Mac Pro update is taking so long becuase...

[Chilla Frilla]

Odds are it would have handles.

What do you think about all this hype about the 2010 mac pro?? Do you think one will come out? I am putting 100 dollars up on a bet that we won't see an update for a long time, possibly in the NEAR future.

Honestly, it's VERY hard to tell right now because there has been nothing (news) at all the past few months.

Apple is either going to skip it completely and wait until the next architecture or they'll update it this Tuesday the 20th, which is all I'm hoping for. Then again, we've all hoped for something the past 7 months and haven't seen anything new regarding the Mac Pro.

I just keep thinking Apple has considered the 980x Xeon variant due to the major increases in performance we've seen from benchmarks compared to Quad Core models. That's what leads me to believe they still might update it. Only time will tell what they will do.

 

[deconstruct60]

I just keep thinking Apple has considered the 980x Xeon variant due to the major increases in performance we've seen from benchmarks compared to Quad Core models. That's what leads me to believe they still might update it. Only time will tell what they will do.

The 980x doesn't work because it is justs one offering. They need 3 : base , better, best with it topping out at 3.3. Going to i7 extreme doesn't help because there aren't 3 variants of the same basic technology available there either. Core i only solves the problem if you want to use older or even more crippled versions. That is it.

Not only has intel not shipped 3620 and 3640 they haven't shipped i7 variants of them either. There are rumors there will be a hard clocked, slightly slower, marginally cheaper non extereme version of 980x version coming (970 ? ) but it hasn't hit the streets yet. Intel is dribbling out the rest of the Westmere class CPUs relatively slowly. If they can't hit the $2,400 entry level price point for a Mac Pro they aren't going to ship.

... past 7 moths haven't seen anything new.

Eh? Intel didn't even announce and ship the Westmere updates (i.e. 56xx , 3600 , and the lone 890x ) that are available till March. Anyone who was expecting anything before then was in fantasy land.

 

[deconstruct60]

I've not seen any recent information of a delay for LP, so the parts are due out at the end of this year. Which means systems won't ship until next year (2011). 2012 would only become realistic if there's a significant delay in the parts becoming available to vendors (say Q3 or Q4 2011 before LP parts ship; basically a year behind).

Your forgetting that the new chip parts have to catch the product design cycle. Next years product development are already in motion now. If the parts don't come and look extremely stable yesterday, they aren't going to make the cut.

Same thing happened for USB 3.0. They parts were out about year before showed up in any real volume. Don't see how light peak is going to be any different. It too isn't going to be purely a hardware addition that you plug in and it magically works just with solely new hardware.

 

[rhett7660]

I don't think the Mac Pro or the iMac will be discontinued or not updated. Steve has already said they are like "trucks" and you still need them to do the heavy lifting.

I just think we will have longer spans of no updates to them.

 

[nanofrog]

True. The octo would be good for ~3300$ segment as W3680 will likely settle for ~3700$. However, IF there will be a Xeon version (W3660?) of the rumored i7-970 (six core @3.2GHz) for $800ish, that would solve the octo issue as it provides the exact same 19.2GHz (again, using my inaccurate calcs ) and would likely go for ~3400$ in Mac Pro. I should have included this in my ealier posts already but I forgot, as usual

I'd be utterly shocked if they suddenly swap out for Enthusiast Desktop parts (i7 LGA1366, no matter the core count). The cost is the same between those and the SP Xeons, so any shortcomings in part range exists in both lines (ECC is the distinguishing feature). It would also mean that Apple would then have to carry non-ECC memory as well, reducing their buying power (quantity purchases), potentially increasing their parts costs and adding complexity to the assembly process (now they have to make sure the correct memory is installed).

As per a W3660, I've not seen or heard anything, and expect we'd have by now (W3690 @ 3.43GHz is scheduled, but even later).

They need 3 : base , better, best with it topping out at 3.3.

Exactly. To keep 3 models in the SP systems, they either have to wait on the W3620 and W3640, or use existing W35xx parts in the lower systems (i.e. W3530 @ 2.8GHz, and W3550 @ 3.06GHz) for the base and mid-level systems. The W35xx parts will allow the existing MSRP's to remain without a loss in margin.

We'll have to wait and see, but I'm not sure how much more buyers would be willing to take in terms of price increases, even if they're getting more system.

Your forgetting that the new chip parts have to catch the product design cycle. Next years product development are already in motion now. If the parts don't come and look extremely stable yesterday, they aren't going to make the cut.

To me, this was implied. If a part's not ready (have to carry on with an existing part, as vapor doesn't cut it ), or deemed unsuitable, it's skipped. Even if it means carrying on a product with older parts (i.e. C2D and a discrete GPU used in laptops by Apple).

Same thing happened for USB 3.0. They parts were out about year before showed up in any real volume. Don't see how light peak is going to be any different. It too isn't going to be purely a hardware addition that you plug in and it magically works just with solely new hardware.

The earlier USB 3.0 chips had issues, such as high power consumption. There's still bandwidth issues with the PCIe lane configuration IIRC (not enough lanes to reach full band), but I expect will be corrected in the next generation.

As per LP, there's definitely a software side to the equation, not to mention any bridge devices that might be needed (depending on what the user wants to connect via LP).

 

[Chilla Frilla]

The 980x doesn't work because it is justs one offering. They need 3 : base , better, best with it topping out at 3.3. Going to i7 extreme doesn't help because there aren't 3 variants of the same basic technology available there either. Core i only solves the problem if you want to use older or even more crippled versions. That is it.

Not only has intel not shipped 3620 and 3640 they haven't shipped i7 variants of them either. There are rumors there will be a hard clocked, slightly slower, marginally cheaper non extereme version of 980x version coming (970 ? ) but it hasn't hit the streets yet. Intel is dribbling out the rest of the Westmere class CPUs relatively slowly. If they can't hit the $2,400 entry level price point for a Mac Pro they aren't going to ship.









Eh? Intel didn't even announce and ship the Westmere updates (i.e. 56xx , 3600 , and the lone 890x ) that are available till March. Anyone who was expecting anything before then was in fantasy land.

I meant anything new regarding the Mac Pro.


What Apple can always do is keep the same 4 and 8 core variations out right now and just add 6 and 12 core options under the processor upgrade section when you choose to configure one. For example it could be:

One 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon (Selected as Base Model)
One 3.33GHz Six-Core Intel Xeon [Add $800.00]

 

[Roman23]

Who wants to assist in developing a efi flash utility?

I have high hopes that this can be accomplished, but under low key.. think of the possibility of flashing the efi firmware over to the 2009?? No need for a 2010 mac pro as one can go and get a B1 stepping processor and just install it. This is what Apple should really give to us, and not make us get a whole new box.. the way I see it, this is a minor upgrade. Its not like the Penryn to Nehalem - no.. its more like: Nehalem to Nehalem extreme.. u get my point?!

Westmere EP uses B1 steppings while Gainestown uses D0 steppings so it would require a BIOS update which does not exist. Anyway, you would be paying almost 700$ for 130MHz

 

[Roman23]

Wait a min.. w3680 ..

Is this the upgrade from the w3580? It makes very good sense that this would be the upgrade from the w3580 as I have a hunch the w3680 is a single socket processor just like mine.

But W3680 would be faster than dual E5620 machine, even if all cores of both could be utilized (if my equation above is used though it's not that accurate and I'm too lazy to look at some actual benchmarks (no HT or Turbo)). Dual E5630 would already be more expensive than W3680 machine and would only provide 1GHz more than W3680 (again, using my equation above).

Knowing Apple, they would just say "Well, there is 12-core for you, it's suits you the best!" if you needed speed Mac Pro hasn't got much love lately so I somehow doubt Apple would start offering huge range of CPUs for Mac Pro, Apple likes to keep things simple, thus I'm sticking with 6-core + 12-core guess

1999$ quad core Mac Pro would be very cool and I of course hope Apple would offer as many options as possible, I just don't believe on it

 

[Hellhammer]

Is this the upgrade from the w3580? It makes very good sense that this would be the upgrade from the w3580 as I have a hunch the w3680 is a single socket processor just like mine.

Yeah it is. It's the same as i7 980X but with ECC support.

 

[Roman23]

As I said..

I really think these processors should be treated as drop in replacements for what we have now, and not the significant overhaul of a new box at all.. I really think this after looking at the specs and seeing that these chips ALL fit our 2009 sockets perfectly..

Try putting in a Harpertown cpu inside a clovertown mac pro or woodcrest? You see what I am getting at?

Thats why I don't really see this as a significant overhaul, but rather just upgrade chips for our existing mac pros - once the microcode has been flashed to the 2009 that is.. and for all I know, my bootrom has a B08 at the end of it.. and who knows. Possibly, I might be able to already use B1 stepping.. idk..

Yeah it is. It's the same as i7 980X but with ECC support.

 

[Hellhammer]

I really think these processors should be treated as drop in replacements for what we have now, and not the significant overhaul of a new box at all.. I really think this after looking at the specs and seeing that these chips ALL fit our 2009 sockets perfectly..

Try putting in a Harpertown cpu inside a clovertown mac pro or woodcrest? You see what I am getting at?

Thats why I don't really see this as a significant overhaul, but rather just upgrade chips for our existing mac pros - once the microcode has been flashed to the 2009 that is.. and for all I know, my bootrom has a B08 at the end of it.. and who knows. Possibly, I might be able to already use B1 stepping.. idk..

Harpertown was nothing more but a die shrink from 65nm to 45nm and provided quad core as standard. That situation is pretty similar to this, Westmere is just a die shrink of Nehalem, from 45nm to 32nm. Harpertown, Clovertown and Woodcrest all used LGA 771, just like Westmere and Nehalem use LGA 1366.

It's unlikely that this will be more than just a spec bump but has any Mac Pro update been more? Yeah, we did get new internal design along with previous update but that's pretty much it. A new design ain't needed.

We are getting what we want, faster computer for same $ and more options. Everything else we get is extra. Overhaul isn't needed and what would it bring? The case is fine, the internal design is fine, there isn't anything major to overhaul.

We don't know is it possible to flash the EFI to support B1 steppings, it hasn't been done before as far as I know. Even if it was, most people would just buy the new one anyway if they are in market for one as it ends up costing the same as buying '09 system and buying CPU(s) for that. EFI flashing isn't something that everyone does and it's unlikely that it will find its way to news and become popular, already due the fact that a new CPU is nearly a grand.

 

[Roman23]

so, what are your real thoughts on this then?

Do you think its going to happen, or not? So far we have no valid proof or any substantial evidence that a 2010 mac pro is going to come out.. and as you said, nothing more than a die shrink - I've thought about this all along.. but you have to admit that these would make excellent drop in replacements for our current 09 systems.

As for efi flashing? If you have the brain and the knowledge - ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. I am sure someone will come up with it.. and for all I know I may already have the proper stepping because my bootrom and firmware is different than everyone elses.. B08 could be that difference.. IDK and right now I couldn't afford the lowest of the line w36xx series chip.

What ever happened to the days of being a processor and upgrading your motherboard? I know Intel has always been expensive compared to AMD, Cyrix etc... I remember vivdly my AMD K6-2 was like 150 dollars back then and the intel equivalent was like 250.00..

And today processors are exceeding the cost of a whole system - doesn't make sense at all.. although, you have to admit I did get a great deal on the w3580 for under 600 dollars..

Harpertown was nothing more but a die shrink from 65nm to 45nm and provided quad core as standard. That situation is pretty similar to this, Westmere is just a die shrink of Nehalem, from 45nm to 32nm. Harpertown, Clovertown and Woodcrest all used LGA 771, just like Westmere and Nehalem use LGA 1366.

It's unlikely that this will be more than just a spec bump but has any Mac Pro update been more? Yeah, we did get new internal design along with previous update but that's pretty much it. A new design ain't needed.

We are getting what we want, faster computer for same $ and more options. Everything else we get is extra. Overhaul isn't needed and what would it bring? The case is fine, the internal design is fine, there isn't anything major to overhaul.

We don't know is it possible to flash the EFI to support B1 steppings, it hasn't been done before as far as I know. Even if it was, most people would just buy the new one anyway if they are in market for one as it ends up costing the same as buying '09 system and buying CPU(s) for that. EFI flashing isn't something that everyone does and it's unlikely that it will find its way to news and become popular, already due the fact that a new CPU is nearly a grand.

 

[Hellhammer]

Do you think its going to happen, or not? So far we have no valid proof or any substantial evidence that a 2010 mac pro is going to come out.. and as you said, nothing more than a die shrink - I've thought about this all along.. but you have to admit that these would make excellent drop in replacements for our current 09 systems.

We rarely have any valid proofs of an update but we still see them several times a year. For example, there was not even a single piece of news about new Mini before it was true. Sandy Bridge is way too long wait so if Apple wants to keep Mac Pro alive, they will update it soon. Low-end 2010 Mac Pro is already going to be ~50% faster because it's 6-core at same clock speed as current quad is. Apple might be waiting for more W36xx chips to come as W3680 is too expensive for low-end.

As for efi flashing? If you have the brain and the knowledge - ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. I am sure someone will come up with it.. and for all I know I may already have the proper stepping because my bootrom and firmware is different than everyone elses.. B08 could be that difference.. IDK and right now I couldn't afford the lowest of the line w36xx series chip.

Of course it is but it may not be that simple and you will likely need access for both, 2009 and 2010 Mac Pro. It's not impossible but it might be too much work to be worth it. You could just sell you current for around ~1900$ and put less than 1000$ towards new one. That's couple hundreds more than the cheapest W36xx would be.

Unless you have hacked your FW already, you have the same. As far as I can tell, your CPU uses the same D0 steppings as the CPUs Apple offers. I'm not sure has anyone tried it as the cheapest option is 999$ W3680.

And today processors are exceeding the cost of a whole system - doesn't make sense at all.. although, you have to admit I did get a great deal on the w3580 for under 600 dollars..

High-end CPUs have and will always be expensive. You can grab a quad core for less than 100$ nowadays (Phenom x2 and then enable the two extra cores) and mainstream quads go for around 200 bucks. After a year or so, six-core goes for the same $ and then 8-core goes for the same $... etc.

 

[Roman23]

So, as for the mac pro... do you see Apple coming out with it?

I know this is a general question.. but in from what you have seen so far as being nothing but empty air(rumors) with no evidence or proof, do you honestly think they will come out with the 2010 or is Apple really changed and steve has changed to the point that the iphone and itoys are more important to Apple?

I really do so a sharp shift in apple lately.. they are more consumer now then pro, and it seems that although they will continue to update the pro software, they might not do so with the hardware(just my opinion).

As for my bootrom firmware? What is yours? I still think my B08 revision might already have the B1 capability though.. as you said, one of us will have to get a low end w36xx series chip and try it out.

We rarely have any valid proofs of an update but we still see them several times a year. For example, there was not even a single piece of news about new Mini before it was true. Sandy Bridge is way too long wait so if Apple wants to keep Mac Pro alive, they will update it soon. Low-end 2010 Mac Pro is already going to be ~50% faster because it's 6-core at same clock speed as current quad is. Apple might be waiting for more W36xx chips to come as W3680 is too expensive for low-end.



Of course it is but it may not be that simple and you will likely need access for both, 2009 and 2010 Mac Pro. It's not impossible but it might be too much work to be worth it. You could just sell you current for around ~1900$ and put less than 1000$ towards new one. That's couple hundreds more than the cheapest W36xx would be.

Unless you have hacked your FW already, you have the same. As far as I can tell, your CPU uses the same D0 steppings as the CPUs Apple offers. I'm not sure has anyone tried it as the cheapest option is 999$ W3680.



High-end CPUs have and will always be expensive. You can grab a quad core for less than 100$ nowadays (Phenom x2 and then enable the two extra cores) and mainstream quads go for around 200 bucks. After a year or so, six-core goes for the same $ and then 8-core goes for the same $... etc.

 

[Roman23]

Oh, one more thing..

Is Apple the only company that does this crap by keeping their customers in the dark about updates and stuff? In the PC world, this seems to be non-existant though.

We rarely have any valid proofs of an update but we still see them several times a year. For example, there was not even a single piece of news about new Mini before it was true. Sandy Bridge is way too long wait so if Apple wants to keep Mac Pro alive, they will update it soon. Low-end 2010 Mac Pro is already going to be ~50% faster because it's 6-core at same clock speed as current quad is. Apple might be waiting for more W36xx chips to come as W3680 is too expensive for low-end.



Of course it is but it may not be that simple and you will likely need access for both, 2009 and 2010 Mac Pro. It's not impossible but it might be too much work to be worth it. You could just sell you current for around ~1900$ and put less than 1000$ towards new one. That's couple hundreds more than the cheapest W36xx would be.

Unless you have hacked your FW already, you have the same. As far as I can tell, your CPU uses the same D0 steppings as the CPUs Apple offers. I'm not sure has anyone tried it as the cheapest option is 999$ W3680.



High-end CPUs have and will always be expensive. You can grab a quad core for less than 100$ nowadays (Phenom x2 and then enable the two extra cores) and mainstream quads go for around 200 bucks. After a year or so, six-core goes for the same $ and then 8-core goes for the same $... etc.

 

[Hellhammer]

I know this is a general question.. but in from what you have seen so far as being nothing but empty air(rumors) with no evidence or proof, do you honestly think they will come out with the 2010 or is Apple really changed and steve has changed to the point that the iphone and itoys are more important to Apple?

I doubt it. Mini got some love a week after iPhone 4 announcement. We have seen at least one reliable rumor of new Mac Pro, that was the ATI 5870 and GTX 480 rumor.

As for my bootrom firmware? What is yours? I still think my B08 revision might already have the B1 capability though.. as you said, one of us will have to get a low end w36xx series chip and try it out.

What you mean by B08? I don't even have a Mac Pro but as I said, as far as I can tell your CPU uses D0 steppings

Is Apple the only company that does this crap by keeping their customers in the dark about updates and stuff? In the PC world, this seems to be non-existant though.

This does exist in PC world as well but PC companies release new models much often than Apple does and everytime something new comes, every manufacturer puts it in their products. For example, Intel, NVidia and AMD are quite bitchy about their upcoming products. They do tell some details about the technology etc but don't talk about different models or details we are interested in, such as clock speeds, prices, TDPs etc...

Apple is famous of its system. Other companies are not able to do such things as it requires the smallest possible amount of people that can have access for future plans. It's also the fun thing about Apple, you never know what to see