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Those aren’t M.2 slots, and they’re incompatible with NVMe drives. They take Apple’s proprietary NAND memory modules and connect directly to the memory controller on the T2 chip, whereas NVMe drives have the SSD controller on the module itself. The second slot is for capacities greater than 256GB, which operate in an interleaved fashion for faster speeds.

Ah you’re right. The pin layout is indeed different, but at first glance it looked a lot like an M.2 slot. Interesting design decision... I get why they separated the T2 chip and controller from the flash storage, but the new interface is curious. It’s like a lightning connector for your SSD lol
 
In theory, could you add a second M.2 drive without a fleecing assistance from Apple? In this picture, you can see there are two M.2 slots, so perhaps the second drive could be added without dealing with any T2 chip issues? Or has anyone confirmed that there is really no communication to the mainboard without going through the T2 chip in either slot?
(source: iFixIt)
Z5ODVpJQBOkOjuYE.large
I think it’s not a standard M.2 connector.
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Those aren’t M.2 slots, and they’re incompatible with NVMe drives. They take Apple’s proprietary NAND memory modules and connect directly to the memory controller on the T2 chip, whereas NVMe drives have the SSD controller on the module itself. The second slot is for capacities greater than 256GB, which operate in an interleaved fashion for faster speeds.
What it’s strange is: why two connectors ? No proprietary option for an added T2 SSD is offered so far...
 
Ah you’re right. The pin layout is indeed different, but at first glance it looked a lot like an M.2 slot. Interesting design decision... I get why they separated the T2 chip and controller from the flash storage, but the new interface is curious. It’s like a lightning connector for your SSD lol

Vendor lock down via proprietary port.

it does nothing truly technically different than any other implementation in practice. Just provides barriers for the user to make it more difficult.
 
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Yep .. had a horrible experience with iMac myself. It's not a laptop (obviously) but not really a desktop either. It, however inherits all of their disadvantages.

Immobile (unless you want to lug the thing around your local Starbucks.. well, not impossible), yet not-upgradeable (at least not if you want to keep its warranty intact). It is a good-looking computer, you could use one for a front desk, or showing it off at the office for more "professional looks". But for actual, long term ownership..? meehhh.
I completely agree with you. I do see that an iMac like all-in-one has a place as a lower end "professional looks" for front desks etc. Although in these situation, a small Mac mini sized PC under the desk maybe a better solution, particularly if other peripheral like a barcode scanner are required. Maybe there is a market for screens that look great from the back and front for situations like this. The fact that very few Windows PCs are iMac like all-in-ones is a sign that all-in-ones are rarely the best solution. Much of success of the iMac is that it is the only desktop Mac in its price range, Apple effectively is forcing people to buy an all-in-one.
 
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What it’s strange is: why two connectors ? No proprietary option for an added T2 SSD is offered so far...

I thought the larger storage options were RAID'd?

Vendor lock down via proprietary port.

it does nothing truly technically different than any other implementation in practice. Just provides barriers for the user to make it more difficult.

It's a bizarre choice though. They had to create their own pin layout, interface design, communications channels, etc... That's a lot of work to prevent people from upgrading the on-board SSD, whereas everyone knew that PCIe SSD was going to be a breeze. The cost-benefit ratio is curious, since all it does is force storage upgrades elsewhere. Perhaps it's just a play for the purpose of selling extra storage up front, which I guess is in line with every other device they sell (i.e. soldered-on storage, soldered-on RAM, and so on, from many iterations of Macs in the past). I guess their business strategy people wouldn't let it out the door without some kind of pushed early upgrade lol
 
I see others have responded to you as well. Bottom line: Dude, get over the internal 256. Ignore it.

You're completely contradicting yourself. On the one hand you want full control to put in your own SSD. On the other hand you're saying you shouldn't have to purchase more components. Make up your mind.

Multiple other people have responded to you, as have I. Get over the internal non-replaceable SSD. Ignore it. Use the enormous expansion options in this machine to put whatever the hell you want in it completely under YOUR control, for less $ than Apple wants for their SSDs. THAT's "Simple". Your arrogance with your use of "Simple" is offensive.

You're talking about the internal SSD as if it's just another SSD. It's not. That SSD performs a number of special functions (many relating to the security and other features provided by the T2) that have value to some people even if not you. Apple is not going to remove it (and all that extra functionality) just for you. And there is absolutely no reason to. If what that SSD provides has no value to you then ignore it. Apple has provided you with the means to put whatever SSD you want in this machine. There's your "Choices". If you're spending $8K+ on it and you can't handle another $200 for your own SSD, then you're another person here just blowing smoke to diss Apple, with absolutely no substance.

The only thing you understand is Apple is the greatest company. The option should be I can full control over the internal SSD's (that come with original purchase) and not have to purchases another set of SSD's. Simple.:rolleyes:

No contradiction, full control over internal SSD's (I don't), purchasing PCIe card for another set of SSD's is my only choice .........two different points.
 
Perhaps it's just a play for the purpose of selling extra storage up front


And there you have it.

as I have pointed out earlier. Apple's up front cost to upgrade their proprietary laid out SSD is nearly 2x the prices of NVME drives in the retail channel.

the more Apple can push you to upgrade up front with them, the larger their margins become on each product sold.

Here's a comparison of what Apple is charging for their storage versus retail price point of good quality NVME storage:

Applenewegg.ca
1TB$400$169.99
2TB$800$449.99
4TB$1400$699.99
 
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I thought the larger storage options were RAID'd?

You are right.
I tried to configure one, and starting from 1 Tb the internal storage is on 2 SSDs...
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And there you have it.

as I have pointed out earlier. Apple's up front cost to upgrade their proprietary laid out SSD is nearly 2x the prices of NVME drives in the retail channel.

the more Apple can push you to upgrade up front with them, the larger their margins become on each product sold.

Here's a comparison of what Apple is charging for their storage versus retail price point of good quality NVME storage:

Applenewegg.ca
1TB$400$169.99
2TB$800$449.99
4TB$1400$699.99

Just to be clear, the 1 TB, 2 TB and 4 TB Apple options are based on 2 units, not just one.
So the price is not the same.

Apple’s prices still are too high, but not so high.
 
You are right.
I tried to configure one, and starting from 1 Tb the internal storage is on 2 SSDs...
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Just to be clear, the 1 TB, 2 TB and 4 TB Apple options are based on 2 units, not just one.
So the price is not the same.

Apple’s prices still are too high, but not so high.

why two units though?

furthering my point that it looks like Apple has implemented and created a scenario for no purpose other than some sort of vendor lock down on the internal default SSD's.

if what is showing is correct, that the base 256gb storage is also only performing around 1500mbps, than there's no way they've got two NVME quality drives in RAID-0. so why are they doing that?

the implementation just seems like it was made incredibly cumbersome and unnecessary. They could have put two full M.2 PCI-E x4 slots for 2 full speed SSD's in there and achieved much greater performance. value, and customizability options for the users.

instead, the base storage is essentially non-user upgradable without Apple doing the upgrade. Which was one of the very complaints that pro users had with other devices in the lineup.
 
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And there you have it.

as I have pointed out earlier. Apple's up front cost to upgrade their proprietary laid out SSD is nearly 2x the prices of NVME drives in the retail channel.

the more Apple can push you to upgrade up front with them, the larger their margins become on each product sold.

Here's a comparison of what Apple is charging for their storage versus retail price point of good quality NVME storage:

Applenewegg.ca
1TB$400$169.99
2TB$800$449.99
4TB$1400$699.99

Except you can easily upgrade SSD storage, at far less cost and with better performance, through MacPro's PCIe slots.
 
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It hangs on the first re-boot after you install Windows 10? Assuming you’ve allowed booting from external drives, it might be a bug. How did you create the installer, did you use the Media Creation Tool? Are you using Boot Camp? Did you format the partition you’re using as NTFS?

I've created "WindowsToGo drives" with Win2USB and Rufus. There are many youtube videos doing this for USB drives but it never worked for me on a Thunderbolt 3 drive on my 2019 Mac Pro.
Also, I have created installer USB drives with the Media Creation Tool in attempts to install on internal NVME drives and on a Bootcamp partition on my main SSD. These hang, too.

I have booting from external device enabled to no avail.

Also Bootcamp Assistant won't let me install on a Bootcamp partition. It seems to get pretty far but quits every time.

I even went so far as to do a complete restore on my internal SSD. That did not help. All approaches that I've tried continued to fail

This is crazy.

ONE TIME, I did get a Media Creation USB to run the installer. I had to point it to the downloaded Apple drivers to recognize the internal Apple SSD. It ran and hung. However, after reboot, Windows was running. Unfortunately, it was missing drivers even after running the WindowsSupport files downloaded from Apple. Many features simply weren't working.

The only way I was able to get Windows running on my new 2019 Mac Pro was to install it in a Parallels VM.
 
why two units though?

furthering my point that it looks like Apple has implemented and created a scenario for no purpose other than some sort of vendor lock down on the internal default SSD's.

if what is showing is correct, that the base 256gb storage is also only performing around 1500mbps, than there's no way they've got two NVME quality drives in RAID-0. so why are they doing that?

the implementation just seems like it was made incredibly cumbersome and unnecessary. They could have put two full M.2 PCI-E x4 slots for 2 full speed SSD's in there and achieved much greater performance. value, and customizability options for the users.

instead, the base storage is essentially non-user upgradable without Apple doing the upgrade. Which was one of the very complaints that pro users had with other devices in the lineup.
Isn’t the point to be able to use the T2 as the disk controller for the NAND modules for on the fly encryption and decryption? Most of Apple’s other implementations of this have the flash soldered to the logic board; on the Mac Pro, the flash is on a socketed module.

There’s no doubt Apple could use NVMe drives, and even offer upgrades at Newegg prices if they wanted to. But they’d just increase the price of the entry level machine to offset the loss of margin.

An entry level at $5999 with higher priced disk upgrades is “better” than a $6,699 entry level with cheaper disk upgrades. As is typical with Apple, the upgrades effectively subsidize the base machine. It’s a common pricing model in many industries.

PS It’s my understanding that the 256 and 512GB capacities only use a single module, while larger capacities use two modules, interleaved in a RAID-like manner. Each module has an x4 PCIe connection to the T2.
 
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I've created "WindowsToGo drives" with Win2USB and Rufus. There are many youtube videos doing this for USB drives but it never worked for me on a Thunderbolt 3 drive on my 2019 Mac Pro.
Also, I have created installer USB drives with the Media Creation Tool in attempts to install on internal NVME drives and on a Bootcamp partition on my main SSD. These hang, too.

I have booting from external device enabled to no avail.

Also Bootcamp Assistant won't let me install on a Bootcamp partition. It seems to get pretty far but quits every time.

I even went so far as to do a complete restore on my internal SSD. That did not help. All approaches that I've tried continued to fail

This is crazy.

ONE TIME, I did get a Media Creation USB to run the installer. I had to point it to the downloaded Apple drivers to recognize the internal Apple SSD. It ran and hung. However, after reboot, Windows was running. Unfortunately, it was missing drivers even after running the WindowsSupport files downloaded from Apple. Many features simply weren't working.

The only way I was able to get Windows running on my new 2019 Mac Pro was to install it in a Parallels VM.
I think there are no Boot Camp drivers available yet from Apple. This is apparently not unusual for newly released machines. Apple could do better here :( 😡

 
So you basically admitted not to know what T2 is doing but nonetheless you stated LUKS is better.
interesting...
Yup because in LUKS I have much more control of the header which contains the volume key I can put the header of the volume into a separate USB drive so that when I boot my system it will need the USB drive and without it it will be impossible to decrypt the whole drive. I can set the iteration to a time function meaning instead of number of iteration like 100,000 for Veracrypt I can have it in 20 seconds. Meaning the key derivation will take 20 seconds in my current machine. It may make may wait 20 seconds before it can decrypt the whole drive and boot but it will significantly protect the system from brute force attack. I can also backup the whole header in case of disk corruption I still have the option to be able to decrypt maybe not the whole disk because portions of it is corrupted but some portion of the disk and retrieve some of my data. And also since it is open source and has been audited by third party I am pretty sure that there is no backdoor. Is that enough to be considered much better?
 
Wow. Nearly everything you've stated there is wrong. For one, Apple do NOT hold the key to your SSD. And if the T2 chip dies then it's no different to your drive dying. The way to recover your data is to get it from your backups, which you are keeping, right?

The FUD and misinformation on this forum about what the T2 chip is for and does is astounding. Sigh.

Thankfully that misinformation is not ubiquitous here. See a couple of the other replies to the question you're replying to for significantly more accurate information.
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Hmm... It's not? What it is it?

Actually maybe I get what you're saying. It's not a standard PCIe connector. But it's PCIe protocol similar to how Thunderbolt is PCIe protocol (but not PCIe connector)... isn't it?

At least that's what I meant when I said what I said. But if that's wrong also, I'd be interested to know what it is instead.
The SSD connects to the T2 chip. I suspect the T2 chip connects directly to the northbridge. In theory, it could be faster than PCI-e.
 
Sorry to revive this thread. I had placed an order for this Sonnet card but due to some logistics (we are all human!), my order was not processed in time to get one of these, so now I am waiting on backorder until mid-March. Does anybody know of a third-party site where I might still find one of them? I have been digging and digging and did not manage to find one:
My Samsung sticks will be sad to not have a home. They are ready to do some computing!
 
Sorry to revive this thread. I had placed an order for this Sonnet card but due to some logistics (we are all human!), my order was not processed in time to get one of these, so now I am waiting on backorder until mid-March. Does anybody know of a third-party site where I might still find one of them? I have been digging and digging and did not manage to find one:
My Samsung sticks will be sad to not have a home. They are ready to do some computing!
You might try CDW, they claim 5-7 days to ship.

 
@PickUrPoison Thank you for the tip! I called CDW after seeing your posting, and they said that it is on backorder for them too. This is indicated by the statement on their page that "Orders placed today will ship within 5-7 days". So CDW does not have it in stock either, and it will be on backorder until late March 2020, just like everywhere else. Thanks for trying!
 
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BEWARE! BIG MISTAKE (for my setup)!

Ended up returning my MacPro to Apple and the SSD to Amazon then just spending the +$1400 with Apple.
Also lost lots of wasted time and $ in the swap due to shipping.

Here's why… MacPro base SSD is 256GB
Not enough to handle the basics for MacOS + iCloud Storage + FCPx without changing a bunch of default settings which ends up being such a permanent nuisance that its just not worth saving the money.
256GB is useless for this machine, not sure why that's even an option???

MacRumors has always been a wonderful source of wisdom, however, they cannot recommend everything for everyone so be sure to read through all of the comments before buying, it might save you!

Oh yeah, one more thing… the back of the MacPro is black. The SSD slot is a shiny chrome vent and looks like it doesn't belong.
 
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Many years ago when I got my first job I told myself eventually I’ll get a Mac Pro (that was when the starting at $3000) I think. Fast forward to 2020, starting is at $6000, basically priced out most of the Mac lover. So at this point as much as I love the new line I’m looking at continue to use my 2009 bought used Mac Pro or an iMac if I want a desktop. Sigh, maybe a few more years.....
That might be true, but...so the base price is now 3K more, or double. So, as a thought, from the time when you started working till now, (that is a long time ago because when I bought my first Mac it was a IICX and it was $3400 used) Is your salary not close to doubled?
 
That might be true, but...so the base price is now 3K more, or double. So, as a thought, from the time when you started working till now, (that is a long time ago because when I bought my first Mac it was a IICX and it was $3400 used) Is your salary not close to doubled?

Haha, I wish. Unless I'm just bad at my job. Most people I know don't double their salary. The rule is if you want, you can jump but you maybe get a 10-20% jump. Other then that, maybe join a start up and hoping it would work out.

I should also say, I personally have a very large ratio between how much I make and how much I feel comfortable spending, that's just me...
 
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Haha, I wish. Unless I'm just bad at my job. Most people I know don't double their salary. The rule is if you want, you can jump but you maybe get a 10-20% jump. Other then that, maybe join a start up and hoping it would work out.

I should also say, I personally have a very large ratio between how much I make and how much I feel comfortable spending, that's just me...
Aajeevlin, I will commend you on the responsible on the spending habits. I will admit to feeling somewhat similar as it is very expensive to keep up with technology.
 
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