple their own storage capacity when they obviously have other options. If its no for the first generation of discs and players, then coroporate rigmroll is the reason to blame for HD-DVD winning out because that is just STUPID.

I agree. It's really stupid.

If Blu-ray studios authored their discs in VC-1 and DD+ or TruHD... the whole HD DVD picture/sound "advantage" would be moot. But they are not. (At least, not yet anyway.)

One possibility is that they are just trying to rush stuff out the door (to counter HD DVD's time advantage), and it's easier/faster to author in MPEG2 (with existing tools). At least they can say "we have product out there", even though that product sucks.

But apparently not wanting to use a Microsoft codec is another.

-Terry

 

[Chef Medeski]

As I said they aren't attacking the Consumer market because they have no Backing. Who can beat Sony when Sony pay's best buy to Disply the blue rays and HD-DVD no longer is displayed?

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8370

This link says 2006

http://www.engadget.com/2005/04/18/inphase-announces-300gb-holographic-discs/

This says 2006 for 300 GBS/ 2009 for 1TB

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/24/maxell_holo_storage/

"Late 2006"

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/80850/holographic-discs-set-for-retail-next-year.html

2006...

http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp/article.jsp?article_id=69424&cat_id=581

2006...

http://www.layersmagazine.com/beta/article/holographic-discs-set-for-retail-next-year.html

2006...

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Optware-Announces-200GB-Holographic-Discs-for-2006-10859.shtml

2006 - for 200 gbs

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1785630,00.asp

2006...

http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/storage/story/0,10801,95446,00.html

2006... though this was written (2004) so...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1311642.cms

2006...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1821012,00.asp

2006..

From Wikipedia (your source) - "160 times the capacity of single-layer Blu-ray Discs, and about 8 times the capacity of standard computer hard drives with space that accounts for year 2006 standards. Optware is expected to release a 200 GB disc in early June of 2006, and Maxell in September 2006 with a capacity of 300 GB and transfer rate of 20 MB/sec [3] [4].
"
But yeah your probably right

Early June. Its middle of July. Where is it? Wheres the player? They're showing of a prototype disc? Its world away from ever reaching my computer.

 

[poppe]

Early June. Its middle of July. Where is it? Wheres the player? They're showing of a prototype disc? Its world away from ever reaching my computer.

So one company doesn't display it that means that the other companies that are working on it couldn't have it out by end of 2006/early 2007 as I stated earlier?

Dell didn't release a workstation. Hp must not either

 

[Evangelion]

From what I recall, Philips began working on the compact disk project and Sony later on joined them in that venture.

It was originally made by Philips, but the CD we know today is a Philips/Sony Co-Op.

And, regarding the BetaMax... It was actually quite succesfull. Yes, it failed in consumer-space, but it's still being used in television-productions.

Just keep in mind Sony's hit/miss ratio for standardization.

Is it REALLY that bad? BetaMax wasn 't really a failure, since it's widely used even today. It's just not used by consumers. Sony was very important in creating the CD. They do have to misses that can't be denied: Memory Stick and MiniDisk.

Other companies might have less misses in these things, but we must acknowledge that none of them has been as active in coming up with alternatives. I haven't really seen Matsushita (for example) try to come up with new stuff. Sony has tried to come up with new stuff. Some of the succeeded, some of them failed.

 

[poppe]

It was originally made by Philips, but the CD we know today is a Philips/Sony Co-Op.

And, regarding the BetaMax... It was actually quite succesfull. Yes, it failed in consumer-space, but it's still being used in television-productions.



Is it REALLY that bad? BetaMax wasn 't really a failure, since it's widely used even today. It's just not used by consumers. Sony was very important in creating the CD. They do have to misses that can't be denied: Memory Stick and MiniDisk.

Other companies might have less misses in these things, but we must acknowledge that none of them has been as active in coming up with alternatives. I haven't really seen Matsushita (for example) try to come up with new stuff. Sony has tried to come up with new stuff. Some of the succeeded, some of them failed.

On betamax. Your very right it is very succesful in a production studios for broadcasting and what not. But now even those are being replaced by DVC Pro (which I think is sony is it not?).

But I was more talking about the format war that keeps getting mentioned. It was one vs. the other in the consumer market. Who won? VHS. Thats all I meant.

 

[TerryJ]

On betamax. Your very right it is very succesful in a production studios for broadcasting and what not. But now even those are being replaced by DVC Pro (which I think is sony is it not?).

DVC-PRO is a Panasonic created format.

-Terry

 

[poppe]

DVC-PRO is a Panasonic created format.

-Terry

Oops... I stand Corrected...

 

[maxvamp]

Moot point really

All,

As with DVD+R and DVD-R, the HD Video Disc formats WILL merge. In fact it is Ricoh that is working on it. See here.

As for What will ship, it will be a Pioneer Blu-Ray in the top end Mac. Just look back on the PowerMac DA 700. It had a Pioneer A-03 DVD-R burner ( the first ) and the drive retailed for ( yep, you guessed it ) $1000.

Finally, as for quality, Name me a format space where there were two competitors, and the one with the Higher Quality won? I can personally think of only one time....


Beta vs. VHS ?
Cassette vs. 8-track?
CED vs. LaserVision ?
DVD-A vs. SACD ? ( trick question )
DV- Pro vs. DVCam?
DCC vs. DAT ?
D-1 vs. DCT?
DVD+R vs. DVD-R?

Gas vs. Diesel ?

HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray?


I could go on....

Max.

 

[Rod Rod]

I think it will be at least 12 more months before bluray shows up in an Apple machine - at least as a standard. The only real hint I have seen is that they already let you author HD video in DVD SP.

You appear to support Blu-Ray Disc, but your "evidence" is that today we can author HD-DVDs (onto red-laser DVDs) in DVD Studio Pro.

BTW, all Macs sold today, and many Macs going back the past few years, are HD-DVD players. They play HD-DVD from red-laser DVDs authored in DVD SP. DVD Player 4 (or maybe 4.1 or 4.6) in Tiger has the capability as long as your other hardware (G5 or Core Duo) is up to it.