Macbook Pro RAID 0 Benchmarks & Discussion (SSD/HDD)

[el-John-o]

lol

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it's a RAM disk, so the moment you turn off the computer you lose all the data. It was probably posted as a joke.

Read up, we covered all this and discussed it a couple weeks ago.

But yeah, it was just something silly. Not a 'joke' but more of an 'I wonder'. I mean I know how fast DDR3 RAM is, you can google that! But I just wondered what Black Magic would read a RAM disk as!

Hey all
Since I'm waiting for my SSD in the mail, and am planning on using it along with the stock 500GB HDD, can anyone tell me how bootcamp behaves in a RAID0 configuration?

You won't be able to do a RAID0 configuration like that. RAID0 requires two completely identical drives (same size, make, model, etc.)

In RAID0, the data is 'striped' over both IDENTICAL drives. Some of the data goes to drive 1, some of the data to drive 2. Being able to read and write to both drives at the same time makes it extremely fast. This isn't possible with two separate types, brands, models, or sizes of drives.

You CAN look in to creating a homemade 'fusion drive' though, which will use the SSD as a really big 'cache' of sorts, and the other drive for storage.

Finally, the RAID0 configuration we are using is a software RAID. You cannot dual-boot or use boot camp in this configuration. That would require a hardware RAID, which the MacBook Pro does not support (that requires a seperate RAID controller, like you might find installed in a Mac Pro desktop). So, under a RAID configuration, you cannot use boot camp. (You can also not use 'find my mac' or a recovery partition)

However, I've found that with an SSD Parallels works extremely well. Applications, even games, works flawlessly and as you would expect. You may want to upgrade your RAM to get the best performance, as having enough RAM for both to use without paging out ensures good performance. You can also use VirtualBox, which is free. It's a tad more complicated and much slower... but it's free! Parallels operates WITHIN Mac OS X so it can work with any type of a RAID setup.

By the way, the same goes for a fusion drive. If you setup a fusion drive, you cannot use Boot camp.

The best configuration if you want to run boot camp is just JBOD (stands for 'Just a Bunch Of Disks'), in other words, each drive becomes an individual drive. Depending on the size of your SSD, I would just partition it into two partitions with boot camp, and install both Windows and OSX and your most intense applications, and put the rest on the other drive. However, if I were in your shoes, I think I'd make a fusion drive (fairly complicated but it doesn't have to be if you just make sure to carefully read and follow the instructions exactly), and just run Parallels or another VM.

-John

 

[iVikD]

Read up, we covered all this and discussed it a couple weeks ago.

But yeah, it was just something silly. Not a 'joke' but more of an 'I wonder'. I mean I know how fast DDR3 RAM is, you can google that! But I just wondered what Black Magic would read a RAM disk as!



You won't be able to do a RAID0 configuration like that. RAID0 requires two completely identical drives (same size, make, model, etc.)

In RAID0, the data is 'striped' over both IDENTICAL drives. Some of the data goes to drive 1, some of the data to drive 2. Being able to read and write to both drives at the same time makes it extremely fast. This isn't possible with two separate types, brands, models, or sizes of drives.

You CAN look in to creating a homemade 'fusion drive' though, which will use the SSD as a really big 'cache' of sorts, and the other drive for storage.

Finally, the RAID0 configuration we are using is a software RAID. You cannot dual-boot or use boot camp in this configuration. That would require a hardware RAID, which the MacBook Pro does not support (that requires a seperate RAID controller, like you might find installed in a Mac Pro desktop). So, under a RAID configuration, you cannot use boot camp. (You can also not use 'find my mac' or a recovery partition)

However, I've found that with an SSD Parallels works extremely well. Applications, even games, works flawlessly and as you would expect. You may want to upgrade your RAM to get the best performance, as having enough RAM for both to use without paging out ensures good performance. You can also use VirtualBox, which is free. It's a tad more complicated and much slower... but it's free! Parallels operates WITHIN Mac OS X so it can work with any type of a RAID setup.

By the way, the same goes for a fusion drive. If you setup a fusion drive, you cannot use Boot camp.

The best configuration if you want to run boot camp is just JBOD (stands for 'Just a Bunch Of Disks'), in other words, each drive becomes an individual drive. Depending on the size of your SSD, I would just partition it into two partitions with boot camp, and install both Windows and OSX and your most intense applications, and put the rest on the other drive. However, if I were in your shoes, I think I'd make a fusion drive (fairly complicated but it doesn't have to be if you just make sure to carefully read and follow the instructions exactly), and just run Parallels or another VM.

-John

Thank you for such a detailed response, that answers pretty much all my questions. I did buy 16GB of RAM (2x8), so memory won't be a problem. I've used parallels before, and it's a great tool, however, I do need windows installed on the drive for certain reasons, so I think I'll just split the SSD in two and work with that and the HDD as storage. Would it be too much to ask if the HDD formatted as exFAT would work as shared storage for OSX and Windows?

 

[Ploki]

(You can also not use 'find my mac' or a recovery partition)

i believe that is false

 

[el-John-o]

i believe that is false

Wish it was. But in fact, you cannot. I have a RAID0 system, unless you know of a workaround, Apple does not allow a recovery partition on a RAID0 system. Consequently, find my mac requires the recovery partition to be present.

There are some good alternative solutions that are free or cheap though. I don't quite know why Apple has this limitation, you can partition a RAID volume just fine. But perhaps it has something to do with the type of software RAID Apple uses, not being compatible with the recovery partition or find my mac software. It WOULD work with a hardware RAID, but that is not an option on the MacBook Pro!

Thank you for such a detailed response, that answers pretty much all my questions. I did buy 16GB of RAM (2x8), so memory won't be a problem. I've used parallels before, and it's a great tool, however, I do need windows installed on the drive for certain reasons, so I think I'll just split the SSD in two and work with that and the HDD as storage. Would it be too much to ask if the HDD formatted as exFAT would work as shared storage for OSX and Windows?

Yes, exFAT will work as combined storage. However if it were me, I'd just format it as a normal HFS drive, and use drivers in Windows (they come with bootcamp) to allow Windows to read and write to the drive.

Also, it's worth mentioning that you CAN run RAID0 with spinning drives. It won't be as fast as an SSD, but it'll be twice as fast (give or take) as a single standard drive. Both drives have to be identical (same brand, same model, same size), but it can be setup that way. That's a good way to get a ton of storage, decent speed, and not spend a lot. HOWEVER, your battery life will suffer. In RAID0, both drives are on and active all the time so it will suck the battery down a bit. (Not so with an SSD because they use such little power, I still get 7+ hours with dual SSD's)

Also, with any striped RAID system, there is a greater risk of data loss. Double the speed, double the risk of loss. If one drive fails, you lose everything. I remedy that by using Time Machine with a time capsule, so I have constantly automatic backups. Either way, if you do a RAID or a fusion drive setup, you should consider a backup solution. (You really should anyway, hard drives do fail, even SSD's!)

 

[Ploki]

Wish it was. But in fact, you cannot. I have a RAID0 system, unless you know of a workaround, Apple does not allow a recovery partition on a RAID0 system. Consequently, find my mac requires the recovery partition to be present.

Why? I'm running raid0 at the moment and I can "find it" via iCloud? Or does that refer to wiping the drive?

 

[el-John-o]

Why? I'm running raid0 at the moment and I can "find it" via iCloud? Or does that refer to wiping the drive?

What version of OSX are you running? Mountain Lion was not able to create a recovery partition due to an 'unsupported drive configuration', and a quick google search reveals half a dozen sources saying the same thing (you can't put a recovery partition on a RAID0 array)

When I attempt to enable Find My Mac, this is what I get (see attached)

When you say you can find it, what do you mean? You can use 'find my Mac'? Curious as to how you got that working. I've not been able to find a workaround to get find my mac working without a recovery partition (or get a recovery partition on a RAID0 array)

 

[Ploki]

What version of OSX are you running? Mountain Lion was not able to create a recovery partition due to an 'unsupported drive configuration', and a quick google search reveals half a dozen sources saying the same thing (you can't put a recovery partition on a RAID0 array)

When I attempt to enable Find My Mac, this is what I get (see attached)

When you say you can find it, what do you mean? You can use 'find my Mac'? Curious as to how you got that working. I've not been able to find a workaround to get find my mac working without a recovery partition (or get a recovery partition on a RAID0 array)

<holy smokes my name in the image wait till i make a new one>

No idea why it works. Perhaps because I upgraded from 10.7? RAID was created on 10.7 and then upgraded to ML.

this is my old laptop

 

[el-John-o]

<holy smokes my name in the image wait till i make a new one>

No idea why it works. Perhaps because I upgraded from 10.7? RAID was created on 10.7 and then upgraded to ML.

this is my old laptop

That's odd for sure. You've stumbled on something. However, even on 10.7, per what I've read, you couldn't make a recovery partition on a RAID?

Hmm.. that stinks! But it gives hope, there MUST be a way right?

 

[Ploki]

That's odd for sure. You've stumbled on something. However, even on 10.7, per what I've read, you couldn't make a recovery partition on a RAID?

Hmm.. that stinks! But it gives hope, there MUST be a way right?

nope, no recovery partition. I did a fresh install of 10.7 when I wiped and partitioned it.

 

[el-John-o]

nope, no recovery partition. I did a fresh install of 10.7 when I wiped and partitioned it.

So I'm completely stumped. OSX Is telling me, as is every source online I've found, that you have to have a recovery partition for find my Mac. But it's working fine for you!

Huh...

 

[ironcladlou]

13" Mid 2012, 2.9 i7, 16 gigs RAM, 2 non-pro Samsung 840s, 128k block size. Tried a fusion drive with one 840 and the newer model Momentus XT and was not very impressed with the read speeds once I exceeded the storage capacity of the SSD. Obviously much happier with this.

 

[zaki]

Running 2 Samsung 840 Pro 256's without any issues.

2012 cMBP 15"
2.7Ghz i7
16Gb RAM

 

[Ploki]

So I'm completely stumped. OSX Is telling me, as is every source online I've found, that you have to have a recovery partition for find my Mac. But it's working fine for you!

Huh...

Odd. I tested it and it works flawlessly via icloud.com from my retina. I don't have a recovery partition 100%

Running 2 Samsung 840 Pro 256's without any issues.

2012 cMBP 15"
2.7Ghz i7
16Gb RAM

this is ****ing insane. Love it.

 

[el-John-o]

Odd. I tested it and it works flawlessly via icloud.com from my retina. I don't have a recovery partition 100%

Retina is a different story. You aren't running a RAID configuration there, it's entirely different. In fact, you gain power nap on the retina, which isn't supported officially on ANY non-retina or non-air MacBook, even if you've swapped to SSD's.

 

[zaki]

I'm using two Samsung SSD 830 Series 256GB (Raid0) without any problems in my 15" MacBook Pro (Mid2012). I tried to replace them with two Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB. The 840 Pro didn't work on the Superdrive-SATAIII Port. So, i moved back to the 830 series...

Curious to know why the 840 pro's wouldn't work?

My set up works great.

 

[Ploki]

Retina is a different story. You aren't running a RAID configuration there, it's entirely different. In fact, you gain power nap on the retina, which isn't supported officially on ANY non-retina or non-air MacBook, even if you've swapped to SSD's.

nah, i tried to find my old mac from my new mac.

 

[el-John-o]

nah, i tried to find my old mac from my new mac.

Ahhh okay.

Yeah I'm stumped, wish I could figure it out.

I know that my Mac tells me, without a recovery partition, Find My Mac is a no-go on Lion or Mountain Lion. It also tells me that I have an 'unsupported Hard Drive' (RAID) so I cannot HAVE a recovery partition. Everything I find on 'the Google' tells me the same thing, that in Lion and Mountain Lion you cannot use Find My Mac or create a recovery partition.

But you two can! Tell me your secrets! LOL

I have a theory though. I wonder if I install Mountain Lion on an external drive, complete with recovery partition.. and then CLONE that drive to my RAID array, which should keep the partition table in tact, if it would work?

 

[Ploki]

Ahhh okay.

Yeah I'm stumped, wish I could figure it out.

I know that my Mac tells me, without a recovery partition, Find My Mac is a no-go on Lion or Mountain Lion. It also tells me that I have an 'unsupported Hard Drive' (RAID) so I cannot HAVE a recovery partition. Everything I find on 'the Google' tells me the same thing, that in Lion and Mountain Lion you cannot use Find My Mac or create a recovery partition.

But you two can! Tell me your secrets! LOL

I have a theory though. I wonder if I install Mountain Lion on an external drive, complete with recovery partition.. and then CLONE that drive to my RAID array, which should keep the partition table in tact, if it would work?

I'll wipe it someday soon and try to get Find my Mac to work again

 

[Brian Y]

If you clone an installation from a non-raid disk onto a RAID disk then find my mac will work, however the remote wipe/lock wont. I'm not sure you can clone an entire partition mapping from a non raid drive to another though - so I'm not sure if the idea above will work.

The OS X installer cannot create a recovery partition if you have a RAID array, therefore your recovery options are limited to the Internet Recovery thing.

 

[blutus]

New try

So, i tried again a RAID0 set with the 840 pro series from Samsung. And now, with the new firmware from the middle of descember, it works properly. I measure sequential reading speed of about 1100 MB/s and writing speed of about 873 MB/s. Im fine with reading, but my expectations on writing is more than 873 MB/s. I compared the performance of booting Mac OS ML and Windows 7 pro on the Samsung 830 RAID0 set. It is the same, so no improvement on this...

 

[Hexley]

15" mbp (mid-2012)
16GB Ram
840s (non-pro) RAID 0
10.8.2
TRIM Off

I was expecting the write to exceed 500MB and the read to exceed 950MB.

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Running 2 Samsung 840 Pro 256's without any issues.

2012 cMBP 15"
2.7Ghz i7
16Gb RAM

How is your boot and shutdown time?

 

[johnnnw]

Okay here's one for ya..


I have 16 gigs of RAM in my machine, and I used tmpdisk to create an 8GB RAM disk. I believe it's actually faster than this, black magic was being really erratic. I was able to duplicate a 3.2GB file within the RAM disk virtually instantly (under a second)

This blows my mind, never seen speeds like this.

 

[blutus]

I have some boot times:

OS X 10.8.2: 14.3 s
(from pressing the power button to the desktop)

Windows 7 pro: 12.3 s
(from starting Parallels Desktop 8 to the Windows desktop)

Windows 8 pro: 9.9 s
(from starting Parallels Desktop 8 to the Windows start screen)

 

[alphaod]

This is the result of a RAID 0 between two 250GB Samsung 840 SSDs:

RAID done on Disk Utility with a Promise Pegasus J4 via Thunderbolt.

 

[johnnnw]

I love reading this thread, makes me so excited I decided on the non-retina MBP. I'm going to RAID some 840 Pros in a few months.

One question... I thought that when you used two 256GB in RAID 0 it would only be total 256GB of storage? Is it actually a total of 512GB?