macbook air / electric shock anyone?

[netdog]

My only shock has been how great it is.

 

[INEEDANOTEBOOK]

Don't know if it's about being thick or thin skinned, but I would be interested to hear how you would propose earthing the power supply of any current Apple laptop or the laptop itself.



One just need to do as in any electric device -- just isolate users from the electrified parts...

I feel that you are still missing the point here: I just wanted to know if some macbook air users have experienced the leakage problems that tend to occur on macbook pros.

and BTW, mate, you need to work on your attitude. Seriously.

 

[gr8tfly]

Don't know if it's about being thick or thin skinned, but I would be interested to hear how you would propose earthing the power supply of any current Apple laptop or the laptop itself. They have no earth terminal to connect to an earthed socket. I suppose you could use a jump lead to clamp the laptop and connect it to a water pipe but that wouldn't do the Mac's resale value much good. You could also sacrifice one of your usb ports and connect the earthing sleeve to an earth connection, but what you are suggesting seems, as the lack of response suggests, not a well known problem. The problem with this sort of forum, and even with the Apple discussion boards to a certain extent, that even the weirdest fault report will generate a certain following. I'm sure that if you reported say that the 'q' key doesn't work on the third Tuesday of the month when it falls on an even date, that you would get a non zero response confirming this software bug. That does not mean that the problem is real.

The included 3-prong extension provides the ground path. It makes the connection through the button it slides onto on the supply (replacing the fold-up 2-prong).

 

[rosschang]

I have similar experience with my Mac Pro. I get a Zzzzap shock everytime I press the power button.

Did a few test with the power plugs and moving my plugs away from my voltage regulator to the regular power strip and issue gone.

Apparently the Voltage regulator is not grounded properly (or spoil? dammit~!)

 

[INEEDANOTEBOOK]

I have similar experience with my Mac Pro. I get a Zzzzap shock everytime I press the power button.

Did a few test with the power plugs and moving my plugs away from my voltage regulator to the regular power strip and issue gone.

Apparently the Voltage regulator is not grounded properly (or spoil? dammit~!)

---------------------

Your case is a typical example of what we are discussing here. You have an electric leakage and grounding properly your machine "solves" the problem. Except that it does not solve the source of the leakage itself, and that your problem will reappear every time your computer is not properly grounded. I would suggest you to take it for repair.

Can you give us more info?
How did it appear? Did your computer fall or something?

 

[gr8tfly]

---------------------

Your case is a typical example of what we are discussing here. You have an electric leakage and grounding properly your machine "solves" the problem. Except that it does not solve the source of the leakage itself, and that your problem will reappear every time your computer is not properly grounded. I would suggest you to take it for repair.

Can you give us more info?
How did it appear? Did your computer fall or something?

It's [most likely] not the computer's fault. That's why myself and [I suspect] others have stayed away from specific models in the discussion (much as you would like to narrow it down to the 2010 models). The problem has to do with grounds around the house sitting at different levels. There are some other threads here at MR with more details on the electrical principles involved. As much as I like to post complete answers directly to a thread, this is a case where Google can also help.

Although there certainly is a way for the leakage current to come from a defect in a computer (and that's the argument you are trying to use, where proper grounding acts as it should to keep equipment safe), the vast majority of cases originate with the mains wiring. Grounding is a solution, in most cases - not a "bandaid". But the source usually doesn't come from the machine in question.

 

[INEEDANOTEBOOK]

It's [most likely] not the computer's fault. That's why myself and [I suspect] others have stayed away from specific models in the discussion (much as you would like to narrow it down to the 2010 models). The problem has to do with grounds around the house sitting at different levels. There are some other threads here at MR with more details on the electrical principles involved. As much as I like to post complete answers directly to a thread, this is a case where Google can also help.

Although there certainly is a way for the leakage current to come from a defect in a computer (and that's the argument you are trying to use, where proper grounding acts as it should to keep equipment safe), the vast majority of cases originate with the mains wiring. Grounding is a solution, in most cases - not a "bandaid". But the source usually doesn't come from the machine in question.

________________

At the origin, this thread was set up only to ask MBA 2010 owners if they were experiencing electric shocks through their machines.

We started to discuss the nature of these leakages in order to ascertain that:
1 - it was indeed possible to be shocked by one's laptop
2 - these shocks were not simple statics
From your posts, I assume that we agree on these points.

Now, I understand that the fact that these leakages may not come from the machines themselves is important to you. I'm interested in your explanation and I would be glad if you could indicate the sources you are citing. Yet, from a user's point of view, the problem remains the same to me -- there should not be any leakage at all: in other words, metal cases should be insulated from any electric currents, wherever they come from. Don't you agree?

 

[gr8tfly]

________________

At the origin, this thread was set up only to ask MBA 2010 owners if they were experiencing electric shocks through their machines.

We started to discuss the nature of these leakages in order to ascertain that:
1 - it was indeed possible to be shocked by one's laptop
2 - these shocks were not simple statics
From your posts, I assume that we agree on these points.

Now, I understand that the fact that these leakages may not come from the machines themselves is important to you. I'm interested in your explanation and I would be glad if you could indicate the sources you are citing. Yet, from a user's point of view, the problem remains the same to me -- there should not be any leakage at all: in other words, metal cases should be insulated from any electric currents, wherever they come from. Don't you agree?

No, I don't agree - it just doesn't work that way. You actually want cases grounded, in general, to prevent any potential (re: voltage) from developing between the case and local grounds. What happens in the situations I've been describing is the ground in one area is different than ground in another area (where the machine is), thus allowing a small voltage and very small current, to develop between the case and a ground path (the person feeling the "tingling"). This is what is felt as the "tingling" or "buzzing". So, in the sense a case should be isolated, I disagree. From the users point of view, I do agree - but the solution doesn't reside in the machine. The solution (as said here and other threads) is to use the grounded extension, which will put the ground at the machine at the same potential as the rest of the house (or, just a room, depending on where the ground has changed). Ideally, the whole house's grounds should all be at the same level. I think you'll find this is a pretty good practical description of the problem (it's 1am, so I could be off somewhere, and I'm oversimplifying in some places), but you can do further research on your own.

I'll post back with a link to another thread where there are some other posts describing the problem. (I have it on my Mac - I'm on my iPad, at the moment, and don't have my full set of references I've compiled over the years.)

edit 1: Another reason for grounding the case goes beyond just eliminating leakage current, but for a much more serious reason: if for some reason the a/c hot should connect to the case, it will go to ground - not through the user! This should have been my first reason, but I was focused on the leakage current question.

edit 2: Well, my references didn't have what I was looking for. Anyway, here are some links you might find helpful:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/230685/ This thread follows the same sort of discussion we're having here. Search MR for more (keywords: tingle; case; and the like)

"Why Grounding?" Check the sections on Currents In Grounding Wire, How electric shock happens, and Metal case safety


​

 

[INEEDANOTEBOOK]

[[ No, I don't agree - it just doesn't work that way. You actually want cases grounded, in general, to prevent any potential (re: voltage) from developing between the case and local grounds. What happens in the situations I've been describing is the ground in one area is different than ground in another area (where the machine is), thus allowing a small voltage and very small current, to develop between the case and a ground path (the person feeling the "tingling"). This is what is felt as the "tingling" or "buzzing". So, in the sense a case should be isolated, I disagree. From the users point of view, I do agree - but the solution doesn't reside in the machine. ]]


_________________

Thanks for your post.

We both agree that one wants cases grounded in general. No doubt. We don't agree on the question whether it is sufficient or not - that is whether it is "normal" that current is leaking without it.

The sources you cite rather tend to support my point, honestly -- See the link "why grounding" for instance:

quote 1 - "This purpose of grounding is the most important one to understand. Grounding system provides certain level of safety to humans and property in case of equipment damages."
> in case of equipment damages - not as a normal function

quote 2 - "The main reason why grounding is used in electrical distribution network is the safety: when all metallic parts in electrical equipments are grounded then if the insulation inside the equipments fails there are no dangerous voltages present in the equipment case."
> if the insulation inside the equipments fails... - same idea

quote 3 - the whole section "metal case safety", and this quote in particular:
"One of the problems with appliances and equipment which have a "floating metal case" is that a shock hazard exists if the case comes into contact with the hot wire. This so called "fault condition" may happen in many ways with some of the more common causes being a "pinched" line cord, failure of installation systems, or movement of components due to shock or vibration which will cause the "hot wire" terminal to touch the case."
> this is exactly what I was saying, almost word for word...

On the other hands, I did not see anything supporting your point. Or am I too partial?

I will tell you why I don't like the whole idea that insufficient electric insulation is "normal" and why grounding is "the solution": simply because it assumes that doing so will necessary fix the problem. But it's not. We both know that electric installations in many homes are not done properly or are simply outdated. In those cases, even those who use the right cable will be shocked. You can always blame the owners of these houses and all, but still... any electric machine design should take into account this possibility. So... relying on grounding alone is not normal, all machines should properly insulate their owners from shocks.

Plus, lack of electric insulation is simply illegal in many countries. The minimum safety requirement is a single insulation + grounding. The highest requirement is a double isolation without grounding (highly mobile machines).

(BTW it is easy to "test" your hypothesis: if those who have shocks with their machines also possess another metal case notebook that never shocks them - then the leakage does not come from their house system but from their machines.)

 

[INEEDANOTEBOOK]

No, I don't agree - it just doesn't work that way. You actually want cases grounded, in general, to prevent any potential (re: voltage) from developing between the case and local grounds. What happens in the situations I've been describing is the ground in one area is different than ground in another area (where the machine is), thus allowing a small voltage and very small current, to develop between the case and a ground path (the person feeling the "tingling"). This is what is felt as the "tingling" or "buzzing". So, in the sense a case should be isolated, I disagree. From the users point of view, I do agree - but the solution doesn't reside in the machine. The solution (as said here and other threads) is to use the grounded extension, which will put the ground at the machine at the same potential as the rest of the house (or, just a room, depending on where the ground has changed). Ideally, the whole house's grounds should all be at the same level. I think you'll find this is a pretty good practical description of the problem (it's 1am, so I could be off somewhere, and I'm oversimplifying in some places), but you can do further research on your own.

I'll post back with a link to another thread where there are some other posts describing the problem. (I have it on my Mac - I'm on my iPad, at the moment, and don't have my full set of references I've compiled over the years.)

edit 1: Another reason for grounding the case goes beyond just eliminating leakage current, but for a much more serious reason: if for some reason the a/c hot should connect to the case, it will go to ground - not through the user! This should have been my first reason, but I was focused on the leakage current question.

edit 2: Well, my references didn't have what I was looking for. Anyway, here are some links you might find helpful:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/230685/ This thread follows the same sort of discussion we're having here. Search MR for more (keywords: tingle; case; and the like)

"Why Grounding?" Check the sections on Currents In Grounding Wire, How electric shock happens, and Metal case safety


​

In fact, if Apple thinks like that (insufficient insulation is alright) then the problem is worse than I initially thought.

Let me explain: at the beginning, I thought that the leakages reported by some users where primarily due to a defect of their machines - after letting them fall on the ground or something... Thus repairing their machines was all they needed.

But if these leakages appear because these machines are insufficiently insulated by design, then it is a serious design flaw.

 

[gr8tfly]

In fact, if Apple thinks like that (insufficient insulation is alright) then the problem is worse than I initially thought.

Let me explain: at the beginning, I thought that the leakages reported by some users where primarily due to a defect of their machines - after letting them fall on the ground or something... Thus repairing their machines was all they needed.

But if these leakages appear because these machines are insufficiently insulated by design, then it is a serious design flaw.

In your previous post (I didn't quote here), you're misinterpreting the quotes to support your ideas, especially the third. How can you both agree with the danger of a "floating" case, and yet say it supports your assessment that the case should be insulated (which equals "floating")?

The leakage gets to the case because it's floating when only connected by the ungrounded 2-prong adapter. It's grounded when the extension is used. I've explained and notated as much as I will, here.

I think you'll need to do a bit more research and learning of electrical theories. I don't say that in a negative way, I'm just stating what I believe will help you understand what's going on electrically. I'm at a loss and just repeating the cycle of posts other threads follow here (including the one link I posted).

 

[INEEDANOTEBOOK]

In your previous post (I didn't quote here), you're misinterpreting the quotes to support your ideas, especially the third. How can you both agree with the danger of a "floating" case, and yet say it supports your assessment that the case should be insulated (which equals "floating")?

The leakage gets to the case because it's floating when only connected by the ungrounded 2-prong adapter. It's grounded when the extension is used. I've explained and notated as much as I will, here.

______________

gr8tfly --

When I say "not insulated", I mean insulated from the current, of course! I agree that cases must be grounded.

But grounding is just a safety device - just in case there is a leakage. Leakage is not a normal circumstance.

So, repeating over and over that we need to use the 3 prong extension without explanation is not helping. We all know that. If you can explain the exact cause of these leakages, however, THAT would be very helpful. I've read lots of threads about that, this problem occurs with apparently all metal case Apple notebooks (I'm not limiting this problem to the 2010, by the way, I just wanted to know if the 2010 MBA had the same pb) but I've never seen any satisfactory explanation so far.

Sorry to have exhausted your patience...

Anyway, the good news is that no MBA 2010 user has experienced this kind of problem so far...

 

[kthorogood]

Yes

To answer the original question - (i have scanned a couple of posts but not read all). I am getting a vibrating metal case and minor electric shocks all around my Macbook Air newest model (with backlit keyboard) 13 inch.
However, it only happens when plugged in - meaning I have just left it to charge for a while whilst waiting for it to charge a bit before use!
If you want to work on it whilst plugged in I would buy another Pc or netbook, for a fraction of the cost, based on what i have read! I'll be selling on this one for sure! Would take it back,but now I have left the States where I bought the bloody thing - my first indulgence into Apple products and possibly my last!

 

[ritmomundo]

I've never gotten a shock from my 2010 MBA or 2011 MBP. But I do get a shock when I'm touching the shopping carts at Costco. So weird...

 

[GGJstudios]

macbook air / electric shock anyone?

Thanks for offering, but that's a tough choice! Both sound tempting, but I guess I'll choose the MacBook Air.
(I know it's a necrothread, but I couldn't resist!)

 

[firewood]

But if these leakages appear because these machines are insufficiently insulated by design, then it is a serious design flaw.

It is by design. And it is not a flaw according to the product safety agencies.

Because the very tiny allowed leakage is not to charge you up. It's to help remove some of the many thousands of volts of charge you can generate when you rub your shoes on the carpet on a dry day.

You're the high voltage problem, not the laptop.

Here's the example:

But I do get a shock when I'm touching the shopping carts at Costco. So weird...

 

[ShannonLee]

2012 mba

We have a 2008 MBP, 2010 MBP, and a new (1 month old) 2012 MBA. We have had no problems what so ever with the two MBPs, great machines. The new MBA is giving us the electric tingle even when the power cord (European) is grounded.

This is NOT normal. I am an IT professional and have worked on and owned more machines than I care to count and none of them gave off an electric current.

We are taking it to a certified dealer this week to see what they say.

 

[INEEDANOTEBOOK]

Thanks for offering, but that's a tough choice! Both sound tempting, but I guess I'll choose the MacBook Air.
(I know it's a necrothread, but I couldn't resist!)

Sound like you already had plenty of both, anyways!

 

[Gator Bob]

Try to focus -- the question is: Do any macbook air 2010 (11 or 13) owners have had that kind of electric shocks from their machines?

Never once with a 2011 13" i7 256 SSD Air in 6 months of use. When at home I use the Air in closed clamshell mode with apple keyboard, magic mouse and magic trackpad with mini displayport to hdmi into a Dell 2408.

 

[Ezrienne]

Macbook Air Electric Shock

Hi Everyone,

I thought I'd add in to the discussion- I purchased a 2011 Macbook Air last month and have been experiencing similar problems. Right after I bought it I took it to the UK for a school workshop where I used the Apple UK adaptor which doesn't allow for the ground extension. I noticed the shocks there - a continuous tingling that went right up my arms. At the time I thought I was a little nuts, but it continued to occur.

When I got home I switched back to the US 2-prong plug and still experienced the tingling shocks, and after looking it up online switched to the grounded plug, which does not appear to be making any difference. Nor does having the computer unplugged. I can only really use it for short bursts of time when I'm typing or doing anything on the keyboard because the continuous shocks, while mild, are a bit painful over time.

I've got a 2010 macbook pro as well which serves as my primary computer and has never given me these problems, nor have previous models of macs, some of which have gone with me to school in the UK using the same UK plug. I'm not sure what makes this model so different but I am going to take it into the store next week and see if anything can be done to sort out the problem. Since it's only a month since I bought it, it's still under the warranty period.

I'll keep you all posted if any solutions are offered!

 

[laxrass]

Yes, my arm is numb and tingly constantly now 5+ days

Does anyone has electric shock problems with a macbook air 2010?

I already have an Imac, and need a laptop as a second computer, but there seems to be a well-known problem of electric zaps with the precedent generations of macbooks (white and pros). As I don't want to pay big bucks for something that shocks me , does anyone have such a pb with the new G of macbook airs?
Tx!

Hi there!

I found this thread because my right arm has a lot of pain when I outstretch it and otherwise have the area near my wrist and forearm that has gone tingly and numb whether I'm at my Mac or not. I believe this is a result of my right hand sitting on my track pad for extended periods of time - I'm an entrepreneur and not making this up, just really irritates me that this will probably never get resolved as Apple is huge and would never admit to a recall or serious issue this really is (it impacts health, is not a typical bug or software issue). I feel like any 3rd party reading this will think I'm crazy, but I just needed to put this out there somewhere because I'm really disappointed - I friggin love this machine otherwise.

Anyway, I can feel the electricity flowing into me from my computer, and I tried to just get used to it because I didn't notice anything wrong w/ my arms or body until recently. I've had this thing for 6-8 months and I am seriously worried about permanent damage to my arm/arteries, or whatever is going on here. I am now using a mouse, and feel like I am getting the electricity coming into me still from just hovering my hands near the track pad to type, but it is much lower degrees and bearable as I rely on using the lap top each day.

I also noticed that many people only see the issue when their Air is plugged into a wall - I do agree this could have heightened the issue in case something wasn't grounded well at one of the plugs I've been using, but now I can tell almost always as the pain and numbness act up when I'm on the Mac -- my fiance has a different model and I'm not having the issue on hers.

2 things that could make this more unique to me than others, but has me writing regardless as I'm afraid even smaller amounts of electricity flowing into the body probably isn't good even if not detected by the average user. 1) I recently had the track pad replaced at Apple because it was "sticking" when I wasn't pushing down, and mind you this is less than 1 yr old MacBook Air that still looks like it is in mint condition. I take very good care of it. 2) I do run an application called "Caffeine" most of the time (I now have this turned off) that basically keeps your display from falling asleep when idle/pretty much always runs at the higher power that is provided when plugged into a socket. It essentially acts like it's plugged into a wall all of the time, so I think that is why I am always feeling the issue vs. others who only feel the issue when it is plugged in.

I'm very surprised to see such little response on this thread because my sister also has a MacBook Air that she bought a few months after me (she has different power connector - almost seems like they knew something was wrong w/ the version I received to change up the power connectors)... except she also now says her right hand (same one she uses for the track pad) is getting similar sensations. She also does not run "Caffeine" as mentioned above.

I do know what carpal tunnel (sp?) is, and otherwise would say that's probably the case. But I genuinely feel the electricity coming into my body and think most are probably experiencing this but either A) Aren't feeling it enough to call it an issue B) Not on their computer as often so not seeing side-effects (yet) C) Some of the Macs are worse than others, perhaps... so I will leave this to be very specific to MacBook Airs 13.5 inch Mid 2011 model. (even though I bought later than Mid 2011).

Thx,

Ross