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I would be so interested to learn why at all their Mac Pro whole thing went so lame. The idea was cool to me (cool as in general sense, I certainly don't need that firepower), but it always felt like it was underfunded or undermanaged, updated rarely and finally died probably for lack of ideas what to do else.

But seriously, why? Was it not enough profitable to really keep up with it?

Especially strange to see how they now do Ultra models of everything or planning to do this year. So the high power stuff IS the margin, obviously and interests them.

Can't make sense of it all, or may be it was the idea but just poor execution killed it.
 

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Apple silicon killed the Mac Pro. AS is a mobile architecture, which does not belong anywhere near a computer that should be using a HEDT platform.

Gibberish. It’s an ARM platform not a mobile architecture. ARM was never designed for mobile. It’s just very efficient.

X86 yearly speed increases are minimal and ARMs are increasing.

As about a high end user about gets my studio runs rings around my x86 / 5080 for most video and effects work in actual day to day use. Though the 5080 is much faster at rendering ( though this is irrelevant as actual work goes to a farm )

IMG_4211.jpeg
 
Apple silicon embedded RAM, CPU and GPU is super efficient and fast but I do miss being able to add more ram and internal storage.

My Mac Pro 2019 has 768gb Ram and 14 TB of NVME storage now and still going strong.
 
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Gibberish. It’s an ARM platform not a mobile architecture. ARM was never designed for mobile. It’s just very efficient.

X86 yearly speed increases are minimal and ARMs are increasing.

As about a high end user about gets my studio runs rings around my x86 / 5080 for most video and effects work in actual day to day use. Though the 5080 is much faster at rendering ( though this is irrelevant as actual work goes to a farm )

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Apple's use of ARM in AS is about as much of a mobile use case as you can get. There is ZERO expandability. The AS Mac Pro was the most stupid product I have ever seen Apple make. Those customers want massive PCIE, GPU and storage expandability for example. What Apple offered was incredibly insulting.
 
I still have mine. Bought it with a 20" Apple Monitor at the time as a bundle from B&H Photo in NYC for $3,400. If I had bought $3,400 of AAPL instead 20 years ago, it would be worth $420K today after federal & state taxes today.
 
Gibberish. It’s an ARM platform not a mobile architecture. ARM was never designed for mobile. It’s just very efficient.

"ARM" and "Apple Silicon" are not the same thing.

Apple Silicon may implement the ARM64 instruction set (which can be used on anything from a watch to a supercomputer) but what makes Apple Silicon distinctive is the way it integrates everything - proprietary GPU, proprietary NPU, proprietary "media engine", storage controller - onto a system-on-a-chip with directly attached LPDDR RAM chips acting as unified memory, connects to "raw" flash storage modules rather than using NVMe and provides multiple on-chip Thunderbolt/USB4 controllers at the expense of only having a handful of PCIe lanes.

Of course Apple Silicon was designed for mobile - it evolved out of iPhone processors, and its primary application was the MacBook range which comprises the vast majority of Apple's Mac sales. The Mx Max die was definitely designed with the MacBook Pro in mind, the original M1/M2 Pro was "just" a Mx Mac die with half the GPU left off and the "Ultra" chips were two Mx Max dies fused together rather than something purpose-designed for a workstation. The astronomical cost of developing the Apple Silicon dies is spread across the whole Mac range.

Even an Ultra doesn't provide enough PCIe bandwidth for something comparable to the 2019 MP, and doesn't support plug-in DDR5 RAM. To make an "Apple Silicon" tower with multiple, GPU-compatible, 16-lane PCIe slots and masses of DDR5 RAM Apple would have to go back to the drawing board and produce a new die just for a Pro machine with >1% of the Mac Market. ...and the result woule be Apple Silicon in name only, because it would throw away many of the features that make Apple Silicon successful.

ARM chips designed for more conventional servers and workstations are available from Ampere, et. al. but wouldn't even run MacOS without a lot of work.

(...and ARM being originally designed as a desktop chip which wiped the floor with a 286/386 is ancient history - the design has changed beyond recognition and the later success of ARM has been largely founded on the mobile industry).

The Mac Pro benefitted all Mac users. That's because for people who could only afford the cheapest budget-level Macs, those budget-level Macs would eventually get some of the Mac Pro's cutting-edge tech after a couple of years.
In the Intel era - when all Macs were basically PC clones and everything from the MBP up had an x86 processor and an AMD dGPU/Intel iGPU combo - there was definitely a benefit in that the MP encouraged developers of "pro" software to support MacOS (although the fact that many of those applications had started on Mac back in the days when PCs were 16 but toys also helped).

...as for hardware tech... Hate to burst people's bubble but the Mac Pros were always the technically dullest Macs, being little more than generic Xeon systems blessed to run MacOS - apart from the T2 chip (mobile technology which had trickled up from iPhone) the only "cutting edge" tech in the 2019 Mac Pro came from Intel and AMD. The "incredible expandability" was from the latest Xeon-W processor which offered more PCIe lanes and RAM support than previous single-chip Xeons - coming soon to a generic PC tower near you. Well, the MPX slots were quite neat, but were hardly going to trickle down to Macbooks.

In the Apple Silicon age, what "lower end" Mac users need is software optimised for Apple Silicon GPUs, NPUs, Media engines and unified RAM. Preferably by using MacOS frameworks rather than OpenGL/CUDA etc. - which is what lets the lower-powered chipsets punch above their weight. What many people seem to be asking for in a Mac Pro is PCIe, AMD (or preferably NVIDIA + CUDA) GPUs - which means local VRAM rather than fully unified RAM. Software optimised for an ARM tower system is not going to perform well on lowerend machines.

Especially strange to see how they now do Ultra models of everything or planning to do this year. So the high power stuff IS the margin, obviously and interests them.

Ultra models are achieved by fusing together existing M-series die designs already developed for mass-market MacBooks (maybe different permutations of chiplets in future versions) - and the best they can do in a PCIe tower config is what you see with the 2023 Mac Pro. A more traditional Mac Pro would require a substantially new die with DDR5 support and substantially more PCIe - with most of those development costs needing to come from Mac Pro sales, it would cost a fortune.

Meanwhile, as posted earlier, a market is emerging for unified RAM AI workstations which - at the very least - are closer to the Mac Studio concept than a traditiona box'o'slots.

I have a mac studio sitting here on my desk and my biggest gripe by far is that you can't just upgrade the storage.
Yes, the non-upgradeable storage (which is actually upgradeable if you feel lucky, trust an unknown supplier of cloned modules and have a second Mac to run configurator) in the Mini and Studio is 100% on Apple, who could fix it with the stroke of a pen.

M.2. is harder, because Apple Silicon is designed around the on-chip storage controller that has direct access to the unified RAM but doesn't use NVMe, so you probably want to stick with that for your system drive. The Mx Max doesn't seem to have enough uncommitted PCIe lanes to drive (say) a pair of x4 M.2 slots, but a Mx Ultra machine has a spare SSD connector which (given that's where a bunch of the PCIe lanes come from on the 2023 MP) could do that.
 
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2013 mac pro was the perfect design. unfortunate most customers don't know what is a good design
It was a thermal deadend and it was a design that bet big on GPGPU and openCL, which didnt pan out as Apple expected. It was a very *cool* design, and I like mine, but it was a poor design from a product line POV

That said it was a stab at the same concept of workstation as the G4 Cube (and the NeXT Cube before it, as well as other similar workstations like SGI’s O2) and they did finally get it fully right with the Studio
 
"ARM" and "Apple Silicon" are not the same thing.

Apple Silicon may implement the ARM64 instruction set (which can be used on anything from a watch to a supercomputer) but what makes Apple Silicon distinctive is the way it integrates everything - proprietary GPU, proprietary NPU, proprietary "media engine", storage controller - onto a system-on-a-chip with directly attached LPDDR RAM chips acting as unified memory, connects to "raw" flash storage modules rather than using NVMe and provides multiple on-chip Thunderbolt/USB4 controllers at the expense of only having a handful of PCIe lanes.

Of course Apple Silicon was designed for mobile - it evolved out of iPhone processors, and its primary application was the MacBook range which comprises the vast majority of Apple's Mac sales. The Mx Max die was definitely designed with the MacBook Pro in mind, the original M1/M2 Pro was "just" a Mx Mac die with half the GPU left off and the "Ultra" chips were two Mx Max dies fused together rather than something purpose-designed for a workstation. The astronomical cost of developing the Apple Silicon dies is spread across the whole Mac range.

Even an Ultra doesn't provide enough PCIe bandwidth for something comparable to the 2019 MP, and doesn't support plug-in DDR5 RAM. To make an "Apple Silicon" tower with multiple, GPU-compatible, 16-lane PCIe slots and masses of DDR5 RAM Apple would have to go back to the drawing board and produce a new die just for a Pro machine with >1% of the Mac Market. ...and the result woule be Apple Silicon in name only, because it would throw away many of the features that make Apple Silicon successful.

ARM chips designed for more conventional servers and workstations are available from Ampere, et. al. but wouldn't even run MacOS without a lot of work.

(...and ARM being originally designed as a desktop chip which wiped the floor with a 286/386 is ancient history - the design has changed beyond recognition and the later success of ARM has been largely founded on the mobile industry).


In the Intel era - when all Macs were basically PC clones and everything from the MBP up had an x86 processor and an AMD dGPU/Intel iGPU combo - there was definitely a benefit in that the MP encouraged developers of "pro" software to support MacOS (although the fact that many of those applications had started on Mac back in the days when PCs were 16 but toys also helped).

...as for hardware tech... Hate to burst people's bubble but the Mac Pros were always the technically dullest Macs, being little more than generic Xeon systems blessed to run MacOS - apart from the T2 chip (mobile technology which had trickled up from iPhone) the only "cutting edge" tech in the 2019 Mac Pro came from Intel and AMD. The "incredible expandability" was from the latest Xeon-W processor which offered more PCIe lanes and RAM support than previous single-chip Xeons - coming soon to a generic PC tower near you. Well, the MPX slots were quite neat, but were hardly going to trickle down to Macbooks.

In the Apple Silicon age, what "lower end" Mac users need is software optimised for Apple Silicon GPUs, NPUs, Media engines and unified RAM. Preferably by using MacOS frameworks rather than OpenGL/CUDA etc. - which is what lets the lower-powered chipsets punch above their weight. What many people seem to be asking for in a Mac Pro is PCIe, AMD (or preferably NVIDIA + CUDA) GPUs - which means local VRAM rather than fully unified RAM. Software optimised for an ARM tower system is not going to perform well on lowerend machines.



Ultra models are achieved by fusing together existing M-series die designs already developed for mass-market MacBooks (maybe different permutations of chiplets in future versions) - and the best they can do in a PCIe tower config is what you see with the 2023 Mac Pro. A more traditional Mac Pro would require a substantially new die with DDR5 support and substantially more PCIe - with most of those development costs needing to come from Mac Pro sales, it would cost a fortune.

Meanwhile, as posted earlier, a market is emerging for unified RAM AI workstations which - at the very least - are closer to the Mac Studio concept than a traditiona box'o'slots.


Yes, the non-upgradeable storage (which is actually upgradeable if you feel lucky, trust an unknown supplier of cloned modules and have a second Mac to run configurator) in the Mini and Studio is 100% on Apple, who could fix it with the stroke of a pen.

M.2. is harder, because Apple Silicon is designed around the on-chip storage controller that has direct access to the unified RAM but doesn't use NVMe, so you probably want to stick with that for your system drive. The Mx Max doesn't seem to have enough uncommitted PCIe lanes to drive (say) a pair of x4 M.2 slots, but a Mx Ultra machine has a spare SSD connector which (given that's where a bunch of the PCIe lanes come from on the 2023 MP) could do that.
There’s a lot in there that’s wrong, and I’m not addressing all of it, but I’ll note a few things:

1) apple *does* use nvme for storage on AS, they have their own controller but it’s still nvme. That’s why it wasnt totally awful for Asahi Linux folks to get a linux driver out for it (something that actually got tweaked only a couple days ago https://www.phoronix.com/news/Apple-NVMe-Linux-Fixes-Firmware )

2) A SoC != mobile. Hell, Intel has made Xeon SoCs (the Xeon D series) if you want to compare x86 to AS/ARM

3) the third party options for mini/studio storage upgrades arent “cloned”, and while yes, you need a second mac to run configurator, it isnt as difficult or as finicky as you seem to think

4) what makes AS distinct isnt that it’s a SoC, it’s that it’s a custom design that exposes the ARM ISA, not a stock ARM design.

5) even a lot of workstation x86 chips dont provide the amount of pcie lanes you’re talking about and rely on either dedicated downstream switches or northbridge style controllers to break out the CPU’s more limited lanes into more downstream lanes (that can indeed face bus bandwidth contention back to the CPU if everything downstream is in use at the same time)
 
I would be so interested to learn why at all their Mac Pro whole thing went so lame. The idea was cool to me (cool as in general sense, I certainly don't need that firepower), but it always felt like it was underfunded or undermanaged, updated rarely and finally died probably for lack of ideas what to do else.

This is the viewpoint of wanting to champion the classic 'box with slots' product. The bigger picture there is larger demographic impacts/trends than that changed and Apple didn't follow a 'stuck in time bubble' strategy.
So what users were doing/behaving had as much impact on Apple as Apple had impact on the Mac Pro.

Changing Demographics.

i. The percentage of laptops sold from the era PowerMacG4/G5 and MacPro 2016 to now have changed substantively.

Back when Apple was handing out numbers. (portables is blue and desktops is grey )
mac-portables-increase-share.jpg



Since Apple has dropped explicit statistics it has only gotten worse. And it isn't an 'Apple only' thing either. Same basic general shift in overall PC market windows/macOS/Linux all primarily showing the same shift.

To a large extent, it s linked to the comment you made , 'I don't certainly need that firepower'. Back when laptops were substantively weaker larger number of users for 'forced'/'herded' into buying a desktop because that was the only performance option that met their workload demands. Even in Apple Desktops as the iMac shifted from 'mobile CPU/GPU" to Desktop CPU/GPU it also took more share from other desktops. ( Mini was kneecapped due to self imposed constraints and the Mac Pro price crept higher. Along with Intel/AMD CPU/GPU costs. )

Recently, Apple rolling out the Mac Neo while at same time dropping the Mac Pro was not going to lead to a net drop in unit sales at all.

I think it was around 2017 where Apple said that Mac Pro was somewhere around 'single digit' of mac sales. Some folks hand-waved and said this might it was around 6-8% when far likely this was hovering more close to 1%. Once not even a single digit percentage are they are even going to do a product? Apple does not have an objective to make everything for everybody.

Apple shifting to more of a laptop focus is something that the market is doing at least as much as a 'directive' being pushed by Apple onto users. Apple main focus over last decade has been putting 'workstation' like performance into a 14/16" laptop form factor for the MBP. Some of that was putting extremely capable focused fixed function units into the SoC. Mac Pro 2019 Afterburner card to run ProRes RAW.... 3 years later iPad Pro does even more ProRes RAW at a far lower cost. Don't always need 'brute force' power to get things done.


ii. So the pool of Mac Pro users is relatively smaller. That is made even worse by substantive fractions of that pool upgrading on much longer cycles. Some numbers to put into perspective, so there is a user base of around 800,000 users total. If vast majoirty only upgrade every 10 years then

800,000 / 10 --> 80,000 upgraders a year.
800,000 / 9 --> ~88K
800K / 8 ---> 100K
800K / 7 ---> ~114K
800K / 6 ---> ~133k
800K / 5 ---> 160K
800K / 4 ---> 200K


Note how the Vision Pro was a huge 'fail' in most of these forums and tech press analysis at a run rate of about 300K/year. A number higher than any of these.

If upgrade buys are slower , then more than a good chance that Apple is going to upgrade slower. If sell every two years then on charge above fro 5-7 range get about 220-300K pool to sell into if that is dominate range.

Is Apple going to do massive draws from the Windows side in this space? Probably not. Folks who primarily want the an inexpensive containers to put the most commodity priced parts into are not coming to Apple in droves on the laptop side either.

Workstations in the power Xeon-W class space shrank on the windows side also. Apple eschewed the xMac for various reasons, but post the Intel-CPU transition, the Mac Pro never was suppose to be the old sub $2K PowerMac .

Apple stopped reported unit sales for Mac in 2018 but last years (pulled from Google AI overview but look about right).

"...
Final Years of Apple-Reported Mac Unit Sales
• Fiscal Year 2018: 18.2 million units
  • Fiscal Year 2017: 19.27 million units
  • Fiscal Year 2016: 18.52 million units
  • Fiscal Year 2015: 20.57 million units (the peak year for Mac unit sales)
  • Fiscal Year 2014: 18.92 million units
  • Fiscal Year 2013: 16.33 million units
..."

Even if take the 800K pool and compare to those yearly rates, it is mainly a smaller and smaller percentage. Estimates now are that Apple is in the 20-30M run rate per year range. Apple Silicon transition only pushed the unit numbers higher still.

Even going back a few more years.
apple-unit-sales-20151.png


The 'box with slots' were mainly a dominate category for Mac back when Apple relatively didn't sell that many Macs. They were a 'big fish' in 'small pond'. The general Mac trendline though is methodical forward progress. The hype that Apple had abandoned/under-invested the Mac really didn't match what the results were. The Mac never showed the growth rates of the others , but Apple didn't really abandon it. ( The Mac is selling into a vastly more mature general PC market. Just not going to see hypergrowth at that maturity state. ). In the bigger pond, the Mac Pro wasn't a 'big fish'. The 'big' was more so an illusion of the small pond than of being actually 'big'.


Apple is also not afraid in the graph above for iPhones to kill off iPods. ( and iPads have corrected the slide at this point. It isn't a declining category. No the most expensive iPad Pro didn't form the core of that turn-around. ). Apple also stopped the Mini from going after taking share away from the remaining iMac.

After the Mac Pro 2013 growth went up. If the Mac Pro was a super critical factor to overall Mac unit sales growth ...how could that happen? It is not. Apple focused on the systems that were critical to drive growth and did a decent job.


3. Even during the 2006=2012 the market dynamics of the GPU cards was substantively broken. Apple would commission their own standard config cards and a few other optional config cards. Then more than a few folks would wait for the hacks to copy the bootrom and drivers over to off the shelf windows card so as to not pay for the additional work. ( at the low levels macOS is not Windows. more work is required to make it work well on macOS).

Apple tolerated hackintosh but doesn't particularly enhance health of Mac Pro product if again folks just by pass paying for the addition work to do a Mac Pro in soft/firmware.

There is a group of folks in the Mac Pro user pool that think GPU drivers will just fall out of the sky because the Mac Pro exists. When Apple move the entire rest of the Mac product line off of 3rd party GPUs, that has impact on Mac Pro. The volume of those other units were a major reason the GPU drivers got done for each generation class.

AMD and Nvidia out to make the higher end GPUs as hot as possible didn't really help either. By 2015-2017 Apple was doing very serious work on their own implement and really did not buy into the 'infinity and beyond' on power consumption as being necessary. Also didn't help that Intel and AMD bumbled a but in this era on implementations of CPU and GPU respectively. And 'not a good partner' behavior put Nvidia in the doghouse; so pragmatically not an option.

All the Mac product 2016 and after were mainly transition prep for the transition. Apple may not have know in 2014-15 when the transition would happen, but probably did know there would be a transition eventually.



But seriously, why? Was it not enough profitable to really keep up with it?

Probably more a mismatch in opportunity costs than profits.

a. Less money spent on optimizing Apple GPU drivers and code would mean higher risk for the who Mac (and most of the iPad ) ecosystem .
[ e.g., Intel's foray into higher end dGPU was limited by drivers that didn't make the iGPU to dGPU focus switch well and also covering all the legacy cruft that is the PC gaming market. Apple had a much simpler and more consistent target that spanned watch-phone-ipad-macs. ]

b. keep macOS on Intel around just for Mac Pro? Versus put that effort into a better macOS on the vast majority of systems in the ecosystem.


c. Apple's standard modus operandi for internally designed silicon is to put it into multiple products. Each product doesn't get an individual die . The same die is shared across multiple products. Apple concentrates on making fewer, but better than competition dies rather than making individual dies for 'everyone'.

By several accounts Apple attempted to make an "bigger than Ultra , Extreme" part , but even if came to market would have been too expensive to drive any 'volume' that might 'save' the Mac Pro. Some kind of 'vanity' product would be on very thin ice even if did make it out the door. [ The M5 Ultra design when revealed may show that not all of that work was a 'bust' . 4 'chiplets' but only getting an 'ultra' out of that. ]

[ for a long while AMD tried to match Intel toe-to-toe with largest product catalog possible. If dealing with non-monopoly user pools have to pick you battles. Do some products and let others go. Intel is in basically almost same boat now. There was no way Apple was going to have SoC catalog that was going to be as wide and broad as Intel after moving away. ]


Especially strange to see how they now do Ultra models of everything or planning to do this year. So the high power stuff IS the margin, obviously and interests them.

If there is enough LPDDR5 RAM to go around, then there will be a Mac Studio Ultra version. Apple doesn't need a Mac Pro to ship something with an 'Ultra' tag on it.

The MacBook Ulra maybe appearing because perhaps Mn Max chips won't appear every generation just like Mn Ultra chip didn't. Other vendors don't throw their largest chips into the trash can every 12 months and Apple isn't doing any special here to keep doing that long term either. The Mac Pro with a trailing edge M2 Ultra because might need to extend the life is a problem for the Mac Pro over the longer term.

The AirPod Ultra pretty likely is mainly just some cameras attached to the same fundamental AirPod (maybe the next gen foundation but the unit numbers would come in futures) . They are not decoupling from AirPod product.


The Xeon-Workstation chips were really side effects of Intel doing Xeon chips for larger servers. There were far more repurposed silicon than design for dies. So the server customers are paying for the bulk of the R&D. Decouple the server market and it isn't a viable a product. Decoupling from Intel meant decoupling from multiple factors. consumer CPU cores. iGPU cores , and server CPU cores (also several levels of dGPUs). Not going to get replacements for all of those with dramatically smaller unit numbers.

Can't make sense of it all, or may be it was the idea but just poor execution killed it.

Apple made some bad moves.

1. The Mac Pro 2013 was somewhat conceived as a OpenCL at about the point Apple pivoted to Metal.
It has other major design problems but that could have been a counterbalance to problems that fell through
the cracks.

2. Apple either should have done the iMac Pro ( and perhaps T2 chip) sooner ( 2016 ) or refactored the MP design in 2015-6 to fill the gap better. ( either strip out the 2nd GPU + non-triangular block in the smaller enclosure or backslide toward older Mac Pro form factor) The Rip van Winkle mode is at deep odds with their rigid no discussion of future products policy. The assumption built into the policy is that will "do things" on a somewhat frequent basis. 3 years is too long. (deliver future products more than just talk about them) I think at one point there was a blog that highlighted that the iMac Pro and Mac Pro was some product management so wouldn't get both at the same time.

The whole butterfly keyboard clean-up on 'aisle 12' was largely decoupled from the Mac Pro because but a distraction also They tried to fix-it. Still didn't work as well, but at least there was moment over a couple of years.

By April 2017 Apple had to partially bail on the 'no future product discussion' policy because was getting to ridiculous point on "days since refresh" time clocks (e.g., mac rumors Buyers Guid 'clock'. ). The 'good product management' would have meant never would have needed that crisis meeting.

3. Although Apple was very unlikely to grab a gallon of CUDA kool-aid and drink until intoxicated, Apple also took all the wrong lessons from CUDA has primarily a moat building mechanism as they applied it to Metal. Apple was unhappy with the Khronos Group ( OpenCL/GL/Vulkan ). They missed the 'add an AI accelerator' compute card wave. Intel was pushing OneAPI ( SyCl and some other frameworks). AMD had RocM (HIP, OpenCL, OpenMP ) . Apple deprecated the major open standards (OpenCL/OpenGL) and replaced with largely nothing as open. They made porting to Apple Silicon as expensive as possible for software that tried to be multiplatform at the more POSIX/UNIX level. In that context, once again Apple painted themselves into a corner with largely purely self inflicted constraints.

Similarly Apple was slow as molasses adopting RDMA frameworks with core OS support. All of that should have been in place before rolled out Mac Pro on Apple Silicon.

Apple did extremely little to growth in the PCI-e card ecosystem around macOS. Most thunderbolt Mac could support a Thunderbolt external enclosure ( there are solutions that Apple seems to indirectly leverage like xMac Mini/Studio from Sonnet Technologies. ). There is a variety of stuff but most all seems to be coasting pre MP 2019 deployments for volume. ( still a fair number of kext only drivers which is deprecated and probably on thin ice after macOS on Intel completely fades away. )

The Mac Pro 2023 launch and Apple mainly talked about the expensive (high sunk cost ) legacy cards you put into the machine. Almost nothing forward looking there at all. [ The Mac Pro 2019 has some backwards looking stuff. the R4 HDD focused subsystem. But there was far more forward looking than backward looking cards. ]

I don't think the Mac Pro product management should have been in charge of all PCI-e add-in cards development for the whole ecosystem. I suspect defacto it was there as a side-effect when Mac Pro had bigger footprint. But declined as MP 2013 came to live and sagged over time.


4. Thunderbolt kool-aid. April 2017 Apple explicity mentions that over reliance on Thunderbolt was a mistake. Less than 10 years later back to drinking same kool-aid was drinking when painted themselves into a corner in 2016-2017.

5. Splitting the Rack and Desktop case. Increasing the Mac Pro entry price by 100% was going to prune off a substantive fraction of the classic MacPro user base. So going to be lower volume product. Now make it an even LOWER volume chassis by splitting the rack and tower versions. There could have been a central core that attached with rail or a stand too. Neither one of them would have been as individually 'pretty', but the Mac Pro didn't need excessively 'pretty'.
 
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Maybe they could find a less boring design for the Studio - the 'classic Mac Mini' footprint was initially determined by the need to hold an optical drive - but please don't copy the trashcan. I'd rather they looked at real issues like easily cleanable filters and more easily user-replaceable SSDs...

Opening the case and accessing the drive is one aspect of the MP2013 design did well . Apple doesn’t do filters but if adjusted probably would work . But with cover off, there is no barrier to compressed air cleaning .

The desktop foot print whatever Apple might do is likely still constrained to that 7x7 size. the cylinder was even smaller than that.
 
But seriously, why? Was it not enough profitable to really keep up with it?


As entry-level computer power increased, that canibalised the market for the Pro. 20 years ago, if you were doing video or audio work -- or even heavy print production -- you needed a Pro. (The only alternative was an iMac, which didn't have the graphics grunt and had a laptop CPU.)

Processing needs have increased over time, of course, but CPU power has increased at a much faster rate. The 8-core M4 CPU in the MacBook Air scores higher on Geekbench than the 28-core 2019 Mac Pro!

You can use a Mac Mini to do 8K video editing, or 128-track audio mixing and sample rendering, or whatever other large computation job you might want. Why pay more?

Sure, there are some jobs for which every second saved is a dollar earned, but they are increasingly few, and if the numbers don't work, Apple won't support it.
 
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There’s a lot in there that’s wrong, and I’m not addressing all of it, but I’ll note a few things:
Wow, what a lovely barrel of red herrings and strawmen...

1) apple *does* use nvme for storage on AS, they have their own controller but it’s still nvme. That’s why it wasnt totally awful for Asahi Linux folks to get a linux driver out for it (something that actually got tweaked only a couple days ago https://www.phoronix.com/news/Apple-NVMe-Linux-Fixes-Firmware )

The flash modules on Mac Minis, Studios and Pros are not NVMe. NVMe is how the CPU communicates with the SSD controller - which is usually located on the M.2 stick or PCIe SSD card. Apple puts the SSD controller on the SoC and the flash modules are "dumb" flash memory with a low-level PCIe interface. The SSD controller embedded in Apple Silicon may well present as an NVMe controller to software, but that doesn't make Apple's proprietary flash modules NVMe.

2) A SoC != mobile. Hell, Intel has made Xeon SoCs (the Xeon D series) if you want to compare x86 to AS/ARM
I didn't say it was - but the SoC format (a) was popularised by mobile & embedded devices and (b) not ideal for traditional PCIe -centric workstations. Apple Silicon is very definitely an evolution of the A-series SoCs that Apple developed for iPhones and iPads. Pretty sure Xeon D was aimed at "microservers" which may not be mobile, but certainly aren't personal video/graphics/AI workstations. As I said, SoC designs are gaining popularity in "workstations" but those are more like Mac Mini/Studios than tower workstations.

3) the third party options for mini/studio storage upgrades arent “cloned”, and while yes, you need a second mac to run configurator, it isnt as difficult or as finicky as you seem to think
The third party modules are unofficially reverse-engineered from Apple's modules. If that doesn't fit your definition of "cloning" we'll just have to disagree.

Needing configurator may not be rocket surgery but it's still a deterrent to many.

4) what makes AS distinct isnt that it’s a SoC, it’s that it’s a custom design that exposes the ARM ISA, not a stock ARM design.
No, that's what makes Apple's processor cores distinct from ARM's stock processor core designs.

Apple Silicon is a range of systems-on-a-chip that also feature Apple's proprietary GPUs, NPUs, media engines and unified RAM architecture, and many of the advantages of Apple Silicon arise from how they work together. You mentioned Asahi Linux - with all due respect to their wonderful efforts, guess why they still only really support M1/M2 - and even then with a long list of ifs and buts. Hint: it's not because of Apple's implementation of the ARM ISA.

5) even a lot of workstation x86 chips dont provide the amount of pcie lanes you’re talking about and rely on either dedicated downstream switches or northbridge style controllers to break out the CPU’s more limited lanes into more downstream lanes (that can indeed face bus bandwidth contention back to the CPU if everything downstream is in use at the same time)
So what? The sort of x86 CPUs you'd consider for a multi-GPU tower workstation to succeed the 2019 MP do support at least 64 PCIe lanes. Even the 2019 Mac Pro used switches and configuration options to support more than 64 lanes worth of slots - but it was starting with more than twice the number of lanes as a M3 Ultra.
 
It was a thermal deadend and it was a design that bet big on GPGPU and openCL, which didnt pan out as Apple expected. It was a very *cool* design, and I like mine, but it was a poor design from a product line POV

That said it was a stab at the same concept of workstation as the G4 Cube (and the NeXT Cube before it, as well as other similar workstations like SGI’s O2) and they did finally get it fully right with the Studio
like what Apple did with killing flash, Mac Pro 2013 would have killed intel chips from the lineup sooner.
 
The Mac Pro benefitted all Mac users. That's because for people who could only afford the cheapest budget-level Macs, those budget-level Macs would eventually get some of the Mac Pro's cutting-edge tech after a couple of years.

Generally not really true. The Mac Pro didn't get a GPU architecture 102 and then years later that exact same GPU architecture 102 shows up in the lower end of the Mac products.

In the 2016 era, Intel had there 'mobile' and 'desktop' CPU packages on different architectures, but newer Macs tended to pick up the same 'newest' tech Intel was offering. When Intel merged 'mobile' and 'desktop' CPU core architectures it was even closer. Low end Macs might have had a single core of a specific Intel arch and mac Pro had multiple cores ... but that is a bit of hand-waving to label that 'new tech'. Primarily it is question of constructing a bigger die with the same 'technology'.

Mac Pro 2016 ports
" USB 2.0 , FireWire 400, 800 , 1GbE ethernet , [ internal 3Gb/s SATA ,

iMac 20" ports
" USB 2.0 , FireWire 400 , 1GbE ethernet [ Internal SATA 1.5Gb/s, ]

MacBook Pro 17"
" USB 2.0 , FireWire 400, 800 , 1GbE ethernet [ Inernal SAZTA 1.5Gb/s ]
Can handwave at the SATA 3.0 versus 1.5Gb/s difference, but that wasn't Apple or some essential element of Mac Pro. That was Intel segmenting its market on I/O chipset. Apple has essential zero design input into that. That is just Apple buying off-shelf components. [ In part, also driven by most affordable HDD running at 5,400rpm. 1.5Gb/s is more than faster than that. ]

The iMac is missing the FW800 only because Apple is shaving costs, not because the technology has to b e 'enabled' by the Mac Pro somehow. It is present on MBP 17". Apple is practicing product segmentation here. not technology enablement. Another $10 or so of parts and teh iMac could have had FW800 also.


by 2009 The mobile I/O chipset is SATA 3.0Gb/s

and Mac Pro hasn't gone anywhere in 2009. And if the rest of the Mac line wasn't using the 'mobile' I/O chipset there would have been 3Gb/s. As Apple moved the iMac onto the Intel Desktop. CPU packages they picked up the desktop I/O packages. If Apple had used an Intel desktop processor in 2006-7 era it would have happened earlier. Therefore, it was really just a difference in i/O chipset design/cost.

On Intel's tick/tock schedule the server CPUs would skip years on support chipsets while the desktop/mobile I/O chipset would more regularly. Server were not necessarily going to keep the default ports provisioning that the forefront of technology. (not going to find Thunderbolt 3/4/5 on a Intel based server system by default). By the end of the Intel era the desktop I/O was moving faster than the server was.

The existence of the Mac Pro line allowed Apple to innovate without as much restriction for cost-cutting, since professional-level customers were often willing to spend a lot more than consumer-level and budget-level customers.

For the bulk of the Intel era, Apple's Mac user ports and PCI-e slot configuration were 100% driven by the 3rd party parts they bought. Apple "innovating" by just using other folks stuff?

Most of the complaints of the Mac Pro changes is about shrinking access to commodities ( i.e., commonly available from multiple supplies, non unique stuff.) That is more a focus on pricing than technology.


If 99% of the mac ecosystem goes to having highly optimized unified memory GPUs then Apple 'innovating' to create a discrete GPU doesn't 'benefit all users'. Pushing the Mac Pro to a architecture that is a substantive mismatch to the rest of the Mac ecosystem does more to fragment the ecosystem rather than benefit all users.

The Mac Pro got new dGPU coverage largely because other Macs ( some iMac and some MBP ) were also moving to a new GPU architecture offering from that vendor that won Apple's bake-off contest. Effectively, similar on the CPU side. Once the buik of the ecosystem quits. AMD/intel/Nvidia then Mac Pro is not a self sufficient island unto itself.
 
It was a thermal deadend and it was a design that bet big on GPGPU and openCL, which didnt pan out as Apple expected. It was a very *cool* design, and I like mine, but it was a poor design from a product line POV

That said it was a stab at the same concept of workstation as the G4 Cube (and the NeXT Cube before it, as well as other similar workstations like SGI’s O2) and they did finally get it fully right with the Studio
like what Apple did with killing flash, Mac Pro 2013 would have killed intel chips from the lineup sooner.

thoughts on flash. 2010.

Flash actually dying. 2020

Apple leaving Flash behind didn't really kill it , only slowed it until something else could kill it. Not a mostly Apple effort.

The Mac Pro 2013 more so represented a change in Apple's expectations to keep drifting to larger and larger thermal loads. The MP2013 was more so setting a bar as to how much computation can put into about 400-450W . The shapes have changed. cylinder , large screen iMac , Mac Studio, but all around the same general zone.


If Intel (and AMD) had gotten onto the same expectation path then Apple might have kept them longer. That they went on the 'hotter is not so bad' path got them removed sooner rather than later.

As Apple built more and more of their own SoC , their expectation shift wasn't entirely arbitrary or ungrounded technically.


I don't think the MP 2013 was a Cube re-invention. The Cube didn't push performance at all. The higher end CPU at that era when into the PowerMac above it. It was a 'appeal to Steve's nostalgia' play though.
 
thoughts on flash. 2010.

Flash actually dying. 2020

Apple leaving Flash behind didn't really kill it , only slowed it until something else could kill it. Not a mostly Apple effort.

The Mac Pro 2013 more so represented a change in Apple's expectations to keep drifting to larger and larger thermal loads. The MP2013 was more so setting a bar as to how much computation can put into about 400-450W . The shapes have changed. cylinder , large screen iMac , Mac Studio, but all around the same general zone.


If Intel (and AMD) had gotten onto the same expectation path then Apple might have kept them longer. That they went on the 'hotter is not so bad' path got them removed sooner rather than later.

As Apple built more and more of their own SoC , their expectation shift wasn't entirely arbitrary or ungrounded technically.


I don't think the MP 2013 was a Cube re-invention. The Cube didn't push performance at all. The higher end CPU at that era when into the PowerMac above it. It was a 'appeal to Steve's nostalgia' play though.
1. 2. I insinuated it helped kill it sooner.
 
"That steady cadence of upgrades continued through 2012, a sharp contrast to the long droughts that would define the machine's later years."

The Mac Pro died when Steve died. It was always supposed to be an attainable halo product. Then Tim Cook's Apple removed the attainable element and mistook what the machine represented.

Sad ending to the Mac Pro story.

the 2012 was a re-warmed 2010 which was just a firmware tweak of a 2009. ( intel sever socket and I/O chips went two cycles so 2009-2010 would be expected. Extending into 2012 would not. )
In early 2013, the 2012 was beeping banned in the EU because it failed to meet requirements for sale set up in the 2007-8 era. The 2012 version was not a responsive, evolutionary product. In fact, Apple slapped a 'new' tag on it on the online marketing page and someone filed a FTC complaint about it not really being 'new' and Apple pulled the 'new' icon off of it in a couple of weeks after launch.

Apple operates on 3-4 year planning windows. Steve Jobs was alive and on paper in charge when planning for 2012 when into the 'do almost nothing' stage.

Apple needed a re-warmed system in 2012 because the rest of the higher end Intel workstation market was moving onto The E5-1600 v1 series that year. Apple entirely missed the v1 series and only joined at v2. If Apple was prepping in 2010 for a E5 1600 v1 system that could have been done. They did not.

Steve Jobs was very much looped into Apple making Thunderbolt a Mac ecosystem focus. apple (and Jobs) stripped Lightpeak of fiber so it could be a 'one port wonder' connection that did 'everything'. All Macs have thunderbolt is design constraint set up in the Jobs era. Apple started rolling out Thunderbolt products in 2011 ... so very likely planned in 2008-9 timeframe before Jobs was on deathbed.

Apple growing deepening into doing more with their own SoC/chips. Steve Jobs started that too.

iMacs getting desktop processors from mobile processors... Steve Jobs planning era also. Stuffing more performancei into smaller than classic alternatives was a general direction that Jobs focused on.
 
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The Apple Silicon MP could have been modular, like using the size of the chassis to add extra Apple Silicon CPU/GPU modules, and having the ability to upgrade to newer generation modules.

The "modules" would pragmatically need to be most of what it means to be a Mac. it would essentially be a Mzc on a card. That might be useful in allowing those cards to be put into other boxes (e.g., Windows workstation with a Mac on a card) .

But that really isn't going to be in the same equivalence class as what Mac Pro was classically. Folks like to hand wave at the 2009 baseline design that had a CPU daughter card. That card contained CPU + RAM but the I/O southbridge was all on the mainboard. The M-series Soc 'module' is going to suck that soutbrige off the mainboard. The secure enclave in the Soc pragmatically is going to scok the defaault boot drive off the a miainboard connetion also. The Thunderbolt... provisioned directly from the SoC so very likely on the card edge. (e.g., Thunderbolt 4 PHYS chips are not going to work for Thunderbolt 5 controller output. New evolutionary TB ... new PHY chips also. )

The NAND submodule of the SSD probably would be modular, but really only 1/2 of the whole SSD. The SSD controller is still inside the SoC. That SSD controller design is tied to a certain generation of NAND chips. It isn't future proof for all NAND updates of the future. New SSDs get new controllers and firmware to match the next gen capabilities.

Back in 2006-2012 era did Apple design the 2009 board to fit in a 2006 box? Not really.

Once the CPU+GPU+RAM+ (most) video out ports are all attached to this modular card, that card isn't going to be inexpensive. Most of the folks hyperfocused on modularity are principally concerned about price. Modularity is a path to commodity prices.


Pragmatically getting into a zone where just a box that is enclosing the Mac. So not particularly different from from


If mostly only saving the power supply and the case what percentage of that of the overall system cost so something like the Mac Studio Max system? The other larger percentage would be closer to the "Module cost".



The way they designed it was completely stupid with just pci-e slots that could accept a limited number of compatible cards.

Outside of the GPU card class what kinds of cards did not work that already worked on a MP 2019 ?

The Sonnet Tech Specs on compatible cards is about 50+ cards of various types. (listed on a PDF file linked to the following)


(simple cards that sonnet cards do not have differentiation on , e.g. 1-2 M.2 slot storage cards, are not exhaustively covered in this list. so it isn't just 50. The list is more about the range of categories of transition activity than cards with different vendor names slapped on top) . There are a number of cards that didn't make transition to M-series drivers , but typically there is a high correlation there with 'old' and out of active support also. [ And what is not on the list is how many have made transition to DriverKet from legacy kext. Again that should be as much a Intel issue as much as a Apple Silicon one. Apple has deprecated that older option. ]

There are also a fair amount of cards which don't work on macOS period ( regardless of CPU opcode implementation). The MP 2023 did not change that. Apple fiddling with the SoC design isn't going to attach folks who didn't even like it when it looked like Intel's config. There are impediments that the macOS market size and not the computer implementation details.

All that said there is a faction who will insist that the GPU category is t he only one that counts. Spinning that as 'limited number' rather myopic though. In total aggregate there is a larger number of cards across the other categories. The 'limited' is also myopic in terms of software. The rest of the Mac line up has completely dumped dGPUs. Software is most likely going to be written to the overwhelming GPU configurations that Apple directly supports. In the Mac Pro intel era how many software packages 100% exclusively only ran on mac Pros.
Commercial software tends to be developed from the more commonality requirements so that have a large enough target market so that can reasonable expect a return on investment. Too small of pool... more likely not to invest

( loop back to missing drivers for highly active cards on list linked above. If ask those companies most likely will get answers of too small a target market. don't want to do it. )

Where Apple failed is that they didn't seriously attempt to answer this questions when they introducted the mac Pro. There were no list of forward looking, 'new technology' cards listed. (e.g., New 100-200GbE card with new native macoS RDMA support , new bandwidth levels crossed by new multiple PCI-e 4 m.2 drive card , etc. ) . Instead Apple made reference to legacy , high sunk cost cards and kind of moved along.
 
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