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Only if you consider that the current Mac Pro is just like every other Xeon system.

It was just like every other high end Xeon Workstation, and Apple took hits because it was compared to much less expensive machines (without similar capabilities).

When it was released, it had the same basic architecture as every other Mac, meaning that software companies did not need to care how many were sold, just what was the overall size of the Mac market. Today that would not be true. Anyone porting would have to do two ports to the Mac ecosystem with very different optimizations. Companies that have not ported up until now will not be even less likely to port to such a split ecosystem (especially given the tiny number of those machines they would sell).

Second, since any investment in this system would could only be amortized over its sales (nothing could be shared with other Apple Silicon machines), and given that Mac Pro sales have always been low, it would mean that these systems would be very expensive but would not out perform very cheap Windows or Linux systems for most benchmarks.

It would mean that Apple would have to keep a team working on performance tuning macOS for these machine and supporting this different architecture, and it would detract from Apple’s message that Apple Silicon was its future.

This machine would the worst of all possible worlds: an expensive machine with a tiny market share that can never be meaningfully faster than commodity systems for most applications.
 
It would be just like every other Epyc system, but with less software support than Windows or Linux.

Absolutely true.

I still find the idea that Apple Could ship a W3400 Xeon system just to let the pros transition slower is… remotely possible, but so so unlikely. 2% chance?

It would be so low volume they would have to charge through the nose for it, but Apple must feel a bit embarrassed that their M* Quadra plans fell through.

Super unlikely still…

I wanted to try and capture the bandwidth constraints of the current Mac Pro, but it will be hard to compare against whatever comes next.
1677773579982.png
 
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Absolutely true.

I still find the idea that Apple Could ship a W3400 Xeon system just to let the pros transition slower is… remotely possible, but so so unlikely. 2% chance?

It would be so low volume they would have to charge through the nose for it, but Apple must feel a bit embarrassed that their M* Quadra plans fell through.

Super unlikely still…

I wanted to try and capture the bandwidth constraints of the current Mac Pro, but it will be hard to compare against whatever comes next.View attachment 2167193
Does anyone actually know which pci lanes are being routed through the PCIe switches, and which are directly connected to the Xeon processor?
 
Does anyone actually know which pci lanes are being routed through the PCIe switches, and which are directly connected to the Xeon processor?
You mean does anyone on here? :) I will check with someone that might know and see if I can find out….
 
Considering all the rumours I've seen, I predict that that the Mac Pro will distinguish itself by supporting multiple pluggable "compute units" within that cheese grater enclosure, where each compute unit is similar in form to a thin rack-mounted server, and the collection is akin to a super-computer, where a set of logically distinct computers each with its own Mn Ultra SoC and RAM, and they talk to each other to share work but don't pretend to be a single chip. There are already clues for this in a recent Xcode or some other software, or its how I interpret it. And it would make sense for getting around a lack of Mn Extreme or whatever.
 
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A pity I can't find such a document for the Mac Studio.

For the M1 Ultra version, I would assume that each M1 Max die has 3 TB ports connected to it, but I wonder if all the other components/ports are routed to primary M1 Max (like they would be in the M1 Max Mac Studio), or if all the components/ports are distributed across both dies???
 
A pity I can't find such a document for the Mac Studio.

For the M1 Ultra version, I would assume that each M1 Max die has 3 TB ports connected to it, but I wonder if all the other components/ports are routed to primary M1 Max (like they would be in the M1 Max Mac Studio), or if all the components/ports are distributed across both dies???
Way too many unknowns to be interesting...
1678039139759.png
 
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Considering all the rumours I've seen, I predict that that the Mac Pro will distinguish itself by supporting multiple pluggable "compute units" within that cheese grater enclosure, where each compute unit is similar in form to a thin rack-mounted server, and the collection is akin to a super-computer, where a set of logically distinct computers each with its own Mn Ultra SoC and RAM, and they talk to each other to share work but don't pretend to be a single chip. There are already clues for this in a recent Xcode or some other software, or its how I interpret it. And it would make sense for getting around a lack of Mn Extreme or whatever.

If you are going to go through that route, you might as well buy many smaller Intel / AMD processors and create software to do distributed computing yourself. It'll probably turn out cheaper.
 
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If you are going to go through that route, you might as well buy many smaller Intel / AMD processors and create software to do distributed computing yourself. It'll probably turn out cheaper.
Yeah... While Apple *could* do this, would they?

Apple's space in the workstation market is niche and small, but Apple's space in the distributed high-performance parallel computing space is.... negligible, at best? If Apple was to make a move back into servers, I could buy this; but has that been rumoured by anyone?

What seems most likely is that Apple will parts bin the components from their M* chips, and turn it into a GP-GPU like card to try and have a GPU Workstation story for the Mac Pro, even if Apple chooses to support zero 3rd party GPUs.
 
Yeah... While Apple *could* do this, would they?
It's difficult to imagine the market for such a machine being large enough to justify the significant development costs to Apple. As you say, that sort of device is far outside their zone of competency and aimed at a market they've spent a decade alienating.
 
What seems most likely is that Apple will parts bin the components from their M* chips, and turn it into a GP-GPU like card to try and have a GPU Workstation story for the Mac Pro, even if Apple chooses to support zero 3rd party GPUs.

I envision ASi (GP)GPUs with all-new GPU-specific SoCs; MPX 2.0, where both primary & secondary slots are Gen5 x16; no TB provisioning on the secondary slot, just straight high-speed data transfer...
 
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I envision ASi (GP)GPUs with all-new GPU-specific SoCs; MPX 2.0, where both primary & secondary slots are Gen5 x16; no TB provisioning on the secondary slot, just straight high-speed data transfer...

I hope MPX is dead.

I would expect these cards don't have video out, so they don't need the Thunderbolt channel hack that MPX allowed, and I'm sure Apple can make compute modules close enough to 75W that they don't need all the extra power connectors.

I feel that MPX was an over engineered waste because Apple is overly fixated on "single cable to monitor" setups.

That being said, if all MPX2 only offers power, that's pretty a trivial addition to the motherboard.

Apple RoI won't be high enough of these cards to warrant them burning that much money, so these compute modules will probably share a lot of design with other M chips
 
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I envision ASi (GP)GPUs with all-new GPU-specific SoCs; MPX 2.0, where both primary & secondary slots are Gen5 x16; no TB provisioning on the secondary slot, just straight high-speed data transfer...

I hope MPX is dead.

I would expect these cards don't have video out, so they don't need the Thunderbolt channel hack that MPX allowed, and I'm sure Apple can make compute modules close enough to 75W that they don't need all the extra power connectors.

You will note where is specifically said "no TB provisioning on the secondary slot"...

As for only needing 75W; well, I would expect an ASi (GP)GPU to have two to four GPU-specific SoCs, pulling around 400W or so...

I feel that MPX was an over engineered waste because Apple is overly fixated on "single cable to monitor" setups.

That being said, if all MPX2 only offers power, that's pretty a trivial addition to the motherboard.

Again, I clearly said the secondary slot would be a Gen5 x16 slot in regards to data transfer...

Of course it would also provide 400W+ of power for cableless install...

Apple RoI won't be high enough of these cards to warrant them burning that much money, so these compute modules will probably share a lot of design with other M chips

These ASi (GP)GPU MPX 2.0 cards could also be BTO with an eGPU TB enclosure, for use with all & any ASi Macs without MPX 2.0 slots; namely, everything but the ASi Mac Pro...

Would it be expensive...? Of course, this is Apple we are talking about here; Just look at the pricing they had on the Blackmagic Design eGPUs...!
 
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You will note where is specifically said "no TB provisioning on the secondary slot"...
...
These ASi (GP)GPU MPX 2.0 cards could also be BTO with an eGPU TB enclosure, for use with all & any ASi Macs without MPX 2.0 slots; namely, everything but the ASi Mac Pro...

Sorry, I was just thinking through it myself while writing that.

Yeah, Apple could definitely do that.

The power envelope per module feels like an unknown still, but I do buy there is a viable product there.

Apple basically giving customers the choice: Get a Mac Pro and just add the cards, or get the cards in an external module.

I would expect gen4 still, because given Apple is generally not that cutting edge; but also, if this product is built to take advantage of x16 gen5 (242 GBps), I wonder how well it could work with even Next Gen TB (~10 GBps). That difference is large enough that HOW it works might depend on bandwidth expectations.
 
I would expect gen4 still, because given Apple is generally not that cutting edge; but also, if this product is built to take advantage of x16 gen5 (242 GBps), I wonder how well it could work with even Next Gen TB (~10 GBps). That difference is large enough that HOW it works might depend on bandwidth expectations.

My fever dream MPX 2.0 has two slots, primary & secondary, with both being Gen5 x16; so 848GB/s aggregate...?

Good point on even TB5 not being enough bandwidth for these monsters; but Apple has developed a number of MPX GPUs that would only work in the Mac Pro in the past; I could see the same here, MPX 2.0 ASi (GP)GPUs exclusive to the ASi Mac Pro...
 
I would guess because it would add a lot of expense (it would mean that they had to pull lots of lines off the CPU to some kind of external socket that could only be used by RAM, rather than general PCIe IO), and make it harder to get companies to optimize for a Unified Memory Architecutre.
the bus sharing data between apples new compute units (only rumoured) or the data transfer over a PCIe wide lane for that matter to the GPU or afterburner card in the old Mac Pro is going to be factors of ten slower than any data bridge Apple could place between the SoC and some DRAM sockets. Why would it be any different to memory swapping with SSD or level 1 2 or 3 memory caches, how much attention do application programmers on macOS attend to studying those behaviours?
 
When it was released, it had the same basic architecture as every other Mac, meaning that software companies did not need to care how many were sold, just what was the overall size of the Mac market. Today that would not be true. Anyone porting would have to do two ports to the Mac ecosystem with very different optimizations. Companies that have not ported up until now will not be even less likely to port to such a split ecosystem (especially given the tiny number of those machines they would sell).

Second, since any investment in this system would could only be amortized over its sales (nothing could be shared with other Apple Silicon machines), and given that Mac Pro sales have always been low, it would mean that these systems would be very expensive but would not out perform very cheap Windows or Linux systems for most benchmarks.

It would mean that Apple would have to keep a team working on performance tuning macOS for these machine and supporting this different architecture, and it would detract from Apple’s message that Apple Silicon was its future.

This machine would the worst of all possible worlds: an expensive machine with a tiny market share that can never be meaningfully faster than commodity systems for most applications.
there's no way Apple is thinking of releasing another Intel-centric motherboard. One thing the Mac Pro with AS and compute units or some other M_ Extreme SoC on a daughter board does is create headlines when it's released. Good headline as opposed to the years of bad headlines about a workstation that has $1K casters, basically 1 or 2 GPUs to choose from and underperforms WinTel machines.

Unless you have a thing for FCP & Motion (a surprising number of YouTube channel dudes bought Mac Pros to do less than 5K video workflows with almost no effects and compositing other than grade and a ew bottom thirds) or have never tried Da Vinci Resolve or Avid or you are locked into any of the other Apple only software and need extreme workstation power then it's a bad choice. Just by a MBP for the Apple software experience oral apps other than your workstation bad-boy apps which you run on a Linux/Wintel workstation. if you are a 3D animator, compositor or scientist or whatever. Unless your institution has money to burn and egos to maintain I guess.

But if Apple can deliver the same price per Gigaflop on Mac Pro as they have with the M1/<2 series machines then it's going to have a great PR impact for Apple and they can coast for a year two as AMD claw them back.
 
One question I haven't heard asked:

If the next ARM Mac Pro is approximately in a Mac Pro (2019) chassis, where do all the ports come from?

Would they have PCIe slots as well as a new rear chassis with the Mac Studio ports like this 1st drawing, or would most of the ports still be on PCIe cards like the 2nd?

There are too many unknowns about even how the Mac Studio is wired up. I wonder if an "ioreg -l" would clear up how things are wired.


Hybrid Mac Pro (2019) + Mac Studio chassis:

ArmMacPro1.png



Exactly a Mac Pro (2019) chassis:

ArmMacPro2.png
 
One question I haven't heard asked:

If the next ARM Mac Pro is approximately in a Mac Pro (2019) chassis, where do all the ports come from?

Would they have PCIe slots as well as a new rear chassis with the Mac Studio ports like this 1st drawing, or would most of the ports still be on PCIe cards like the 2nd?

There are too many unknowns about even how the Mac Studio is wired up. I wonder if an "ioreg -l" would clear up how things are wired.


Hybrid Mac Pro (2019) + Mac Studio chassis:

View attachment 2169764


Exactly a Mac Pro (2019) chassis:

View attachment 2169766
My guess is that they will deploy Ansible technology with their recent acquisition or Orson Scott Card. I could be wrong though. :)
 
One question I haven't heard asked:

If the next ARM Mac Pro is approximately in a Mac Pro (2019) chassis, where do all the ports come from?

Would they have PCIe slots as well as a new rear chassis with the Mac Studio ports like this 1st drawing, or would most of the ports still be on PCIe cards like the 2nd?

There are too many unknowns about even how the Mac Studio is wired up. I wonder if an "ioreg -l" would clear up how things are wired.


Hybrid Mac Pro (2019) + Mac Studio chassis:

View attachment 2169764


Exactly a Mac Pro (2019) chassis:

View attachment 2169766
I can't see them releasing a Mac Pro without using the Mac Studio bus extension as a bare minimum. it's the Mac Pro, it's been long delayed (which given the Studio is fine) but if it does smoke Intel boxes of similar price point and doesn't release some new tech then I'd be very disappointed and so would the market I expect.
 
I can't see them releasing a Mac Pro without using the Mac Studio bus extension as a bare minimum. it's the Mac Pro, it's been long delayed (which given the Studio is fine) but if it does smoke Intel boxes of similar price point and doesn't release some new tech then I'd be very disappointed and so would the market I expect.

That is what makes this sponsored LTT video interesting.

The HP W-3400 based Z8 Fury G5:

is approximately the machine the MacPro could have been, if not for Apple Silicon, which makes it an interesting comparison.

I’m sure the M2 Ultra Mac Pro will be “fine” for the users that need it, it won’t be quite this smoking.
 
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