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Rumors

Let's all just remember that these are all rumors. There's multiple reasons why they could be given to MacB in good faith and still be wrong. I'm not sure exactly how these rumor sites work, but I suspect that they work similarly to the real world and most rumors are spread from friend to friend. I doubt if the actual developers and engineers are submitting these rumors directly to these websties. There are probably a few, and those I suspect know some of the people associated with the websites. Otherwise I suspect that rumors are submitted by people in the know but not nessisarily the ones generating the data. For example, when I worked at Adobe as lowly TS, I would talk to my QA friends to find out the latest scuttlebutt on our products. Scuttlebutt that they were getting from various developers they would talk to. Those developers might not even be working on the projects that were talked about. So, while in that position, I would say I was a "respectable source" and knew pretty much what was going on in the company and their roadmap for the next six months, but as you can see, there's already a game of "telephone" going on. Developer tells developers tells QA tells TS tells other people. Could be that that info just simiply isn't that good to begin with. It's not meant for release to the public, so it's not been checked with a fine toothed comb. Benchmarks taken straight from the head engineer's desk may be nothing more than bits and peices thrown together willy nilly for his or somebody else's entertainment. Next, you have the simple fact that the developers don't know what is going to happen with a product 6 months down the line. Good info this week may be compeltly wrong next week depending on decisions made by Marketing or Management. Features added, features killed, builds abandoned. Reading a book on Apple design, there were several working prototypes that were built yet never saw the light of day. You may hear rumors about such devices, and it'd be good information, but you'd never know it until you read a book on Apple history ten years later because it gets killed in development. Keeping up with rumors even when inside a company is constant work because the situation is changing from day to day. Then there is always the possibility of dis-information. The source is seeding his rumors with false info, or changing things so he isn't suspect or to keep his employers from getting upset. Not to mention that the comapny itself may have controlled leaks to spread dis/information. Just like artists releasing fake tracks onto Napster, if rumor sites became too reliable, companies could start releasing false informaiton from undeniably good sources just to keep peopele guessing and their secrets, secret. So, there is never going to be a 100% reliable rumor site.

What's this mean to us. Are we going to stop going to a site because somebody posts some wrong info? Most of us probably aren't betting lots of money on what is posted here and if they were, it'd probably be illegal. I suspect that most are reading these for entertainment, perhaps out of profesional curiosity, but still just as a way to pass the time. If a site just starts posting (non-entertaining) wild made up rumors, yes, we'd probably stop going to it. If one site has a better reputation than another site, we may spend more time there over the other, or at least repeat what it has to say more. Still, rumor sites are rumors sites and they're not going to be reliable, they're not going to always have the right information, and anybody who expects them too or gets mad because they aren't, is just in the wrong place to begin with.
 
When MacB. showed leaked pictures of the new power macs i heard there where insulted and flamed aswell, these rumors ending up being true.

A few months ago, someone posted leaked pictures from an intel meeting where steves jobs was presenting. There where tons of posts by "supposed photoshop experts", that claimed without a doubt this pictures where fake, and flaimed the crap out of the poster. Only a few days latter it was confirmed that the pics were real and steve jobs was at the intel meeting. No apologies where made the post turned silent.

I read an article on online communication, and its flaws. Without people needing to actually o interact with a human, and realize the consequences of there words, people are apt to be more cruel, because they know they can get away with it.

I find it acceptable, it say you do not believe rumors, and put forth your arguements of why, and trying to convince others it is false.

But I find it atrocious, that we flame them in submission. Are these peoples who claim they are lairs, frauds, full of horsesh*t, and other belittling comments, planning to come back and apologize if the rumor becomes true? or are they going to go on posting like it never happened.

Because we are not accountable for our behaviour online, does that make it acceptable, to flame and insult at will?
How many will act like this in real life
 
wow shill a bit...

I honestly find it strange that people can't accept the 'copy & paste' results for the P4/G4 in the tests. This is not a test carried out by an independent hardware tester. Most likely they were thrown in just to give a quick comparisson so that we would get an idea of whats going on speedwise. I prefer seeing them there to have something to compare with...cuz for me the numbers on just the 970 would tell me nothing. I dont follow test enough to know.

So, sure they are not scientific but they give us an idea. I WANT to believe also hehe, and I am greatfull to MB for the 'hope' it gives for the future. It also adds a heated debate on various topics which is also very nice.

Bryce 6...erm...i have no comment on that but if they say so I will just have to take their word for it...IF you are going to presume that people lie on purpose on sites like these then what is the point of reading them. All RUMOURS here have exactly that problem not just this one. It like - Take it or Leave it...

Bring on the posts...
 
rumours again:

To the person that pointed out that MB got flamed for the Quicksilver pics and pics of Jobs at an Intel-Meeting which turned out to be right.

Just to make this clear: I doubted neither, cause the former looked damn real to me (again: so did the iWalk though!) and in the second case i happen to know someone who personally saw him there. Just like Intel's Otellini at MacWorld the other way around!

Point is: These are not "story-rumours", these are supposedly "hard facts" in the form of Bargraphs and numbers. Unfortunately, you can debunk numbers just by looking at them (and knowing a few things about technical matters!). So that's the crux with the MB-Power970-"Benchmarks": People can debunk them without knowing anything more than the simple numbers presented! Why? a) cause they're the exact same as Barefeats, b) C4D-SMP-Factor amazingly low, c) Dual-Performance where there should be none in Photoshop-SP- and Bryce-Tests, d) no trace or announcement whatsoever of Bryce 6!

So believe me: While i don't doubt the existance of the P970, very likely even within Apple-labs - THESE Benchmark-results are bogus! They can not be true, and it's not a matter of "suspicions", merely a matter of cold hard facts! They presented the cold hard facts (and announced it with much ballyhoo before, keep that in mind!), so they should be ready to eat them! Which they don't, they prefer to moan and whine and blame the "language barrier"...

If you play with fire (which they seem to gladly do ever since they inofficially seemed to have proclaimed themselves the great P970-news-source a few months ago!) you should be ready to get burnt. It's really simple, you know?...
 
Suggestion to Arn

I don't know if this is the best place to post this, but it's at least relavent.

I think a very neat feature that could be added to MacRumors would be a rumor site tracker. Not unlike the buyers guide, it would keep track of the recent history of a few of the major rumor sites, including mac rumors itself. This addition would not only be a neato place to keep up with long term rumors, but it would also provide a place to discuss rumors that turned out to be false or only partially true. Many of these rumors are no longer on the front pages of the various sites by the time they get disproven so they are no longer discussed. Then when rumors like this one show up and nobody's sure how reliable MB is, there would be an easy place for them to check and judge for themselves.

Some sites to include:
MacRumors (of course - full disclosure)
MacOSRumors
Think Secret
MacBidoulle(sp?)
apple-x-net
Spymac (I guess)
MacWhispers
LoopRumors
Naked Mole Rat (would involve some interpretation)


For each site show:
Last 10? predictions
status of each prediction (true, false, pending. etc)


I'm not sure how the forums would link up to all this, but you can probably figure something out.
I was just searching the archives of macwhispers and think secret and TS has completely nailed a few things lately (eMacs, iPods) while MW got the usb/fw cable right, got a lot of other things wrong and has quite a few rumors still outstanding (30" display, aluminum front on powermacs). It was fun to search around and check up on this stuff, but it would be cooler if it was all on one site.







Just an idea.
 
Originally posted by Snowy_River
I positted these reasons as a plausible reason for these benchmarks appearing as they did.

Which is exactly why the "source" made the same argument - because, as unlikely a scenario as it, it is the only possible one that could explain the massive anomalies in the benchmarks. In fact, for all we know, s/he perused the MacRumors forums for ideas on how to justify these inconsistencies!

I'm still not going to say 'yea' or 'nay' about these rumors. I hope they're right, but I still have no real way to judge them. I'll just wait and see.

Look, I honestly don't mean to offend you, but if you are thinking that these are real, you are just going to be disappointed.

It is not true that we don't have a way to judge them. We do have a way to judge them: the scientific method. That is to say, we can compare the "data" that we observe (i.e. the benchmarks) to a priori facts that we know to be true. If the data is not consistent with the facts, then either the data is fabricated or the facts are wrong. If we can rule out the possibility that our a prior knowledge is incorrect, then we know that the data must be fabricated. Let me demonstrate:

Here are the main inconsistencies in these benchmarks:

(1) The G4/P4 benchmarks are clearly stolen from BareFeats. The only way that these benchmarks could then be valid is if the same tests were independently run on the 970.
FACT: Particularly for Photoshop, BareFeats uses a specialized action file that is not available to the public for download on the website. Without this file, it would be impossible for the tester to replicate the BareFeats tests.

(2) The Bryce 5 benchmark shows a more than 2x increase in going from SP 970 to DP 970.
FACT: Bryce 5 is not multithreaded. Therefore, the DP 970 will not display an increase of that magnitude over the SP 970 in Bryce 5.

(3) The Photoshop benchmark shows a more than 2x increase in going from the SP 970 to the DP 970.
FACT: The Photoshop benchmark is the BareFeats "Photoshop SP" benchmark, i.e. it only includes actions which do not take advantage of multiple processors. Therefore, the DP 970 will not display an increase of that magnitude over the SP 970 in this benchmark.

How can we reconcile these inconsistencies?

For (1), you have suggested that the copying was intentional and legitimate. But you cannot explain how the tester got ahold of the Photoshop SP action file from BareFeats. I have e-mailed Robert Morgan, who runs the BareFeats site, about these benchmarks, and in his reply he was genuinely surprised that someone had copied his benchmarks. If the tester had e-mailed Rob to ask him for his Photoshop test file, then none of this would come as much of a surprise. So we are to believe that somehow the tester got ahold of Rob's test file w/o Rob being aware of it. This seems unlikely. Another possibility is that Rob gets so many requests for the test file that he views giving it out as routine. Possible, but far from certain.

For (2), you (and the tester) have suggested that an undisclosed version of Bryce that supports SMP exists, and that was used for testing. This seems highly improbable. Nobody seems to know about it or be able to find it, and Corel doesn't appear to be very committed to developing Bryce anyway. Furthermore, it would be illogical for the tester to choose this application for testing when he knows that the G4/P4 benchmarks were done using Bryce 5. Why would he purposely choose to use a different application so that the benchmarks are not comparable between G4 and 970 when the same application, Bryce 5, is readily available for testing? Why would he label the graph as "Bryce 5"? And it wouldn't even cost him anything to get Bryce 5 because he was just using Hotline anyway (according to his update). So either he is lying about the benchmarks, or he is an entirely incompetent benchmarker, because he doesn't understand that you want to try to run the same tests on different machines (not different tests on different machines), and his results are completely worthless.

For (3), you have no explanation. The only possible explanation we could come up with is the same one offered for (2), i.e. there is a secret version of Photoshop 8 circulating in which EVERY task is now multithreaded. Unfortunately, this would be equivalent to appealing to the tooth fairy as an explanation, because at this point many of the tasks in Photoshop which are not MP or Altivec aware are that way because the underlying algorithm inherently cannot be parrallelized. In other words, even if Adobe WANTED to make this mythical version of Photoshop in which all commands took full advantage of both processors, they COULDN'T. So this explanation holds no water.

At the end of the day, therefore, the data is not consistent with the facts that we know to be true. Given that these facts are known beyond a reasonable doubt, we must reject the data. There is no other logically consistent choice.

The problem that you are having is that you refuse to accept the conclusion that the data is falsified. Hence you are forced to come up with ever more convoluted stories with which to explain the glaring inconsistencies in these benchmarks. I will be interested, for example, to see how you explain the Photoshop benchmark.

I understand that you are very attached to these benchmarks and that you want to believe the MacBd source has been telling the truth. We all want to believe it, myself included. However, in this case, the only reasonable conclusion is that the benchmarks are false. And trust me, that is okay. The 970 will come one day. There will be real benchmarks one day. And they will probably be quite impressive (I certainly hope so). But the 970 is not coming tomorrow, and these are not real benchmarks. You just need to let them go, or else you are going to be disappointed. But it will be okay. Trust me. Just try saying to yourself, "These benchmarks are false, but that is okay. We will not be fooled by them, and we will wait for real ones, or at least ones that could plausibly be true. It will be fine." =)
 
C4D speeds

Originally posted by Kai
Also notice the amazingly low SMP-Factor of 1.38 (compared to a supposedly 400MHz SLOWER Power970, mind you!) in Cinema: P970 = Great SMP-Performer, wasn't that their claim? That's interesting, cause i have never seen a SMP-factor so low in C4D, not even with a Dual-Pentium1 (which *really* sucked cause of their shared L2-Cache!), especially not compared to a slower clocked Single-machine!

This was actually explained by a person from Maxon support. There is a set-up period before the actual render takes place, and the lenght of this period (may be around 10 secs or so) is not cut by using multiple processors. In a render which happend in less than 30 seconds, thats going to be skewing the results in a major way.
 
Originally posted by mactastic
Rumors should be like baseball. If you get things right 4 times out of 10 you are a god.

Damn straight.

Well said, my friend.
 
Re: Negative feedback

Originally posted by tazznb
If this proves to be true I hope all the naysayers (French HATERS) are happy since they are no longer devulging information for all of us to enjoy.:eek:
I'm sorry, but if the French can disagree with the American govornment without being American "HATERS" then we can disbelieve their rumor sites without being French "HATERS".

Sheesh, haven't we exhausted this subject?

I'm sorry they got their feelings so hurt over the disbelief following such outrageous numbers. No one told them they should stop. Sounded a little snippy if you ask me.
 
Originally posted by mactastic
Rumors should be like baseball. If you get things right 4 times out of 10 you are a god.
There's only one position is sports where a 30% success rate is good. Sadly for MacB, I don't watch that sport.

I like the presentation of rumors on this site, personally. If you're going to post something as fact, then you'd better be prepared to be burned. If you don't have the backup to do this, then post the rumor as unsubstantiated.

Easy, right?

You know what disturbs me is the fact that rumor sites are able to occasionally get their hands on inside info. What kind of corporate espionage do you suppose Microsoft is capable of?? :eek:
 
Re: Good to know!...

Originally posted by Kai
Oh, and here's another thing that wasn't spotted yet as it seems: The Photoshop-Results!
They're from the SP-Bench-Suite on Barefeats (check the Numbers!), a suite that ONLY uses Single-CPU filters. Oh my, why is the Dual P970 more than twice as fast as the Single (sorry: "Mono"!) P970 in this then?

Not to toot my own horn, but I mentioned that yesterday in the first thread. The problem was, I guess I was drowned out by the people arguing about the existance of a Bryce 6 beta and attacks on the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys. :D

The numbers are too high to be the MP actions results (unless we assume the PowerPC 970 provides almost no speed improvement) and don't square with the SP actions results. If there is a special version of Photoshop that makes these filters MP-aware, then new numbers for the current G4 and P4 need to be posted.

For me, even if the numbers came from real hardware running real benchmarks, the fact that they require beta software to run means the comparison to the BareFeats numbers is worthless. Who knows how much faster the existing Macs run the new software?
 
Originally posted by Sun Baked
So they're saying the leak was from inside Apple, now that would definitely be a huge NDA violation... oh wait, it has Apple's blessing. :rolleyes:

Plus this just makes it look like they are trying to dig themselves out of a hole... ooops the numbers we said were Bryce 5 are actually a beta of 6.

I recall downloading a beta of photoshop of osx a looong time ago and although it was in fact photoshop 7...the splash screen and stuff said photoshop 6 (it ran in X though). So, maybe they thought it was a beta of 6 but labeled as 5...I dunno.
 
Well, for those of you who are disappointed that the MacBidouille benchmarks are fakes, I can offer you some goods news that is actually grounded in reality. The Power 4+ (i.e. 130 nm Power 4) is officially shipping at 1.7 Ghz:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/05/05/HNibmpseries_1.html

Why is this a big deal (assuming you don't have $190,000 to blow on a 4 way p670)?

Because, as you know, the PPC 970 is derived from the Power 4. However, because of a variety of factors, the PPC 970 can be clocked substantially higher than Power 4 (it uses faster switching, less reliable transistors, it has only one core and less cache, so it dissipates considerably less heat, etc.). Therefore, the fact that the Power 4 is already hitting 1.7 Ghz on a 130 nm process indicates that the PPC 970 will scale far above the initial 1.8 Ghz clock speed on a 130 nm process. The IBM page at CeBit (which was pulled) certainly suggested that it would hit at least 2.5 Ghz on the 130 nm process, and I would say that this Power 4 news definitely seems to confirm that. The may only ship the 970 at 1.8 Ghz initially, but I suspect that they will scale to 2.5 Ghz very quickly (certainly quicker than it took Motorola to get from 733 mhz to 1+ Ghz...possibly even as fast as six months, I would guess). And if IBM switches to 90 nm in any reasonable time frame...heh heh...I would guess that a 90 nm Prescott (Pentium 4...maybe they'll call it Pentium 5, but it is pretty much the same core) will not compete that well with a 90 nm PPC 970, especially when you consider that the 970 is MP capable and the P4 is not.
 
Originally posted by macrumors12345

Look, I honestly don't mean to offend you, but if you are thinking that these are real, you are just going to be disappointed.

Why would I be disappointed? Didn't you, yourself, say that, although you are sure that these benchmarks are fake, you believe that they are right around where real benchmarks will be? So even if I did believe that these benchmarks are definitely true (which I don't), I still wouldn't be disappointed when the real 970s come out, right? ;)


It is not true that we don't have a way to judge them. We do have a way to judge them: the scientific method.

Hate to say it, but your scientific method is grossly flawed. Let me elaborate...


(1) The G4/P4 benchmarks are clearly stolen from BareFeats. The only way that these benchmarks could then be valid is if the same tests were independently run on the 970.

Explained. (May be a BS explanation, but an explanation has been given.)



(2) The Bryce 5 benchmark shows a more than 2x increase in going from SP 970 to DP 970.
FACT: Bryce 5 is not multithreaded. Therefore, the DP 970 will not display an increase of that magnitude over the SP 970 in Bryce 5.

Again, explained. (Again, could be a BS explanation, but an explanation has been given.) And, indeed, there has been some corraboration of the existence of a Bryce6 beta.


(3) The Photoshop benchmark shows a more than 2x increase in going from the SP 970 to the DP 970.
FACT: The Photoshop benchmark is the BareFeats "Photoshop SP" benchmark, i.e. it only includes actions which do not take advantage of multiple processors. Therefore, the DP 970 will not display an increase of that magnitude over the SP 970 in this benchmark.

(Note, as you actually repeated this one, I ignored your first statement about this to address it here.)

I don't have an explanation for this. Indeed, what seems most likely is that the tester used some other PhotoShop test, as the likelihood of him/her having the BareFeats proprietary SP test suite seems unlikely. If that was the case, and whatever was used to test the 970SP and DP was multithreaded, then the fact that there was such a significant jump would make sense.



At the end of the day, therefore, the data is not consistent with the facts that we know to be true. Given that these facts are known beyond a reasonable doubt, we must reject the data. There is no other logically consistent choice.

At the end of the day, we don't have enough data to say anything other than that these results are very suspicious. There is a reasonable explanation that would give the same data as what we have that does not include the data being falsified. (It does tend to include the data being of much less significance as a comparison to the P4 and G4, and, if we assume that the tester was trying to create a solid comparison, paints the tester as a bit of a moron, but those are entirely different issues.)


The problem that you are having is that you refuse to accept the conclusion that the data is falsified.

I refuse to accept that because there isn't enough evidence to warrant accepting that.

Yes. I will grant that it is quite possible, perhaps even likely, that the data was falsified. However, there is not yet sufficient data to make that statement absolutely.

I understand that you are very attached to these benchmarks and that you want to believe the MacBd source has been telling the truth. We all want to believe it, myself included.

Honestly, I don't care one way or the other. Like you, I believe that the real benchmarks of the 970 will be quite impressive. I'm truly looking forward to seeing them. Whether these were faked or not doesn't ruffle a single hair on my head.

What does ruffle me is making absolute statements based on insufficient information.

However, in this case, the only reasonable conclusion is that the benchmarks are false.

If I had to place a bet on whether these benchmarks were falsified or not, I would, in all likelihood, bet that they were. However, that doesn't mean that I think that such a bet was a sure thing.

If you wanted to truly prove to me that there was falsehood going on here, then find me a copy of Bryce6 beta, and show me that it isn't multithreaded. That would punch a hole in the argument that couldn't be repaired. Then there would be enough information to say, with certainty, that someone is lying.

For the record, I am a scientist. Making judgements with insufficient information is one of the worst things you can do in a lab. It is something that is sure to get a research paper shot down in review, and such a paper will never see publication.
 
Re: As for the "MB just published what they got"

Originally posted by Kai
Well - if that's the case, they would need a serious lesson in technical background!

I don't wanna come off as arrogant (too late, eh? ;-)), but writing for a Mac-Magazine myself i would check and doublecheck Benchmark-numbers of supposed future Apple hardware atleast 4 times and apply a good can of logic derived from a certain technical background (Bryce != Dual-CPU is a pretty well known fact f.ex, as is the Barefeats-Photoshop-SP-Suite being Single-CPU only! Also average C4D-SMP-Factors should be common knowledge if you're publishing technical articles like this!) if some "reliable source" sent these results to me!

That's a very important (if not THE most important!) part of the whole journo-biz: You just don't publish anything just because someone sends it to you claiming he/she's a "reliable source"!

And for those saying "it's just a rumour, it doesn't mean anything, calm down": Did you see what a dive Apples stockprice took when the G5 wasn't presented in Jan02, cause loads and loads of sites all linked either directly or indirectly to Tony Smith's stories on TheReg where he told us just how amazing the G5 will be, Benchmarks and all, and that it certainly will be released in January? Do you remember just how disappointed the whole community was? And because of what? Apple never promised anything, in fact they even gave us a hint through saying "there's much life left in the G4", but back then we were all too excited about what good old Tony told us on TheReg to listen!
Just realize the impact one single source can have on the whole community, Apples stockprice and the public's perception of Apple!

Well, Apples stockprice is on the rise again finally, due to good news from the iTunes-Store-Front, and i don't know about you, but I for my part certainly don't want to see the whole story repeat when the P970 is not released on/after WWDC!

(It seems the whole G5-thing wasn't completely false because as we all know now Moto canned the G5 midway, so Tony shouldn't take all the blame, actually Moto is the main culprit! Still, he should've chosen a more careful wording when writing his articles and should've constantly pointed out that this is all just a possibility! Apple itself certainly isn't to blame for the disaster, nevertheless they got all the FLAK for it! And you really wonder why Apple has a grudge against the rumour-sites? Well, look at the nose-dive their shares took after the G5 didn't come and just imagine how many hundreds of millions a "simple" rumour cost them! Btw: A close third after Moto and Tony are we, the whole community that just bought the rumours without questioning! That's why we should've learned our lesson and i for my part am extra-suspicious about rumours for future Apple-CPUs now!)
Well maybe they were guilty of not checking every bit of information. So what? It's a BLOOOOODY RUMOUR. Now if you want to start attacking them on their technical abilities, be my guest: those guys have a history of hardware and software hacking on the Mac platform and their knowledge is rather extensive... But that doesn't mean they are always right. Keep that in mind and chill.

Nicoman
 
Re: Rumours:

Originally posted by Kai
Rumours are great. I love em. I love discussing them. But, and here comes the important bit: If something is so obviously fake as this one (believe me: Barefeats was the first page i surfed to for comparison as i know that Photoshop/Bryce/C4D is their usual test-suite!) it simply angers me if the person publishing the "rumour" doesn't even apply the most basic common knowledge to verify the numbers before publishing!
If i get some "rumour" i check it thoroughly before publishing it, and i choose very careful wording in my article. Or if it's all over the newspages already i write about it and debunk it in the same article.
There are good fakes and bad fakes. I would never blame anyone for falling for a really well crafted fake, like e.g. the iWalk back then! However, this is a bad fake, and MB should've seen it themselves before publishing it!
I just hate it when such a bad fake gets such exposure as this one currently does! Oh look, it seems it's gone from Slashdot now! ;-) Good, finally someone took action against it!

For what it's worth, I've tried to go through other rumour sites that were commenting on Macbidouille's data. Almost everyone agrees that those numbers are somewhat inaccurate BUT they are in the right ballpark.
I personally believe that the source could have done his (her?) own test on the new machines and provide the barefeats number for reference, EVEN if those relate to different tests (which make those benchmarks irrelevent - note that I said that they are irrelevent, I cannot comment on their veracity), and I believe that is exactly what macBidouille have said; not more, not less.

Again, let's all chill a bit. I don't understand how people can become all wound up over this...

NicoMan
 
PPC970 Soon? Who knows for sure?

Okay, it seems that the benchmarks that MacBidouille received may have been fabricated, but we can all be certain that the PPC970 will be better than anything that Motorola will do with the G4. So, that means that the Macintosh platform will get a very nice boost in performance when the PPC970 appears.

However, I think some of the recent discussions have overlooked a key issue. That is, who really knows when the PPC970-based Macintosh is going to be released? It seems that many are assuming that it will be very soon, or at the very least that there will be a demo or announcement at WWDC. However, I think that is far from certain. There might be some talk about it behind closed doors, but IMO Steve Jobs won't be speaking the number "970" or talking about a "G5" at WWDC.

If I had to guess when the PPC970 Macs will be available I'd say late this year or early 2004. There might be an announcement from Apple concerning the PPC970 before that time (a little before), but I don't think we'll see any significant numbers of these new machines for quite a while. In the interim there will probably be another bump in the speeds of the G4 and the iBooks.

And before anyone mentions the delay in WWDC as a "proof" that a PPC970 announcement is close at hand, I think Apple's explanation is the plain truth, the delay is related to the Panther developer release (OS X 10.3).
 
Timeframe:

So, that means that the Macintosh platform will get a very nice boost in performance when the PPC970 appears.

That's correct. It definately will, the P970 sure is a beast and will most likely be the biggest leap the Mac-Platform has ever taken (not even 68k -> PPC was that big, cause at that time all the existing code had to be emulated, meaning a huge Overhead! No emulation this time!)
I'm not really sure how these strange somehow "special" 5-ops-groups work out with existing code, but i guess IBM built a nice dispatcher that'll take care of the grouping. For more Info on what i mean read this most excellent John Stokes article: http://arstechnica.com/cpu/02q2/ppc970/ppc970-1.html

To sum this up, if you look how "shallow" the P4 is concerning parallel execution and how "wide" the P970 is, while still being able to pump ops as fast as the P4, i guess it's a safe bet to say that even if the P970 can't form proper groups with existing code in the beginning and most groups contain only 1 or 2 ops it should be still as fast as a P4, with alot of potential to exploit for later on when IBM delivers the proper compilers! It could be like when the P4 was introduced, remember how it got trounced by P3s and Athlons bigtime, even though it had 50% more clock? And how this radically changed later on when Software started to emerge that had been compiled using Intels P4-optimizing compilers?

Sorry, i got carried a bit astray there! ;-) What i was trying to say is, that ALL these "WWDC" and "P970 = mid-2002" rumours came ALSO from MacBidouille! Supposedly from the same "source"! So if this benchmark is bogus, it is highly likely all their other P970-information was, too!
So i just don't want to see anybody being "disappointed" when there's no trace of the P970 on WWDC!
IBM said Second-half/End-2003 for mass manufacturing! That's what i'm sticking with for the moment!.. And besides: Even though quite a few things outside MacBd hint towards Apple using the P970 (suspicious quotes from IBM, Altivec, certain logic) remember that we still don't have real PROOF that Apple will be using it!

I for my part certainly hope they will though!...
 
Re: PPC970 Soon? Who knows for sure?

Originally posted by fpnc
However, I think some of the recent discussions have overlooked a key issue. That is, who really knows when the PPC970-based Macintosh is going to be released? It seems that many are assuming that it will be very soon, or at the very least that there will be a demo or announcement at WWDC. However, I think that is far from certain. There might be some talk about it behind closed doors, but IMO Steve Jobs won't be speaking the number "970" or talking about a "G5" at WWDC. (OS X 10.3).

I for one hope Apple have learned something from the PowerBook 17" fiasco, and do not shoot their mouths off too soon, or take orders for things before they're ready.

Then again, rumour sites like this must contribute to massive growing pressure on Apple to make announcements, any announcements, so I can simpathise.

We want it all!
 
Re: Re: PPC970 Soon? Who knows for sure?

Originally posted by The Shadow

Then again, rumour sites like this must contribute to massive growing pressure on Apple to make announcements, any announcements, so I can simpathise.

We want it all!

They could have been leaked by Apple to take the heat off. We can spend a couple of weeks yakking about the benchmarks instead of moaning about how much we all want one of these new machines.

We just got a PM with dual 1.2 GHz and that is the fastest, smoothest machine I have ever worked on. 20inch ASD doesnt hurt. The PC crowd at work are getting really pissed off at us very happy 2%ers...

I want a 970 in a PB (am still hoping) and if these things come close to the dual G4 I will be over the moon...

Cheers
 
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