Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
The problem is indeed Apple’s pricing. I’ll explain why.

OP, you’re comparing Apple’s pricing vs. competitors. I believe Apple has artificially driven up pricing across the industry in what was nearly a commoditized product. You almost get to this point at the end, I think without realizing it. Let’s compare Apple to itself.

In 2008 I bought a Dell computer for $1,179 (Canadian dollars). Later that year I bought a first week unibody Macbook with the same specs for $1,400. The Macbook had a lower rez screen but better contrast; otherwise identical specs except for much superior build quality.

Inflation adjusted pricing for the Macbook at $1,400 is $1,669.57 (today’s dollars). The next year the price was reduced $1,250 ($1,490 today’s dollars). We now gain retina screens and SSD’s and lose optical drives and ports. SSD pricing is now comparable to platter drive costs of the day. High rez screens have also become commoditized. We can call component cost a draw, although it probably favors a price reduction.

One big hit comes with storage costs. 500 GB had become a standard amount of storage on a Macbook. A current Macbook Pro with similar storage is $2,199 (Canadian) and an Air is $1,949. The least expensive current Mac is $459 (2019 dollars) more than previously established pricing.

One thing that 2008 Mac gave me was reliability. It’s still in daily use. I don’t have this faith in the current Macs. The Dell failed and was fixed under first year warranty. It died totally again a few years later. The Mac was well worth the 19% pricing premium. Now we’re paying more and in terms of reliability I believe we’re getting less. The value is gone.

Apple's products are more expensive not because of their quality, but because of the perception of their uniqueness.

Computers are all commoditized products, as you mentioned. They are all basically replaceable by similar products, and no company has the upper hand here. The computers manufactured by one company use the same processors, screens, memory, storage, as the computers manufactured by all the others. So, there should be no price difference here.

Apple is in a unique position, as it makes its own OS. Some people may find it better than Windows, and some people may find it worse. But the competitive advantage is that macOS and Windows are different; and that, while all companies are allowed to make computers running Windows, only Apple can sell computers running macOS.

So, Apple created a market of its own here, and the more people find Macs unique, more it will position itself as a monopolist, and control the prices. Apple is not evil because of this, as this is the dream of every company. In a way, this is not a bad thing: companies who keep some decent margins are able to offer better quality in their products. Of course, if prices are too high, people will move to Windows machines, as they are replacements for Macs, although not the same products, in the minds of consumers.

Coffee and tea are two very different products. But people who consume coffee will begin consuming tea if the price difference becomes too high. Apple will make Macs expensive, but not so expensive to the point of making them unattractive to their public compared to Windows alternatives. The same logic applies to the iPhone and to all other Apple products.

One way of trying to avoid this is keeping people locked in Apple's ecosystem. If you are too integrated into Apple's ecosystem, you may agree to pay a higher price for the convenience. But there is a limit to that as well.

So, Apple's products are expensive. Yes, they are, but not overly expensive, given that people can move anytime to other products.
 
My wife and I are going on 1.6 years of ownership of these things and we've had 0 problems with the keyboards. While I am not a heavy user of my keyboard, my wife is (typing out papers upon papers) ... we know many people with these laptops at school, etc... - the whole idea that these keyboards are unusable is laughable at best. Totally and completely understand that some people don't like them.

Typing papers doesn't heat the thing up. Try applying 50C to those small plastic switches and keep typing away...
 
Typing papers doesn't heat the thing up. Try applying 50C to those small plastic switches and keep typing away...

Lol yeah my 2017 13" TB usually hits 55 - 60c doing virtualisation... Going on my 3rd keyboard now
 
  • Like
Reactions: Queen6
My main problem with Apple’s pricing is their fixed price structure for their products compared to dell for example

Dell had a sale for their XPS 15.... a free display upgrade from whatever tier that They had listed

We get nothing from Apple!

How about a free 32 gig of memory upgrade when you opt for the Vega 16/20

or a 4TB SSD for the price of 2 TB every once in awhile

We don’t get anything.... it would be nice to get a discount every now and then.... especially when the MBP 15 is till offering that funky *** Radeon 560X that I refuse to buy
 
XPS 15 is not a plastic garbage mess, you don't know what you are talking about at all. Did you just complain about an XPS 15 keyboard, in light of the issue with MacBook keyboards? How can anyone take you seriously.

Back in 2018, I was able to save £1,000 on an equally spec'd MBP and XPS 15 (you can easily get 10% off listed Dell prices, while you can only do that on a Mac as a student).

MacBook's literally are selling due to MacOS.

Yes!!
XPS is where it's at!! ;)
And the Ram and SSD is not soldiered in and is user accessible.
There is even a maintenance manual posted for all to see.
OP is having a "Pipe Dream"!! 😇
 
XPS 15 is not a plastic garbage mess, you don't know what you are talking about at all. Did you just complain about an XPS 15 keyboard, in light of the issue with MacBook keyboards? How can anyone take you seriously.

Back in 2018, I was able to save £1,000 on an equally spec'd MBP and XPS 15 (you can easily get 10% off listed Dell prices, while you can only do that on a Mac as a student).

MacBook's literally are selling due to MacOS.

Well, I have a Dell XPS 15 and I have problems with the keyboard registering double spaces. I have two different Macs with a butterfly keyboard (a 13-inch MacBook Pro and a 13-inch MacBook Air), from different generations, and I do not have a problem with either of them. I had other problems with my XPS 15 (swollen battery, failed SSD, broken chassis), while I had never had a problem with any of these recent MacBooks.

So, while some people may complain about the reliability of the MacBooks, in my experience, they were far superior to the XPS in this respect. I know that there are more complains about MacBooks than XPSs, but the MacBook sells in much larger numbers than the XPS.

But, of course, there are other Windows laptops that may be more reliable than the XPS. MacBooks are selling due to macOS and Apple brand, that is for sure; consumers have plenty of options to choose from in the Windows world.
 
Well, I have a Dell XPS 15 and I have problems with the keyboard registering double spaces. I have two different Macs with a butterfly keyboard (a 13-inch MacBook Pro and a 13-inch MacBook Air), from different generations, and I do not have a problem with either of them. I had other problems with my XPS 15 (swollen battery, failed SSD, broken chassis), while I had never had a problem with any of these recent MacBooks.

So, while some people may complain about the reliability of the MacBooks, in my experience, they were far superior to the XPS in this respect. I know that there are more complains about MacBooks than XPSs, but the MacBook sells in much larger numbers than the XPS.

But, of course, there are other Windows laptops that may be more reliable than the XPS. MacBooks are selling due to macOS and Apple brand, that is for sure; consumers have plenty of options to choose from in the Windows world.

So as for if one is more reliable than the other, it is all speculation. What I will say though is we are not comparing like for like, the MacBooks are quite a bit more expensive than the equivalent XPS 15 (and even more so when you include the discounts available due to negotiable prices of Dell in general), so either way regardless of whether XPS 15 has quality issues or not, it doesn't justify MacBook's having serious flaws.
 
Simple I don't expect such amateur issues from a premium provider. Apple should have resolved the Butterfly keyboard issue within the first 12 months if not sooner, not extend it for Apple's own selfish interest, let alone the other myriad issues this generation of MBP has suffered. I purchase premium for good reason, bad design, that's poorly executed isn't factor I'm remotely interested in...

Q-6
 
Last edited:
Simple I don't expect such amateur issues from a premium provider. Apple should have resolved the Butterfly keyboard issue within the first 12 months if not sooner, not extend it for Apple's own selfish interest, let alone the other myriad issues this generation of MBP has suffered. I purchase premium for good reason, bad design, that's poorly executed isn't factor I'm remotely interested in...

Q-6
Agree 100%. Things have really taken a turn for the worse with quality issues. I type this on my sturdy joy-to-use early 2013 13" MBP and can't contemplate replacing it with another MBP until it is proven that Apple has actually improved the quality of the new models.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Queen6
Agree 100%. Things have really taken a turn for the worse with quality issues. I type this on my sturdy joy-to-use early 2013 13" MBP and can't contemplate replacing it with another MBP until it is proven that Apple has actually improved the quality of the new models.

For me the price isn't the issue as long as the value exists, however Apple has opted to focus solely on profit at all other cost. In that pursuit Apple has lost both my professional and personal business, no excuses needed. What is required is solid delivery, solid products not empty statements & excuses, worse blatantly ignoring customers concerns.

Once 100% Apple today 0% as that's all Apple now understands. W10 OEM's were more than happy to fill the void with faster more powerful solutions, that are designed by professionals for professional use in the real world...

Q-6
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Expos of 1969
There is a problem with your logic and comparisons.

1. Nvidia graphic card is way better than AMD and that's the fact. AMD doesn't even have high-end GPU at this point. 7nm AMD GPU is comparable with 12nm Nvidia GPU which is a joke. Most software takes advantage of Nvidia instead of AMD such as Adobe. Gonna use Adobe on MBP? You are wasting tons of money for that cause Windows laptop can do better. Oh yeah, MBP doesn't even support Nvidia GPU even with eGPU. It just sucks. The point is Mac computers are mostly meant for their own software like Final Cut Pro X.

2. Laptops that you mentioned have better display with 4K resolution while 15 inch has 2880-by-1800. Also, both laptops have an anti-glare finish which is an important point. Most professional monitors have anti-glare finish, unlike Apple's monitor. Tell me if you know any professional monitors with glare finish? I highly doubt that especially for photography and video. There are professional glossy monitors for specific uses such as hospitals but is it even related? Because the reflective monitor is very bothering and it affects the brightness and colors.

3. A touch bar is a joke. It's not productive and Apple doesn't have any products with a touch bar other than MBP.

4. The keyboard is very fragile and poorly designed. Nobody wants that.
 
There is a problem with your logic and comparisons.

1. Nvidia graphic card is way better than AMD and that's the fact. AMD doesn't even have high-end GPU at this point. 7nm AMD GPU is comparable with 12nm Nvidia GPU which is a joke. Most software takes advantage of Nvidia instead of AMD such as Adobe. Gonna use Adobe on MBP? You are wasting tons of money for that cause Windows laptop can do better. Oh yeah, MBP doesn't even support Nvidia GPU even with eGPU. It just sucks. The point is Mac computers are mostly meant for their own software like Final Cut Pro X.

2. Laptops that you mentioned have better display with 4K resolution while 15 inch has 2880-by-1800. Also, both laptops have an anti-glare finish which is an important point. Most professional monitors have anti-glare finish, unlike Apple's monitor. Tell me if you know any professional monitors with glare finish? I highly doubt that especially for photography and video. There are professional glossy monitors for specific uses such as hospitals but is it even related? Because the reflective monitor is very bothering and it affects the brightness and colors.

3. A touch bar is a joke. It's not productive and Apple doesn't have any products with a touch bar other than MBP.

4. The keyboard is very fragile and poorly designed. Nobody wants that.

Simple the MBP has just become another disposable consumer product and why many have dropped Apple as there's no rational alternative outside of Windows or Linux. Personally never seen so many dump the Mac since the 2016 MBP launched and who can blame them...

Q-6
 
Last edited:
i want to see a 32/512 15" machine for $2400.

My thinkpad from early 2019 :oops:. I priced out a similar MBP at the time, and that would have run me 4,600 dollars. Even the extended warranty is significantly less expensive then what apple charges,

1573212901765.png
 
Yes MacBook Pro are expensive, or Apple's product in general, but on a MBP/iMac/MacPro you can install W10 via BootCamp, you have Pages, Numbers, KeyNote, iMovie and Photos included. Theses software are not as good as MS Office, or FinalCut or LR for example but good enough to not spend more money on software.
 
Oh yeah, MBP doesn't even support Nvidia GPU even with eGPU. It just sucks. The point is Mac computers are mostly meant for their own software like Final Cut Pro X.

They don't even keep their own software, I miss Aperture!

All your points are spot on.
 
you can install W10 via BootCamp,
I've done that, and that works very well, but there does seem to be some odd driver issue here or there on occasion. Still its a great feature, if Apple transitions from intel, may very well drive others away.

I miss Aperture!
yeah, me too, I transitioned to LR a few years ago when they announced that it's being killed off. Even before that, they let the app just whither on the vine.

I don't get it, other developers are only now starting to catch up to Adobe with products that can do non-destructive edits AND include a full-featured DAM. Apple predated Adobe one this, a great DAM and good non-destructive editing. They were going toe to toe with Adobe and just gave up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Queen6
Agree 100%. Things have really taken a turn for the worse with quality issues. I type this on my sturdy joy-to-use early 2013 13" MBP and can't contemplate replacing it with another MBP until it is proven that Apple has actually improved the quality of the new models.

Paying more for less makes no sense, add in the reliability issues Apple is simply a joke now, nor does Apple's arrogance help. Tip you don't design or produce the best notebooks anymore by a wide margin, wake up, grow up or deliver...

Q-6
 
Last edited:
So as for if one is more reliable than the other, it is all speculation. What I will say though is we are not comparing like for like, the MacBooks are quite a bit more expensive than the equivalent XPS 15 (and even more so when you include the discounts available due to negotiable prices of Dell in general), so either way regardless of whether XPS 15 has quality issues or not, it doesn't justify MacBook's having serious flaws.

Yes, definitely. And there are several options among laptops running Windows, which are very good and for a lower price than the MacBook Pro.

I usually have second thoughts about buying a laptop thinking of long-term reliability. The premium that I pay for the laptop now may not be worth it, as I could change the laptop more frequently and benefit from latest tech.
[automerge]1573510456[/automerge]
The point is Mac computers are mostly meant for their own software like Final Cut Pro X.

It seems so. I am a frequente user of Microsoft Office, and I can tell you that it runs better on a low-end Windows computer than on a very powerful Mac...
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.