Macintosh Moving to Intel Processors [Updated]

[fordlemon]

The day Apple died

This truely is a sad week. This will be the end of Apple hardware. I guess they rather be a software developer. Now anybody will be able to use their software and it will not perform the same. Might as well use Windows now. I've used Apples since 1977. The more modern ones are the best they've ever made because of the software integration with the hardware. This is why a lower ghz machine (compared to an x86) performed better with video and audio recording (why I use Apples now). Also this is why they are less prone to viruses, they are more difficult to right because pieces of Macintosh software are imbedded in the processor. What a bunch of crap. I guess I'll have to order a decent G5 while I can for a couple more years of great video editing. I'm really pissed. Bad mistake by Apple. So long Apple, it's been a good run, you should've kept up the fight.

 

[Mord]

-Motherboards: lots of quality names. Especially VIA.

hate to break it to you, VIA sucks, i have only ever bought two boards from them and both were DOA, others have had similar experiences, and there AMD offerings dont overclock for ****, 10% max.

 

[fordlemon]

Over the last few days I read 100s of post bashing jobs for moving to Intel. Most say his choice has to do with greed, or that he has sold out. I say you are all wrong.

Jobs’ decision to move to Intel is about the company’s survival.

Wow, I couldn't disagree with you more. Apple has a select audience and knows it. They aren't anywhere close to going out of business. Most users buy Apples for video and audio editing because the Software to Hardware connection is far superior to anything a x86 machine can offer. Now that will be taken away and there is no longer any point to purchase an Apple. This is a big mistake. I believe Apple hardware will become obsolete and die. They will now try to become a Software only company and try to compete with Microsoft. They've made their bed and now they must sleep in it. However, the Intel processors they are using has not been disclosed. If Intel manufactures the PPC (God I hope so) We can all rejoice! But I doubt it.

 

[CrazySteve]

Wow, I couldn't disagree with you more. Apple has a select audience and knows it. They aren't anywhere close to going out of business. Most users buy Apples for video and audio editing because the Software to Hardware connection is far superior to anything a x86 machine can offer. Now that will be taken away and there is no longer any point to purchase an Apple. This is a big mistake. I believe Apple hardware will become obsolete and die. They will now try to become a Software only company and try to compete with Microsoft. They've made their bed and now they must sleep in it. However, the Intel processors they are using has not been disclosed. If Intel manufactures the PPC (God I hope so) We can all rejoice! But I doubt it.

You better clean your loupe son because Apple is distributing pentium-4
developing kits.

 

[CrazySteve]

They already have the customers. A different, Apple-owned socket will keep people from putting in stock Intel processors, even if they're 99.9% the same as the ones Intel sells for the PC market. At that point, just building OS X around the an Apple-designed chipset/system controller hardware would isolate it to Apple's platform. Unless you have the time and know-how to write your own system controller software and rebuild OS X, and then write your own drivers for your non-Apple system components (ethernet, video, audio, Firewire, USB, wireless, and so on), you're not going to bother. And for the six or seven people who do bother, Apple can stand to lose the sale.

Most people would rather pay a few hundred dollars extra for saving them the time, expense, skill, and effort involved and also get a more attractive piece of hardware, inside and out. Hell, most people I know would still buy Apples based on the design alone, even if the hardware were identical to a high-end PC.

You don't quite grasp it do you ? These things (chipsets, socket, ethernet, video, audio, firewire whatever) didn't pose a problem to
Mac-on-linux or PearPC did they ? Why should they be a problem
on x86 ? They are completely irrelevant and dont solve the BIG problem.

 

[fordlemon]

You better clean your loupe son because Apple is distributing pentium-4
developing kits.

Ok, so it's the end of Apple hardware, so now they become Software only as I had predicted. Too bad. I'm going to sell my 500,000 shares of Apple stock before it plumets.

 

[tdewey]

This truely is a sad week. This will be the end of Apple hardware. I guess they rather be a software developer. Now anybody will be able to use their software and it will not perform the same. Might as well use Windows now. I've used Apples since 1977. The more modern ones are the best they've ever made because of the software integration with the hardware. This is why a lower ghz machine (compared to an x86) performed better with video and audio recording (why I use Apples now). Also this is why they are less prone to viruses, they are more difficult to right because pieces of Macintosh software are imbedded in the processor. What a bunch of crap. I guess I'll have to order a decent G5 while I can for a couple more years of great video editing. I'm really pissed. Bad mistake by Apple. So long Apple, it's been a good run, you should've kept up the fight.

You know nothing of what you speak.

 

[matticus008]

You don't quite grasp it do you ? These things (chipsets, socket, ethernet, video, audio, firewire whatever) didn't pose a problem to
Mac-on-linux or PearPC did they ? Why should they be a problem
on x86 ? They are completely irrelevant and dont solve the BIG problem.

You don't quite know what PearPC is, then, I take it. It emulates all the hardware. The ethernet connection, USB and firewire bus, even the disk interface. So they've created a fake system that can run OS X, not drivers for separate hardware. PearPC is a complete virtual machine, not a software port. No one has solved the problem of the hardware components yet.

They are completely relevant and solve the problem, which is not a big problem. 99% of computer users will still be unable to run OS X on their generic PCs. That tiny minority that puts in the time, effort, and inevitably money to hack OS X has always existed and will always exist. It means effectively nothing for Apple.

 

[fordlemon]

You know nothing of what you speak.

Ok, that's why I dumped a ****load of pc recording equipment for a G4 powerbook and 16 channels of MOTU for a mobile recording rig that works flawlessly because it is NOT an x86 processor. You have no clue, you will see what happens. Mac sales will die and fast.

 

[CrazySteve]

You don't quite know what PearPC is, then, I take it. It emulates all the hardware. The ethernet connection, USB and firewire bus, even the disk interface. So they've created a fake system that can run OS X, not drivers for separate hardware. PearPC is a complete virtual machine, not a software port. No one has solved the problem of the hardware components yet.

They are completely relevant and solve the problem, which is not a big problem. 99% of computer users will still be unable to run OS X on their generic PCs. That tiny minority that puts in the time, effort, and inevitably money to hack OS X has always existed and will always exist. It means effectively nothing for Apple.

Your thought process doesn't cease to amaze me. PearPC is an emulator
yes. The reason its slow is it currently has to emulate the PPC.
If you *just* think for a second, just *think* that now OSX runs on
x86 and they wont have to emulate the PPC anymore you can understand
how fast this thing will run.

Mac-on-linux is not an emulator. It runs on PPC hardware that has
nothing to do with Apple (AmigaPPC, Pegasos) and CURRENTLY
runs OSX at native speed.

 

[GTKpower]

hate to break it to you, VIA sucks, i have only ever bought two boards from them and both were DOA, others have had similar experiences, and there AMD offerings dont overclock for ****, 10% max.

1.) I've used VIA for a while now, and I've installed VIA mobos on friends' computers. They were fine.

2.) Why would you overclock a fast CPU? With prices as they are, you can simply buy a new one and pop it in. That's what I've been doing for years.

Overclocking is a complete hobbyists phenomenon. Spend a bit more money and get a better chip, pop it in yourself.

I was at an Apple vendor (deals exclusively in Apple) and I was VERY impressed with OS X. In fact, I was about to buy a G5! I asked the sales rep if I can get a faster cpu, one that I'll just pop in myself, maybe a faster G5. An AMD socket A, after all, accepts a whole generation of cpus. I had an Athlon XP1800, then upgraded a while later to a 2000+, and to a 3000+ about a year ago. Surely, I can mix and match Apple hardware too, right?

Nope.

Well, that didn't make sense to me. He said it would be VERY difficult if not impossible to remove the G5 cpu from the logic board. I asked him what it would take to just upgrade the cpu whenever I wanted. A new logic board . . . . for serious $$$.

I asked him how I was supposed to upgrade this wonderful system? A new videocard. OK. More RAM. Fine. But no cpu and no mobo/cpu switching.

A BIG dealbreaker.

I hope this will change with the new Apple-Intel marriage.

 

[eVolcre]

Wow, I couldn't disagree with you more. Apple has a select audience and knows it. They aren't anywhere close to going out of business. Most users buy Apples for video and audio editing because the Software to Hardware connection is far superior to anything a x86 machine can offer. Now that will be taken away and there is no longer any point to purchase an Apple. This is a big mistake. I believe Apple hardware will become obsolete and die. They will now try to become a Software only company and try to compete with Microsoft. They've made their bed and now they must sleep in it. However, the Intel processors they are using has not been disclosed. If Intel manufactures the PPC (God I hope so) We can all rejoice! But I doubt it.

Dude, you guys just don't get it. It's been a 100 pages of the SAME drivel. I don't care how good Apple/Mac is/was/are - there was ZERO chip innovation coming from IBM. No laptop chips, nothing major for the PowerPc line. steve had NO choice.

Sheesh. Anyway, since there is no point to buying an Apple we wish you goodbye and hope you enjoy your time with XP.

Read Jasons huge post a few threads back. There is a LOT more to Mac architechture than just the chip sitting inside it.

 

[VanMac]

100

Page 100. Wow

BTW - Intel move is a good one in my books. Longterm thinking for sure.

 

[CrazySteve]

I want explanations

What i'd really like to hear is Steve Jobs come out and answer all
these pending questions. The announcement had me sitting on
hot coals all these days.

 

[Peace]

Your thought process doesn't cease to amaze me. PearPC is an emulator
yes. The reason its slow is it currently has to emulate the PPC.
If you *just* think for a second, just *think* that now OSX runs on
x86 and they wont have to emulate the PPC anymore you can understand
how fast this thing will run.

Mac-on-linux is not an emulator. It runs on PPC hardware that has
nothing to do with Apple (AmigaPPC, Pegasos) and CURRENTLY
runs OSX at native speed.

MOL does not support the G5 or OSX 10.3.3 and above..

 

[GTKpower]

Dude, you guys just don't get it. It's been a 100 pages of the SAME drivel. I don't care how good Apple/Mac is/was/are - there was ZERO chip innovation coming from IBM. No laptop chips, nothing major for the PowerPc line. steve had NO choice.

Exactly.

I certainly hope that at the very least, OS X survives on whatever it'll be running on. It's a fantastic OS.

 

[VanMac]

I'm going to sell my 500,000 shares of Apple stock before it plumets.

Ya, if you had 500,000 shares, you'd be geeking away on this board posting rubbish.

If you had market sense, you would realize that now would be the time to buy. Apple is making a longterm move here, and will gain marketshare and profitability.

 

[matticus008]

Ok, so it's the end of Apple hardware, so now they become Software only as I had predicted. Too bad. I'm going to sell my 500,000 shares of Apple stock before it plumets.

For crying out loud, THIS IS NOT THE END OF APPLE HARDWARE. There is nothing fundamentally different for the average end consumer, except that the type of processor has changed. Yes, Intel will make it. No, it's not necessarily going to be a Pentium. There is no guarantee that the future Intel processors for PC and for Mac are going to be interchangeable--just that they will be based on SOME extended form of the x86 architecture. It's sad to see PowerPC go, but Apple didn't abandon it, IBM did. Windows will run on the new platforms in all likelihood, but OS X will not.

A square is a rectangle, but not vice versa. Windows is like the rectangle, supporting multiple configurations, platforms, technologies, and peripherals. Drivers are available for almost all standard PC components for Windows. The same is NOT TRUE for OS X. It currently relies on a specific family of motherboards, with a specific family of control hardware and I/O systems. The playing field has been expanded to include the x86 processor architecture, but that's not the only element in the game. If it were, people would be able to use any off-the shelf PCI, AGP, Firewire, and PC Card hardware. Apple will continue to control the hardware, and develop integrated support only for their chosen line of components. People don't invest in writing OS X for all the little bits of hardware that Apple doesn't support. The change of the CPU will not suddenly make all those people start writing OS X drivers, so you'll still generally be stuck with whatever Apple chooses to supply you with.

There is no direct binary compatibility with Windows software (at this point in time), and there is no general support for other variations in design. Apple will still control its own market unless another manufacturer produces a completely compatible set of hardware components (which won't happen so long as Apple retains design control and ownership of its system controllers). Apple always has the legal card to play, even if someone enters the market with an Apple clone--OS X can only be installed on an Apple Macintosh computer. They don't go after end users who play with it, but they certainly would take down a company copying their designs for the purpose of running their software. Just because it has an x86-compatible processor does not automatically mean that they've opened the floodgate for every computer on the planet to work with OS X.

For most end users, nothing will change except that they may need to purchase newer versions of applications when they buy an x86-based Mac. But those x86 and PPC compatible versions will start appearing in a year or so, and if you don't want to upgrade to the newest version, keep your PowerPC-based Mac around. By the time you are forced to switch to x86 (replacing your 2007 iMac purchase in 2010, for example), you'll probably already have a hybrid version of all of your applications (and if you don't, you have a version that is at least a good 4 years old and you can continue using on an old Mac, or maybe Rosetta will be more advanced and powerful by then and deliver the performance you're used to today in realtime through its emulation layer). At least through the next five years or so, applications you buy will work with PPC, just as they now work on G3, G4, and G5 systems. They'll just have to work on G4, G5, and x86 starting about next year.

 

[mandis]

Dual 3Ghz Powermacs to be released soon!

In my opinion little is going to change with this transition. I still believe that that current PPC G5's are faster and more efficient than the P4's. Therefore i will still put my money on a Dual 3Ghz G5 when it is released later this year. You shouldn't expect to see a top of the line IntelMac for at least 2 years, so PPC is still a GREAT investment.

 

[ruud]

Ok, that's why I dumped a ****load of pc recording equipment for a G4 powerbook and 16 channels of MOTU for a mobile recording rig that works flawlessly because it is NOT an x86 processor. You have no clue, you will see what happens. Mac sales will die and fast.

What makes you think why this would not work on an x86 processor?

 

[matticus008]

Your thought process doesn't cease to amaze me. PearPC is an emulator
yes. The reason its slow is it currently has to emulate the PPC.
If you *just* think for a second, just *think* that now OSX runs on
x86 and they wont have to emulate the PPC anymore you can understand
how fast this thing will run.

Mac-on-linux is not an emulator. It runs on PPC hardware that has
nothing to do with Apple (AmigaPPC, Pegasos) and CURRENTLY
runs OSX at native speed.

You still aren't getting the point. PearPC emulates MORE THAN THE CPU. It emulates the entire system. It is a VIRTUAL MACHINE. If you switch out the PPC for an x86, you will STILL have slower performance because you have the overhead of the existing operating system and the best that a virtual machine can manage is to pass hardware calls through to the parent OS. So yes, you will be able to run OS X on PearPC much faster than you can now. But it still won't be the same as having the same hardware running natively. Furthermore, it is still only legal to install OS X on an Apple Macintosh. They've not enforced this to date, but if it becomes a serious issue, they will take steps to control the distribution of their software.

But let's say that you do get around having a parent OS and you run the emulation directly, killing the overhead. You still don't have the drivers you need. Can you write drivers for every piece of hardware in your system? No? Well then you will have to emulate the Apple hardware via an abstraction layer that converts the Apple drivers into instructions that your particular hardware can understand. There goes your speed advantage again, because you're still emulating hardware through a software layer.

Mac on Linux is irrelevant. It runs because you have a PowerPC computer from another vendor. Native speed is supplied because it's the same processor and system architecture--that is, NO EMULATION INVOLVED. You still need to write your own drivers for off-the-shelf hardware, unless you use underlying Linux drivers. Mac on Linux essentially provides the Aqua interface and Darwin microkernel to a PPC-Linux system. Strictly speaking, it is NOT truly OS X. It might as well be, for all it seems, but it has limitations and flaws, and it's not as good. The story will be the same in the future.

 

[svenr]

... If you had market sense, you would realize that now would be the time to buy. Apple is making a longterm move here, and will gain marketshare and profitability.

Interestingly, AAPL has dropped about $1.50 since Monday though:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AAPL&t=5d
Hmmm... maybe too early to tell

 

[MarkCollette]

two days for a good driver writer...code/debug...what's the issue???

My point, which you seem to agree with, is that it will be easy to get OS X 86 to work on regular PCs.

 

[VanMac]

Interestingly, AAPL has dropped about $1.50 since Monday though:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AAPL&t=5d
Hmmm... maybe too early to tell

Oh, I know. I watch their stock as I'm a small owner. Hence I might just buy some more. They may take a dip now, but I believe that it will move up once the smoke clears and things become better established. Good to buy on the dips

 

[matticus008]

My point, which you seem to agree with, is that it will be easy to get OS X 86 to work on regular PCs.

Except that it took years to develop Linux drivers for everyone's hardware, and even still, there are plenty of random peripherals that aren't supported. OS X, now that the PowerPC roadblock has been broken down by Apple, will still face the same problems as Linux. Most people simply won't bother to write drivers, especially given the fact that companies can't support any type of onboard driver without being sued by Apple. The good news is that more video cards, audio hardware, and hopefully hardware encoding/decoding hardware will now be supported by OS X. It'll be the grassroots developers that write all the drivers for non-Apple motherboards and override any EFI/BIOS/OpenFirmware proprietary formats that Apple chooses to implement. That process will largely depend on how popular certain motherboards are with the developers. If you're lucky enough to have a motherboard that the hackers cater to, OS X will run on your computer in short order, if you can find those drivers and/or custom OS X builds on the Internet.