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Why is Apple so dead-set on using Xeons in the Mac Pro?

The desktop processors are a *LOT* less expensive, and only a smidge slower.

The Mac Pro could be a much more affordable machine if they'd shift to desktop-grade CPUs, and the cost in performance would be minimal. Performance per dollar cost would skyrocket.

Thoughts?

Step in the way-back machine to 2006. The PowerMac G5 Quad is on the market. It's time to bring in its Intel replacement. Well, you can't backslide on core count now, can you? You had 2 CPUs before, each with 2 cores, so you need either a single quad, or two duals. At the time, the only platform Intel had that could do that was Woodcrest. Kentsfield wouldn't come along for a few more months (actually, I wonder if that was why they originally said it would take until sometime in '07 to finish the Intel switch. Perhaps the MP was originally planned to be an X38/Kentsfield machine? That actually would've put its hardware and pricing more in line with the PM G5, I think)

Ok, now, lets go forward a bit. Intel has just launched its Clovertown line of quad core xeons. Alright, they are quad cores compatable with the existing 2-socket Mac Pro! OCTA-CORE!!!!

Core i7 still does not support 2 CPUs, so server chips stay.
 
Why is Apple so dead-set on using Xeons in the Mac Pro?

The desktop processors are a *LOT* less expensive, and only a smidge slower.

The Mac Pro could be a much more affordable machine if they'd shift to desktop-grade CPUs, and the cost in performance would be minimal. Performance per dollar cost would skyrocket.

Thoughts?

Because consumer grade components suck in the long run compared to workstation/server grade hardware, which the Mac Pro is very capable of doing.
 
Step in the way-back machine to 2006. The PowerMac G5 Quad is on the market. It's time to bring in its Intel replacement. Well, you can't backslide on core count now, can you? You had 2 CPUs before, each with 2 cores, so you need either a single quad, or two duals. At the time, the only platform Intel had that could do that was Woodcrest. Kentsfield wouldn't come along for a few more months (actually, I wonder if that was why they originally said it would take until sometime in '07 to finish the Intel switch. Perhaps the MP was originally planned to be an X38/Kentsfield machine? That actually would've put its hardware and pricing more in line with the PM G5, I think)

There is also the memory issue. You needed dual socket systems to support more than 8GB of memory.
 
Because consumer grade components suck in the long run compared to workstation/server grade hardware, which the Mac Pro is very capable of doing.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that. Not to even touch on the term "pro" and "consumer" when it comes to dealing with computer hardware, but that way of thinking renders the MacBook Pro a consumer machine with consumer grade components, and just about every part of the Mac Pro sans the Xeon chips.

I like that the Mac Pro has server class chips in it, but it was nice having an upgradeable tower for around $1700 back in the G5 days, not to mention a single core tower for $1400 back in the G4 days.

I would love to have a cheaper tower with desktop class CPUs for $500-$700 less than the Mac Pro.
 
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k2director said:
No no no no no! First quarter of 2009? That's later than I hoped...probably Feb or March! Which means no new Mac Pro for at least 3-4 months from now.

I've got a 4 core 3.0GHz Mac Pro now and the rendering times are beginning to add up. Was hoping to upgrade in January, but looks like I've got a longer wait in store...

January and February are also in the Q1 and Apple has been known to buy up first shipments. Intel is not going to ruin Macworld announcements and irratate SJ by being more specific.
 
People have commented about how this isn't really a big jump over the old Mac Pro, it doesn't look like it per clock speed, but it's a big adjustment. As mentioned earlier, a 2.66 Nehalem bested a 3.2 Penryn, it's more efficient per clock.

Plus, they have done a bunch of new things: (1) remove the Front Side Bus, which was a bottleneck (2) used QuickPath Interface, which allows the processors to efficiently communicate with each other, and (3) have brought back HyperThreading, which will probably be taken advantage of in Snow Leopard. If you remember at the WWDC keynote that announced the transition to Intel, they were running Tiger on a Pentium 4, which had HyperThreading, not to say it's possible OS may be optimized for it right now. So instead of seeing 8 processors, it'll show 16 virtual processors.

Nehalem is big, it's as big as Core2 and bringing 64-bit processing to all Macs. As a matter of fact, Anandtech said Nehalem was really Intel's attempt to regain server market share since it's been getting killed by the AMD Opertons. This is exciting and I'm not even going to be getting a Mac Pro.
 
THIS IS GREAT NEWS! I bought my MP as a student developer. I'm not supposed to sell it in the first year.. but suppose I did sell it earlier would I run into any problems with apple since I broke their terms?

What if I did this and arranged to switch the warranty over AFTER a year was over? I think then I'd be in the clear.
 
I think they will demo Snow Leopard as the main focus. Perhaps new iPhone updates, completely new AppleTV.

Also new MacPro's and 30 inch LED monitor with the same features as the new 24inch LED.

My opinion.

The Mac Pro won't be shown at Macworld for a lot of reasons: they never show pro stuff at their consumer show, the CPUs may not ship until 10 weeks after the show, they don't want to show off the big improvement that Nehalem is when 97% of their sales will continue to rely on older CPU designs for most of 2009.

Now that it's obvious that Mac Pro updates are going to be 12-18 months apart, the least Apple could do is update some of the other components during that long wait to at least make the machines appear to be worth it. How can Apple honestly put the moniker "Pro" on a computer whose video card is two full generations out of date, with a hard drive smaller than those in $500 PCs?

Steve will talk about:

1. all the stuff they've done in the last year
2. some software (maybe a new iLife version)
3. a brief introduction of Snow Leopard
4. the updated iMac
5. the new Mac Nano (replaces the hopelessly outdated Mini)

There will be no "one more thing".

I don't expect Steve will spend much time talking about Snow Leopard because it won't ship before August.
 
Steve will talk about:

1. all the stuff they've done in the last year
2. some software (maybe a new iLife version)
3. a brief introduction of Snow Leopard
4. the updated iMac
5. the new Mac Nano (replaces the hopelessly outdated Mini)

There will be no "one more thing".

I don't expect Steve will spend much time talking about Snow Leopard because it won't ship before August.

You forgot the new all glossy, 20" and 30" LED Cinema displays. Very glassy, very glossy, and very not what many want they will be.

As for the small HDD. I'd rather Apple just pack the thing barebones or give us the option to include nothing but the GFX cards and wireless connectivity and let us grab the rest for less.
 
Now that it's obvious that Mac Pro updates are going to be 12-18 months apart, the least Apple could do is update some of the other components during that long wait to at least make the machines appear to be worth it. How can Apple honestly put the moniker "Pro" on a computer whose video card is two full generations out of date, with a hard drive smaller than those in $500 PCs?

They don't need to do any of that to sell systems, that's why it stays the same. All the would do by altering things is decrease their margins.
 
Memory?

Can anyone tell me what sort of memory system the New Mac Pro would use with Nahlem?

Will the Mac Pro be able to get away from FB Dimms which are such a bottleneck at the moment?

Cheers!
 
How could they be? The memory controller is now on the CPU.

Not only that quick path has replaced the front side bus.

Can anyone tell me what sort of memory system the New Mac Pro would use with Nahlem?

Will the Mac Pro be able to get away from FB Dimms which are such a bottleneck at the moment?

Cheers!

Both the single and dual socket versions of x58 use triple channel DDR3 memory. The Xeon versions of the CPUs and motherboards are essentially desktop boards with extra quickpath lanes for multi processing.
 
the New Core i7 is bringing back HT from the P4 era. i wonder how well HT will do on the core CPUs. i know HT was great in some respects but it did have its downfalls. i wonder if they improved on HT from the P4 era
 
the New Core i7 is bringing back HT from the P4 era. i wonder how well HT will do on the core CPUs. i know HT was great in some respects but it did have its downfalls. i wonder if they improved on HT from the P4 era

There were certain problems because HyperThreading has some "interesting" effects on performance that sometimes caught out the operating system.

With a single core and HT, that core can either run as a single processor at 100% speed, or as two processors each of maybe 60% speed. The first kind of software that was caught out was software that needed as much speed as possible in one thread, and a bit of speed in another thread. So the first thread is slowed down, and the second has more time than it needs.

The second problem is when your OS doesn't know about HT. Say you have two cores, 1 and 2. You have four virtual processors, 1a, 1b, 2a and 2b. You can combine one of 1a or 1b with one of 2a or 2b and both run at 100% speed. If the OS decides that you get processors 1a and 1b, then you are down to 60% speed. That is of course a stupid thing to do, and I wouldn't expect that to happen nowadays.

And as long as you are not trying to actively use nine or more processors, HT doesn't make a difference anyway. So the software is definitely better nowadays, and I think HT is more efficient in itself.
 
The only problem with "due for an update" is that architecturally, there is nothing to update to until these upcoming chips.

Yes, bigger/faster hard drives would be nice; better graphics cards would be nice, Blu-Ray would be nice... But those aren't really big enough to qualify for full "update" status. "minor rev", more like it. (Again, those would be VERY nice, I'm not trying to convince Apple to *NOT* update...)

I just really want a quad-core iMac...

the New Core i7 is bringing back HT from the P4 era. i wonder how well HT will do on the core CPUs. i know HT was great in some respects but it did have its downfalls. i wonder if they improved on HT from the P4 era

Most benchmarks show a decent improvement. Definitely nowhere near 100%, but a boost, nonetheless. (See Ars, for one example.)

There are a few tasks for which HT actually hurts; but those are mostly single-threaded. Essentially, you are trading slower individual threads for twice as many threads. So if you're using something that can actually make use of 8 threads, you'll see better performance than 4 threads on the same chip with HT off.

The second problem is when your OS doesn't know about HT. Say you have two cores, 1 and 2. You have four virtual processors, 1a, 1b, 2a and 2b. You can combine one of 1a or 1b with one of 2a or 2b and both run at 100% speed. If the OS decides that you get processors 1a and 1b, then you are down to 60% speed. That is of course a stupid thing to do, and I wouldn't expect that to happen nowadays.

Sadly, Vista is stupid on this. It gleefully pairs up processors exactly the way you describe. (It also rather stupidly bounces a single process around all your cores. Talk about a cache hit nightmare!)

Also, it appears that, if you follow standard Intel naming nomenclature, "Nehalem" is the codename for the processor architecture itself. "Core i7" is the trade name for the desktop chip; and from this and other rumor sites, it appears that the workstation/server chip will be "Xeon 5500" or "Xeon 3500" series parts. "i7" is purely the 'brand' for the desktop chip.

(Additional disclaimer: I may work in an Intel building, but I have no access to marketing info; so my knowledge on this is based solely on rumor sites. Heck, when I talked with someone who actually does know about the hardware side immediately after the "i7" name was announced; I was the one that he heard the name from. So even the people I deal with at Intel know nothing about the naming and marketing side of things.)
 
Could we see a new case design?!?! I am sick to death of the current look that has been around for AGES!!!!

Seriously... who thinks new case designs?
 
Input requested

I was hoping to get a little input from experts here. I have had a mac pro notebook since Feb 2004. I use this as my office/home computer (college professor) and do word/powerpoint/photoshop primarily and lots of web-based dna analysis. My laptop just croaked and it seems that the new pro's are not that much better than the higher end mac books? Can someone comment - thanks in advance.
 
What's the estimated time frame for the mobile versions to arrive? In about a year from now?
 
They can't replace dual socket systems with single socket systems so they would have to add a new machine. There are many reasons why they won't do that. It might be good for the consumer, but I doubt it makes straight up financial sense let alone from a marketing standpoint.

Sadly, you are probably right. A midi-tower model using less OTT hardware rendering a realistic price would totally slay MP sales. But still, damn I wish they would build a proper consumer oriented (most so called pros would do just fine too (you know the type - "Oh, I make flash animations, I'm a creative professional and I need a MP now!")) Mac with an update friendly architecture.
 
While I can understand the immense anticipation for Nehalem's release, especially its eventual implementation in Apple's consumer products, we must not forget that Apple have yet to release Quad-core iMac and MacBook Pros under the mobile Penryn architecture (although the processors already exist since September). I predict these will be presented in MW09, rather than updated MPs.
 
While I can understand the immense anticipation for Nehalem's release, especially its eventual implementation in Apple's consumer products, we must not forget that Apple have yet to release Quad-core iMac and MacBook Pros under the mobile Penryn architecture (although the processors already exist since September). I predict these will be presented in MW09, rather than updated MPs.

They use more power...
 
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