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chibianh said:
yes.. what IS the beef against Intel? I still haven't gotten a clear answer to that question.


To the Mac-user's psyche, Intel = conformity. it doesn't matter how fast or good Intel is. If everyone else is using it, it won't make Mac users feel special.

Read these 100+ posts. You don't need a psychology degree to see what's going on here.

It's the need for differentiation - to be running something DIFFERENT from the crowd. Doesn't matter if it's better or worse, just as long as it's different enough to ascribe some "cool" factor to it by way of marketing.

After all, Apple's motto is: "Think Different" . . . . not "Be Better."

Oh, I know. I'm a former Mac user. From June 1994, to May 2002.
 
GTKpower said:
To the Mac-user's psyche, Intel = conformity. it doesn't matter how fast or good Intel is. If everyone else is using it, it won't make Mac users feel special.

Read these 100+ posts. You don't need a psychology degree to see what's going on here.

It's the need for differentiation - to be running something DIFFERENT from the crowd. Doesn't matter if it's better or worse, just as long as it's different enough to ascribe some "cool" factor to it by way of marketing.

After all, Apple's motto is: "Think Different" . . . . not "Be Better."

Oh, I know. I'm a former Mac user. From June 1994, to May 2002.

That's cool and all.. but hey, everyone else uses an iPod. Everyone else uses iTunes.. Mac users unite! Let's go buy an iRiver and use MusicMatch!! ;) :p
 
chibianh said:
That's cool and all.. but hey, everyone else uses an iPod. Everyone else uses iTunes.. Mac users unite! Let's go buy an iRiver and use MusicMatch!! ;) :p


Hehe . . . . :D

Look, folks, I know I've been engaging in some "Mac-bashing" in my last 2-3 posts. Nothing personal.

I for one, look forward to Macs on Intel. It just irritates me to see Apple mis-market such a wonderful OS.

They really should fix the Finder, by the way.
 
GTKpower said:
To the Mac-user's psyche, Intel = conformity. it doesn't matter how fast or good Intel is. If everyone else is using it, it won't make Mac users feel special.

Read these 100+ posts. You don't need a psychology degree to see what's going on here.

It's the need for differentiation - to be running something DIFFERENT from the crowd. Doesn't matter if it's better or worse, just as long as it's different enough to ascribe some "cool" factor to it by way of marketing.

After all, Apple's motto is: "Think Different" . . .
I'll be the first one to admit that I'm one of them - as I wrote earlier in this thread. Yes, years of "Think Different" indoctrination worked on me. Or maybe it just hit a cord with me; after all, I've been a Mac user since before they used this slogan. I don't like to think of myself as someone who's blindly following the herd as many PC users do.

But, I know, I know, lots of good reasons to join the herd this time. It just will take some time to get used to it... :eek:
 
GTKpower said:
To the Mac-user's psyche, Intel = conformity. it doesn't matter how fast or good Intel is. If everyone else is using it, it won't make Mac users feel special.

Read these 100+ posts. You don't need a psychology degree to see what's going on here.

It's the need for differentiation - to be running something DIFFERENT from the crowd. Doesn't matter if it's better or worse, just as long as it's different enough to ascribe some "cool" factor to it by way of marketing.

After all, Apple's motto is: "Think Different" . . . . not "Be Better."

Ah, but Microsoft and them are moving toward embracing PPC... in a few years, we WILL be different ;)

But seriously folks... we use the same monitors, the same keyboards (why aren't we all using Dvorak keyboards?), the same mice, the same graphics cards...

I think the heart and soul of the machine is the operating system, and I think that this move to Intel is going to expose that so much more. Hopefully OS X will run circles around XP/Longhorn given similar hardware and expose it for the ugly beast that it is. Everyone has taken for granted the slowness/bloat/security leaks. When they see something else running ON THE SAME HARDWARE that works so much better, they'll discover the Emperor has no clothes!

I think, in fact, Apple is doing what it's best at doing. It's entering a market and DOING IT BETTER. Look at the iPod. There were already mp3 players, there were already hard drive mp3 players, when the iPod was released. Was the iPod new? No. Was it executed better than anything else that was current at the time? Yes, and that's what made the difference.

The same goes with software. Was iTunes revolutionary? No, mp3 player software is a dime a dozen. Was iMovie new? No. iPhoto? iDVD? Were these apps slicker and better and easier to use than anything else that was already out there? YES.
 
i don't know if this has been posted before, but it looks like history might be repeating itself: http://projects.csail.mit.edu/gsb/archives/old/gsb-archive/gsb2001-06-29.html


Three thoughts to make you shudder: - Merced/Irix. - McKinley/HP-UX. - Itanium/VMS.

It has long been said that history repeats itself. It has more recently been mentioned that history is speeding up. But who knew that it had gotten so fast that giant corporations would line up to blow their brains out exactly the same way within three years of one another?

April 1998: a horrible accidental suicide begins, a suicide which will take upwards of three years to run its gory course. It begins as a strategic alliance. The victim is SGI which, seduced by Intel, decides to streamline its operations by focusing on making systems and software; SGI intends to cut hardware development costs by turning to Intel for all its processor needs. 64-bit MIPS chips look dull compared to the Intel Powerpoint-performance specs for IA64, so SGI spins off its MIPS business and bets the farm on IA64 being out by late 1999.

Intel sure pushes good crack. Craig Barrett, president and CEO of Intel: "We'll work closely with SGI to help them produce best-of-class Intel-based systems throughout their product line - from personal through high-end workstations to servers and supercomputers... Both Intel and SGI will work further on 64-bit systems as Intel's Merced processor becomes available in 1999 and SGI ports the IRIX operating system to Merced."

Midway through 2001 SGI still hasn't shipped an IA64 system because, well, Intel hasn't really shipped a usable IA64 just yet.

SGI's 1997 assets of $3.3 billion have, by now, been whittled away to $1.5 billion, with almost $800 million in losses reported in 2000 alone. Since the 2000 annual report came out, in fact, SGI has sold off another $100 million in property and yet, in spite of that, has burned through half its cash in about six months.

The writing is on the wall. SGI is bleeding out. And this is why it's so surprising that history is repeating itself so dramatically, so soon...

June, 2001: a horrible accidental suicide begins, a suicide which will take upwards of three years to run its gory course. It begins as a strategic alliance. The victim is Compaq which, seduced by Intel, decides to streamline its operations by focusing on making systems and software; Compaq intends to cut hardware development costs by turning to Intel for all its processor needs. 64-bit Alpha chips look dull compared to the Intel Powerpoint-performance specs for IA64, so Compaq gives all the Alpha technology to Intel and bets the farm on a high-performance IA64 being out well before 2004.

Intel sure pushes good crack. Craig Barrett, president and CEO of Intel: "This agreement with Compaq furthers our shared vision of delivering customer value by advancing high-performance, high-volume building blocks. Our agreement will bring higher levels of performance, availability and scalability to systems based on the Itanium processor family."

The writing is on the wall. Compaq's wrists are slit.

On top of these hideous reports, of course, we should also note that HP is pretty much out of the PA-RISC business, desperately trying to get itself onto the IA64 bandwagon, pretending along with everyone else that the bandwagon has wheels and a horse to pull it.

Check out that bloodflow!

To change metaphors abruptly, it looks like Intel stuck a plastic fin on its head marked "IA64", jumped into the 64-bit processor pool way in back of the other racers, shouted about how big the shark was under the fin, and HP, SGI, and now Compaq have all jumped out of the pool because, well, they're afraid that there might maybe someday be a shark grown up under that piece of plastic, and besides they think it'll be easier to just throw money at Intel to do all the racing in spite of the sudden absence of motivating competition.

Do we sound bitter? Oh no, we're not bitter. Just come join us as we mourn the death of commercial computer architecture at tonight's...
 
Yes, I'll admit it, I fell for Mac marketing too.

But despite the fact that I'm trying to uncover the Mac user's pysche here, and it may seem that I'm trying to make them look like they all need meds, I DO miss that feeling. It's funny, really, but when we look at the Mac OS and the way it evolved over the years, to end up being the OS X it is today, I KNOW what was up with me all those years. I KNOW the kind of "drug" I was on.

It was the OS. Yes, for some strange reason, the folks at Cuprtino were able to make an OS that for some imperceptible reason, made the user feel at "home." Was it the UI? Was it the apps? Or a combination? The Mac OS just felt more friendly, more inviting, and less "huge" than its Microsoft counterpart. It always seems to have more polish. I didn't notice anything jarring or odd about it. It felt natural.

Now, an OS is just a tool, right? Wel, indeed. Ultimatel,y if you can't get your WORK doen on an OS, it's useless. So what does it matter waht an OS feels like, as long as it gets the job done? From an objective viewpoint, it doesn't matter at all.

But I left Windows XP because I simply wasnt comfortble with it. Certainly, it was dead-easy to use. Got the job done. Accessing apps and files was a breeze. It was a pretty stable product, too. By all rights I shouldn't complain.

It just didn't feel right, though. Maybe my history wirth Macs changed my atttiude in some significant way that would forever alienate me from Windows. It's like shopping for a chair. There's that new, shiny, ergonomic, automatic, wonder-chair on display. Its design is perfect, it looks great. But when you sit in it, it doesn't feel right. And no matter how you turn it, how you adjust it, it still seems all wrong.

So, all of this adulation for an OS that is so mis-marketed to begin with, makes no sense. As long as you can do your work who cares? Right?

Yet you STILL want that little chair with the big cushion that's all the way in the back!

It's irritating. It's the OS. Stupid, stupid, feel-at-home OS.

Now where are those pills . . . . . ;-)
 
jhu said:
i don't know if this has been posted before, but it looks like history might be repeating itself: http://projects.csail.mit.edu/gsb/archives/old/gsb-archive/gsb2001-06-29.html

Three thoughts to make you shudder: - Merced/Irix. - McKinley/HP-UX. - Itanium/VMS.

It has long been said that history repeats itself. It has more recently been mentioned that history is speeding up. But who knew that it had gotten so fast that giant corporations would line up to blow their brains out exactly the same way within three years of one another?

I think it all depends on how you look at it. From my standpoint, NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP and Mac OSX has a larger installed base than ever in it's history and it is growing! You've got realize, OS9 has been dead for years. That is not the heart of today's Macs.

Apple is looking for a dependable chip company, not necessarily an answer to "cut costs". IBM became unreliable so Apple is moving to Intel. Big deal...new chip. We've been through that before with NeXTSTEP on 68k, Openstep on Intel, DEC, SUN, HP and Mac OS X on PPC.

Apple makes incredibly attractive hardware which none of the companies above can say (well, SGI's O2 was pretty cool, but it wasn't one of the Intel machines). And last, Apple has Mac OS X which none of the above listed had.

I don't really see things playing out as you have listed above. Almost all of those companies were trying to compete in a cut throat market of cheap build it yourself machines. You will not be able to build your own Mac (so we hear).

I look forward to the next transition and probably the next few after that. As along as the machines keep getting better and faster and I can keep running Mac OS X, then I am a happy camper! :)
 
chibianh said:
yes.. what IS the beef against Intel? I still haven't gotten a clear answer to that question.

here is your clear answer:

1) there advertising, it freaking pisses you off with the stupid jingle especially centrino where they make out like they invented wireless.

2)there architecture, x86 is ancient and slow per $ of R&D, ppc is cheaper and more efficient

3) intel seems to pay no attention to overall speed just clock speed to sell as a big number to consumers

no. 3 has allowed AMD and the powerpc to compete against the giant that is intel, and now with the pentium M this seems to be changing for the better and this also correlates with how apple is going to adopt intel chips, first at the low end with pentium M cpu's in ibooks powerbooks mac mini's and emacs, and then in the high end latter on with xserves and powermacs, this is because the desktop pentium M wont be out for a long while and apple dose not want to use the hot slow netburst architecture.
 
skellener said:
I think it all depends on how you look at it. From my standpoint, NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP and Mac OSX has a larger installed base than ever in it's history and it is growing! You've got realize, OS9 has been dead for years. That is not the heart of today's Macs.

Apple is looking for a dependable chip company, not necessarily an answer to "cut costs". IBM became unreliable so Apple is moving to Intel. Big deal...new chip. We've been through that before with NeXTSTEP on 68k, Openstep on Intel, DEC, SUN, HP and Mac OS X on PPC.

Apple makes incredibly attractive hardware which none of the companies above can say (well, SGI's O2 was pretty cool, but it wasn't one of the Intel machines). And last, Apple has Mac OS X which none of the above listed had.

I don't really see things playing out as you have listed above. Almost all of those companies were trying to compete in a cut throat market of cheap build it yourself machines. You will not be able to build your own Mac (so we hear).


I look forward to the next transition and probably the next few after that. As along as the machines keep getting better and faster and I can keep running Mac OS X, then I am a happy camper! :)

deja vu? yes, ibm and compaq back in the early 80s
 
Hector said:
here is your clear answer:

1) there advertising, it freaking pisses you off with the stupid jingle especially centrino where they make out like they invented wireless.

2)there architecture, x86 is ancient and slow per $ of R&D, ppc is cheaper and more efficient

3) intel seems to pay no attention to overall speed just clock speed to sell as a big number to consumers

no. 3 has allowed AMD and the powerpc to compete against the giant that is intel, and now with the pentium M this seems to be changing for the better and this also correlates with how apple is going to adopt intel chips, first at the low end with pentium M cpu's in ibooks powerbooks mac mini's and emacs, and then in the high end latter on with xserves and powermacs, this is because the desktop pentium M wont be out for a long while and apple dose not want to use the hot slow netburst architecture.


speaking of which, i think apple should use itanium in the xserves. intel should be smart enough to be able to make a lower power version of itanium to fit in tight quarters.
 
jhu said:
deja vu? yes, ibm and compaq back in the early 80s
Yeah, but without Mac OS X! Don't even try to compare it to those early 80's OSes.

All of you can keep naysaying all you want. Mac OS X on any chip is still better than any other OS on the planet. :)
 
Hector said:
here is your clear answer:

1) there advertising, it freaking pisses you off with the stupid jingle especially centrino where they make out like they invented wireless.

understood.

2)there architecture, x86 is ancient and slow per $ of R&D, ppc is cheaper and more efficient

anything to back up that statement? I'm not saying I don't disagree, but if x86 is really THAT old and THAT bad, why is AMD still working on it? Why is Intel still working on it? Why aren't they investing in PPC?

3) intel seems to pay no attention to overall speed just clock speed to sell as a big number to consumers

If they pay no attention, why are they switching to pentium m derivatives for their next gen? You even rebutted ur own statement.

no. 3 has allowed AMD and the powerpc to compete against the giant that is intel, and now with the pentium M this seems to be changing for the better and this also correlates with how apple is going to adopt intel chips, first at the low end with pentium M cpu's in ibooks powerbooks mac mini's and emacs, and then in the high end latter on with xserves and powermacs, this is because the desktop pentium M wont be out for a long while and apple dose not want to use the hot slow netburst architecture.[/QUOTE]

Cedar Mill and Conroe are on the roadmap for late 2006. :)

Again, I still don't see a clear answer for the beef against intel... as far as technology is concerned anyway.
 
jhu said:
speaking of which, i think apple should use itanium in the xserves. intel should be smart enough to be able to make a lower power version of itanium to fit in tight quarters.

no, the itanium is overpriced underpowered and completely incompatible, one itanium chip costs about the same as two full xserves.
 
jhu said:
Three thoughts to make you shudder: - Merced/Irix. - McKinley/HP-UX. - Itanium/VMS.

It has long been said that history repeats itself. It has more recently been mentioned that history is speeding up. But who knew that it had gotten so fast that giant corporations would line up to blow their brains out exactly the same way within three years of one another?
Very interesting post. You make some very good points. I think this is why there are lots of longtime Mac users shuddering at this decision. But, I also think that Jobs isn't a sucker, because he's been down this path before. I'm hoping this Universal Binary stuff is a type of insurance -- if this chip doesn't work out, it will be a lot less painful to move all apps to another processor, because it will simply mean recompiling with updated binaries. I don't know exactly how this works, but, this is my impression based on the keynote.

I also believe Intel is not the Goliath it once was because there are more alternatives now. The marketplace is a lot more competitive and it would behoove them to screw over a company that could potentially help them increase their own profits.

We'll just have to wait and see.
 
PPC for games is not the same as PPC for Mac. Once a game design architecture is set on a console, it's done. They don't keep coming out with new faster Playstations or XBOXs every 3 months. Those chips will stand still for up to 5 years.

Now you can argue chip speed and price all you want. This is better than that. The fact is IBM f**cked up. They did not deliver what they promised. Since Apple couldn't get the chips, they went elsewhere. That's all it really comes down to. No big whoop!
 
chibianh said:
understood.



anything to back up that statement? I'm not saying I don't disagree, but if x86 is really THAT old and THAT bad, why is AMD still working on it? Why is Intel still working on it? Why aren't they investing in PPC?



If they pay no attention, why are they switching to pentium derivatives for their next gen? You even rebutted ur own statement.

Cedar Mill and Conroe are on the roadmap for late 2006. :)

Again, I still don't see a clear answer for the beef against intel... as far as technology is concerned anyway.

the scale of money that AMD pumps into there x86 cpu's comnpared to what IBM puts in is proof, the desktop pentium M's are slated for 2007 release i doubt cedar mill and conroe will make it into apples line.

the "beef" is because of intels bureaucracy of MHz over all elce added with the beating of the dead horse that is x86,this is changing for the better but the angst remains, i think intel is keen to jump into bed with apple because they want a platform that will accept a compatibility leap when x86 is layed to rest.

those were the reasons for the "beef" and they remain, intel is changing and thats why apple is switching to them because they have the potential to totaly destroy any other chip in speed because of there resources other chips have kept up through intels bad management, with the powerpc gone RISC is all but dead and x86 will go on untill it's reached it's physical limits without an architectural overhall
 
Why Dual-Boot?

I'm just wondering what is the benefit in being able to dual boot from an Intel-Mac? What is going to be the incentive for game developers and developers of less well-known software companies to develop for Mac? There are already thousands of PC games out their, so why not just go out and buy XP for 200 bucks? Mac game developers are still going to have to support PowerPC for a while too. Anyway, I don't no too much about this, but what are some benefits of a dual-boot Mac?
 
Hector said:
no, the itanium is overpriced underpowered and completely incompatible, one itanium chip costs about the same as two full xserves.

first, that's only because intel prices them that way. if you control the supply, you can make the price whatever you want. it's the same reason why a p4 extreme edition costs $1000.

second, the itanium is defintely not underpowered. chech here: http://www.spec.org/cpu2000/results/res2005q1/

in floating point operations, a 1.3 ghz itanium still trounces a 3.6 ghz p4 by a wide margin.
 
MontyZ said:
Very interesting post. You make some very good points. I think this is why there are lots of longtime Mac users shuddering at this decision. But, I also think that Jobs isn't a sucker, because he's been down this path before. I'm hoping this Universal Binary stuff is a type of insurance -- if this chip doesn't work out, it will be a lot less painful to move all apps to another processor, because it will simply mean recompiling with updated binaries. I don't know exactly how this works, but, this is my impression based on the keynote.

This has been all done before Monty. Quite a few times in fact. Universal Binaries is just a new name. The history of NeXTSTEP is filled with ports to different chips. This is just yet another one. They have it down to a science. To many people out there this is shock and awe! To those of us that have stuck by Steve Jobs, it's just another chapter. :)
 
skellener said:
PPC for games is not the same as PPC for Mac. Once a game design architecture is set on a console, it's done. They don't keep coming out with new faster Playstations or XBOXs every 3 months. Those chips will stand still for up to 5 years.

Now you can argue chip speed and price all you want. This is better than that. The fact is IBM f**cked up. They did not deliver what they promised. Since Apple couldn't get the chips, they went elsewhere. That's all it really comes down to. No big whoop!

actually, it's more likely that steve was planning on going down this road but needed all this time to create the software infrastracture necessary for a smooth transition.
 
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