Mac Pro to Equivalent PC Price Comparison (laying the debate to rest)

[Mercuric Oxide]

The mac pro, in it's cheapest configuration, is a great deal if you need that much machine. It is the same price or cheaper than an "equivalent" machine.


the thing about it is, an equivalent machine is a powerhouse workstation, not a "regular" machine.

95% of the people using a Mac Pro don't need ECC RAM, except that the mac pro requires it. They don't need xeon cores. They probably don't need 8 cores right now, either. They don't need a workstation motherboard or 6 SATA hard drive capacity and a 1K-watt power supply.

The problem is that you can get (in most situations) 90% of what the mac pro has to offer in a PC that costs half as much or less. There is not, however, an equivalent Mac.

The imac costs too much and makes WAY too many compromises for the people who complain about the mac pro's cost vs. PCs. These people don't need a mac pro. They need a desktop machine that isn't built on a mobile platform (all non-xeon macs are mobile machines even if they aren't actually mobile).

the whole point is that nobody who needs a mac pro thinks they are overpriced. They've looked and they know. It's a good deal if you need 32gb of RAM space and processing power out the rear end.

It's a great deal, actually.

the problem is that the imac is NOT what most people want, and there is no Apple product that fills the void. If there were, Mac Pro sales would plummet, because most people buying mac pros don't need them. imac sales would plummet, too, because most people would rather buy a shuttle-sized desktop and connect a monitor to it.

so you're arguing with nobody. you're right, but nobody really cares that much.

I was merely proving that the "apple tax" myth is misleading (see my intro and conclusion ), and provided facts. I wasn't arguing with anyone.

The point is not whether you need the power and server class of a Mac Pro or not, the point is that Apple is not overcharging for the components that the Mac Pro is comprised of (excluding ram and HDD's).

 

[Infrared]

1) For more.
2) For more.
3) NOTHING out there for PCs looks as good as the cheese grater. Show me some stuff; I like looking at PC cases, but I eventually quit because they're all aesthetically displeasing.

I have nightmares about the HP Blackbird's ghastly foot.

IIRC Orwell wrote "If you want a picture of the future, imagine
a boot stamping on a human face".

I think he was referring to that foot.

 

[statikcat]

The problem with Apple is the current Mac Pro will be the same price for some time until the next revision and the closer to that point.. the worse the deal is. PC parts and PC builders prices drop much more often than Mac Pro. So generally towards the end of a Mac Pro cycle you will see much cheaper solutions.

 

[Mercuric Oxide]

The problem with Apple is the current Mac Pro will be the same price for some time until the next revision and the closer to that point.. the worse the deal is. PC parts and PC builders prices drop much more often than Mac Pro. So generally towards the end of a Mac Pro cycle you will see much cheaper solutions.

Yes, because a new MP just came out, the prices are equivalent.

This argument will not hold if it is late 2008 and the price and configuration remains the same (which may happen if the last cycle is any indication)

 

[Tallest Skil]

I have nightmares about the HP Blackbird's ghastly foot.

Well then, I'm sorry to report, but this is the Nehalem Mac Pro redesign...

 

[pastrychef]

At the end of the day, people will still walk away after reading this thread believing that Mac Pros are more expensive. Sometimes, it's impossible to change some people's minds...

 

[jb60606]

All of them crap

Oh c'mon, you couldn't possibly have paged through them all. Sure - the glittery plastic nonsense, and the rainbow-brite case fans, of the cheapo low-end cases is just flat out embarrassing, but some made by Lian Li, Cooler Master, Antec, etc are pretty damn nice aesthetically, on top of the benefit of expandability.

More importantly - they all stick to 1 to 3 standard motherboard form factors to assure compatibility with future motherboards and upgrades.

 

[CWallace]

Our HP workstations, even with a very nice government discount, still run us a bit more then a Mac Pro in identical configurations.

 

[pipomolo42]

Yes, because a new MP just came out, the prices are equivalent.

This argument will not hold if it is late 2008 and the price and configuration remains the same (which may happen if the last cycle is any indication)

Agreed. That's exactly why I bought a Mac Pro in August 2006: it was the cheapest quad core machine available.

But when I look at it know, I really feel I'm completely trapped. For example, Apple still asks $400 for a 2 years old x1900 ATI graphic card: http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=7E4EB91E&nplm=MA631Z/B

 

[jjahshik32]

So it's not uncommon to go into a thread and hear terms such as "apple tax" and all. Well I just specked out a PC equivalent to a Mac Pro, and contrary to what many people in the PC community who think you can score this for half the price as a MP, both computers come out to within $200 dollars of each other (guess which is cheaper)

PC:


(these are the aspects of the PC to show the similarity to the MP)

ASUS DSEB-D16 Server board
2 * Socket LGA771
Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® 5440 Series 12MB cache 1333 FSB (MP is 1600 FSB)

Intel® 5400 Memory Controller Hub (MCH) Intel® 6321ESB I/O Controller Hub (ICH)

Total Slots: 16 (4-channel)
Capacity: Maximum up to 64 GB
Memory Type: Fully-Buffered DIMM DDR2 533/667/800 Reg. ECC

Total PCI/PCI-X/PCI-E Slots: 4
Slot Location 1: 1 * PCI-E x16 Gen2
Slot Location 2: 1 * PCI-E x8 slot (x8 link)
Slot Location 3: 1 * PCI-E x16 Gen2
Additional Slot 1: 1 * SO-DIMM socket for optional ASMB3-SOL
Additional Slot 2: 1 * PCI-X 100/133MHz (for LSI 8300XLP ZCR Card)

Six SATA (RAID) slots, 1xEIDE, and 8 SAS.

Quad teamable gigabit LAN.


Components:

1. ASUS DSEB-D16 Server board: $640.00

2. CPU's: 2x Intel XEON 5440's, 2.83 GHz, $720/each

3. Case: Silverstone full-tower case, $270.00 w/hot swappable SATA Bays x4

4. RAM: 4x2GB sticks of fully-buffered 800Mhz RAM: $400.00

5. HDD: 2x500GB WD RE2 drives: $240.00

6. Video: ASUS GeForce 8800GT 512MB: $220.00

7. DVD: ASUS 20X SATA DVD-RW +/- DL with litescribe: $30.00

8. Firewire: 2x800Mbit, 2x400Mbit firewire card (case has header for front panel accessability) $35.00

9. Audio: Turtle Beach Montego 5.1 Channel sound card with dual optical out: $40.00

10. PSU: Zalman ZM1000-HP 1 KW Power Supply: $300

11. OS: Windows Vista Ultimate 64-bit single license OEM: $170 OR Linux (-$170)

12. Other: Logitech Keyboard + Mouse: $30


(Components from Newegg)

Total: $3645 (Linux/Pre-existing Windows license) OR $3815 (Windows Ultimate OEM)


Mac Pro

(we all know what the MP has, so I'm not going to spell everything out)

Quad-Core Intel® Xeon® 5462 Series at 2.80 GHz, 12MB cache 1600 FSB

Components

1. Server board

2. CPU's: 2x Intel XEON 5462's, 2.80 GHz

3. Case: MP Aluminum case

4. RAM: 4x2GB sticks of fully-buffered 800Mhz RAM: $400.00 (OWC)

5. HDD: 2x500GB WD RE2 drives: $240.00 (OWC)

6. Video: nVidia GeForce 8800GT 512MB (+$200 CTO)

7. DVD: 16X SATA DVD-RW +/- DL

8. Firewire: 2x800Mbit, 2x400Mbit

9. Audio: 5.1 Channel with dual optical out

10. PSU: 1 KW Power Supply

11. OS: Mac OSX Leopard

12. Other: Apple Wired Keyboard + Mouse

13. Other: Bluetooth 2.0

1-3,7-13 = Base Mac Pro: $2799

Total: $3640 (keep in mind, you're keeping the original 320GB HDD and 2GB Apple ram, so you will have 10 GB ram and an extra 320 GB HDD compared to the PC with 8GB and 2 x 500 GB).

Total: $3640

So a PC equivalent to a Mac Pro cannot be purchased for a cheaper price, but will cost you an additional $175 (or 5$ if you choose Linux or have an extra license of Windows). And not only that, you have to purchase all of these parts and build the computer yourself. So unless you have "mad skillz", your home built PC will be lacking in quality compared to the Mac Pro.

The only differences between the PC and Mac Pro are the FSB (1333 vs 1600), having those differences was as close as I could get. So getting a processor for the PC with the higher FSB would put the price of the PC even further beyond the price of a Mac Pro. The MP also has an extra 2 GB ram and 320GB HDD (from the base config), giving it even more of a boost.

Mac Pro advantages: Pre built, better build quality, OSX and Windows, CHEAPER.

PC Advantages: Better expandability (esp GPU)

So the next time you use the phrase apple tax, remember that it only refers to the additional components that can be purchased 3rd party (such as ram and HDD's), which any wise consumer would do.

Ahh, I knew in one of the previous threads some guy debated that he could equip a similar Pc counter part of the current Mac Pro for a $500 less! I knew it was wrong.. I remember the previous gen mac pro actually costing $400-$500 cheaper than the pc counterpart. Thanks for clearing that up once and for all!

 

[jb60606]

1) For more.
Many are in the same price range as slower models or just a few dollars more, though my argument was never price. I believe the MP is accurately priced, minus any Apple upgrades of course. I was simply pointing out that poster's misconceptions.
2) For more.
$20 for a couple Zalman fans. What a deal breaker. Water cooling will set you back $200, but at least it's an option.
3) NOTHING out there for PCs looks as good as the cheese grater. Show me some stuff; I like looking at PC cases, but I eventually quit because they're all aesthetically displeasing.
I'm sorry, but isn't this entirely subjective, or have you seriously decided that if you don't like it, no one should? Go to Newegg, choose aluminum or metal cases, start with the highest priced and page through them yourself. Back in the day, my personal favorites were usually made by Lian Li, CoolerMaster, & a couple I can't remember the names of. They were aluminum, had good thermal properties, lacked the acrylic windows and colored fans (and could be replaced, anyways), and they were typically workstation class cases. Most importantly - I wouldn't have to fork over $3,000+ just to upgrade them..

see quote

 

[hakuryuu]

Ugh this post REEKS of fanboyism.

Im only giving the other view here in this no doubt 100/1 sided argument but $300 for windows xp/ vista HAH! Yeah right.

This whole list is massively inflated, and regardless of whats under the hood of a mac pro you can buy something that matches 95% of its performance for less than half of the price. Seriously come on.

The post was not about performance, but about comparably equipped computers and the price. This includes workstation/server hardware which is more expensive. So if you want a WORKSTATION with WORKSTATION hardware then the Mac Pro is a great deal. Sure you can build a system with consumer hardware for much less, but certainly not an 8 core system as you can't put anything but Xeon or Opteron chips in multi processor configurations. Oh and yeah, a retail box of Windows XP is $300. OEM is cheaper of course.

 

[330toSRT8]

The mac pro, in it's cheapest configuration, is a great deal if you need that much machine. It is the same price or cheaper than an "equivalent" machine.


the thing about it is, an equivalent machine is a powerhouse workstation, not a "regular" machine.

95% of the people using a Mac Pro don't need ECC RAM, except that the mac pro requires it. They don't need xeon cores. They probably don't need 8 cores right now, either. They don't need a workstation motherboard or 6 SATA hard drive capacity and a 1K-watt power supply.

The problem is that you can get (in most situations) 90% of what the mac pro has to offer in a PC that costs half as much or less. There is not, however, an equivalent Mac.

The imac costs too much and makes WAY too many compromises for the people who complain about the mac pro's cost vs. PCs. These people don't need a mac pro. They need a desktop machine that isn't built on a mobile platform (all non-xeon macs are mobile machines even if they aren't actually mobile).

the whole point is that nobody who needs a mac pro thinks they are overpriced. They've looked and they know. It's a good deal if you need 32gb of RAM space and processing power out the rear end.

It's a great deal, actually.

the problem is that the imac is NOT what most people want, and there is no Apple product that fills the void. If there were, Mac Pro sales would plummet, because most people buying mac pros don't need them. imac sales would plummet, too, because most people would rather buy a shuttle-sized desktop and connect a monitor to it.

so you're arguing with nobody. you're right, but nobody really cares that much.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Last month when I was considering a new Mac Pro I searched high and low for a PC with equivalent specs and the parts to build one myself. Nothing comes close to the MP price at this time. The Dell and XP workstations that can actually handle 32GB of RAM are much more expensive. The quad-core Xeon processors alone put a huge dent in the budget to build it from scratch.
And you're right about most people not needing the high-end MP specs. I don't care about ECC RAM and would rather be able to use the cheaper stuff. What I want is a Mac that I can put my own HDs in and more than 4GB of RAM, but at a cost much less than the MP. Unfortunately, that's not available from Apple at this time.

 

[jjahshik32]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Last month when I was considering a new Mac Pro I searched high and low for a PC with equivalent specs and the parts to build one myself. Nothing comes close to the MP price at this time. The Dell and XP workstations that can actually handle 32GB of RAM are much more expensive. The quad-core Xeon processors alone put a huge dent in the budget to build it from scratch.
And you're right about most people not needing the high-end MP specs. I don't care about ECC RAM and would rather be able to use the cheaper stuff. What I want is a Mac that I can put my own HDs in and more than 4GB of RAM, but at a cost much less than the MP. Unfortunately, that's not available from Apple at this time.

What you are describing is an Xmac that has been discussed to death.

But one thing to consider that almost everyone looks over is that the Mac Pro 2.8 8 core stock is actually the same price as a 17" mbp. And for that price you get so much more power and expandability.

 

[Mercuric Oxide]

What you are describing is an Xmac that has been discussed to death.

But one thing to consider that almost everyone looks over is that the Mac Pro 2.8 8 core stock is actually the same price as a 17" mbp. And for that price you get so much more power and expandability.

You could also get a single quad core processor (which an x-mac would most likely have if it existed) instead and pay $2299.

 

[Soop53]

There is one thing that is missing in the PC vs Mac debate... You can not get the cool Apple logo stickers with a PC!!!

 

[vansouza]

And no matter how cool the cool factor is on a PC or the shock and awe of a speedy PC system is you still do not have OS/X. How much value does that bring or remove from the picture.

For me it is the OS that I have to have. hardware is gravy.

 

[Sesshi]

You're doing / thinking about this wrong.

Consider matching the spec of a halfway serious machine for this category, e.g.:

Dual 3.2Ghz
8Gb
RAID
4 x 300Gb 15K SAS
Quadro FX5600
Dual DVD+-RW drive
Airport Extreme
(Not my spec) Wireless mouse and keyboard
Applecare back to base (usually) warranty
Office 2008

$13,347,95

Now the equivalent Dell T7400. More reliable, more flexible, more resilient. Alas - noisier. Our 7400's have more in the way of graphics but no blu-ray.

Dual 3.2Ghz
8Gb
RAID
4 x 300Gb 15K SAS
Quadro FX5600
DVD+-RW drive plus 4x Blu-Ray drive
N wireless
Bluetooth mouse and keyboard
Dell 4-hour response on-site warranty, remote assistance, 24 x 7 second-line support
Office 2007 + Adobe Acrobat Standard

$12,554.00

<10% difference. There's nothing in it either way. The real difference is that the first machine is a professional machine that's been somewhat crippled to become consumer-friendly. The T7400 has fewer compromises to the hipster brigade and is a machine for doing real work on.

It's a little like comparing a Toyota Land Cruiser against a BMW X5. In general, working types drive the Land Cruiser because it works. In general, hard-of-thinking soccer moms drive the X5 because it looks the part. That's OK - just different priorities, is all.

 

[TheThirdMan]

the problem is that the imac is NOT what most people want, and there is no Apple product that fills the void. If there were, Mac Pro sales would plummet, because most people buying mac pros don't need them. imac sales would plummet, too, because most people would rather buy a shuttle-sized desktop and connect a monitor to it.

clearly that's not the case. It's the highest selling desktop of any manufacturer. You have obviously missed the whole apple thing. There's no hassle, no excess wires, no crappy monitor, no compatibility issues.

There's also this strange myth surrounding the gap between mac pro and the imac. There is no demand for one. What's the point???? How many pci slots would you have to "expand" it? OO, i know, lets have a small computer that we can "upgrade" with a single pci slot. Exciting....The fact is 99.9% of consumers never upgrade their computers and when they do its usually memory.

Apple is a company. They respond to demand. To say apple have it wrong is to deny the sales figures. The figures don't lie.

Now the equivalent Dell T7400. More reliable, more flexible, more resilient. Alas - noisier. Our 7400's have more in the way of graphics but no blu-ray.

More reliable? Don't dells run windows!? More flexible? Doesnt opening the case void the warranty?? Dunno what more resilient means.

consider matching the spec of a halfway serious machine for this category

That's the top spec for this category. What kind of stuff are you making exactly!!??

It's a little like comparing a Toyota Land Cruiser against a BMW X5. In general, working types drive the Land Cruiser because it works. In general, hard-of-thinking soccer moms drive the X5 because it looks the part. That's OK - just different priorities, is all.

Both drive cars that are completely unsuitable for what they are doing with them and both have spent far too much money on the car. Are you really saying the mac pro is used by people because it looks good!??

And again, you think windows works?? Have you used them recently!!??

I've just got a dell precision at work, i asked for it. But had my workflow accomodated it, i would have got another mac pro anyday.

 

[gauchogolfer]

Now the equivalent Dell T7400. More reliable, more flexible, more resilient. Alas - noisier. Our 7400's have more in the way of graphics but no blu-ray.

Dual 3.2Ghz
8Gb
RAID
4 x 300Gb 15K SAS
Quadro FX5600
DVD+-RW drive plus 4x Blu-Ray drive
N wireless
Bluetooth mouse and keyboard
Dell 4-hour response on-site warranty, remote assistance, 24 x 7 second-line support
Office 2007 + Adobe Acrobat Standard

$12,554.00

That's basically what I just ordered, only without the BR drive or 5600 (getting the 1700 instead, I believe) and with only one pair of SAS drives (and no wireless, due to security). I'm not sure what the retail price would be, but we are a bulk purchaser of HP workstations, so I'm sure we're getting a good discount. Our price will be around $8k, I believe. Pricing an equivalent MP (though with a GeForce 8800 in place of the 1700) the total comes to $7.8k. Like you said, not much space between them.

I noticed that with a riser card you can extend the 8x8 configuration up to 128GB of RAM! *Drools* (Too bad it's an extra $50k!)

 

[TheThirdMan]

clearly that's not the case. It's the highest selling desktop of any manufacturer. You have obviously missed the whole apple thing. There's no hassle, no excess wires, no crappy monitor, no compatibility issues.

There's also this strange myth surrounding the gap between mac pro and the imac. There is no demand for one. What's the point???? How many pci slots would you have to "expand" it? OO, i know, lets have a small computer that we can "upgrade" with a single pci slot. Exciting....The fact is 99.9% of consumers never upgrade their computers and when they do its usually memory.

Apple is a company. They respond to demand. To say apple have it wrong is to deny the sales figures. The figures don't lie.



More reliable? Don't dells run windows!? More flexible? Doesnt opening the case void the warranty?? Dunno what more resilient means.



That's the top spec for this category. What kind of stuff are you making exactly!!??



Both drive cars that are completely unsuitable for what they are doing with them and both have spent far too much money on the car. Are you really saying the mac pro is used by people because it looks good!??

And again, you think windows works?? Have you used them recently!!??

I've just got a dell precision at work, i asked for it. But had my workflow accomodated it, i would have got another mac pro anyday.

Just reading that back, i sound rly angry.

 

[jjahshik32]

Now the equivalent Dell T7400. More reliable, more flexible, more resilient. Alas - noisier.

I wouldnt say more reliable with windows, and I dont know where your getting the resilient part + the dell being a 1000x louder (might as well leave the dell byitself in its own room just to get away from the sound).

The real difference is that the first machine is a professional machine that's been somewhat crippled

I dont see the crippled part aside from just not being able to upgrade to the nvidia 8800gt on the older mac pros, otherwise if its #1 priority you can run other gpu's under windows via bootcamp for that one program.

to become consumer-friendly. The T7400 has fewer compromises to the hipster brigade and is a machine for doing real work on.

Real work on... osx has FCP and Aperture that real studios uses like in HOLLYWOOD.

It's a little like comparing a Toyota Land Cruiser against a BMW X5. In general, working types drive the Land Cruiser because it works. In general, hard-of-thinking soccer moms drive the X5 because it looks the part. That's OK - just different priorities, is all.

I'd say that the hard working DAD bought the BMW X5 for the wife to drive the kids around just incase of a car accident (BMW X5 much better build quality obviously) which they would be safer and she can avoid a collison (better handling) + not dieing in the end. I mean you could ride a moped back and forth to work that will still get the job done.

 

[TheThirdMan]

Real work on... osx has FCP and Aperture that real studios uses like in HOLLYWOOD.

Plus nasa, pixar, US department of defense, jack bauer....

 

[jjahshik32]

Plus nasa, pixar, US department of defense, jack bauer....

Dont forget important scientists

 

[Firefly2002]

Okay.. now configure a dual-core processor... on par with the high-end iMac. Only, the PC is configured with a 3 GHz CPU, which you can then OC to ~4.2 GHz.

Which is more realistic? Most users don't buy or want or need an 8 core system.