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tokevino said:
In fact, for raw horsepower, Intel has ran a bit faster than G5 for more than a year now, and Intel's Dual Core Pentium D is just released, too. Further, AMD can make a chip that runs even faster than Intel.



Intel doesn't have production problems. I bet Intel has extra capacity to make the amount that Apple needs. When a company have extra production capacity, why not produce and sell? It's common sense.



The fact is, if Apple doesn't switch today, it will probably die with PPC altogether. PPC is not as good as it used to be, unless it is for a game console...

Well..I mean, Intel and AMD might have CPUs running at faster frequence at this moment, but given IBM's background and technology, IBM might somehow regain the lead in the near future..

Therefore, Apple is making a "sad" move, a move that is forced to make not because it will be promising, but because sticking with PowerPC leads to bad endings.

I'm just sorry that things has to come to this. I don't know what IBM is thinking. First it sold its PC department, because they're not making money; then it lost Apple. It's just sad to see these things happen to a company with such leading technology. I'm also sad to see that the video game market is more important to this company than a Macintosh computer. I hope that this company wake up soon, because I don't think they will be any better if they keep doing things like that..
 
MarkCollette said:
Right, it won't have drivers to work on any arbitrary wintel box, but what about ordering a Dell that specifically uses the same video cards, etc as an Apple x86 box?

It still won't run unless you write your own driver for the chipsets and etc.

Apple educates Mac fans for years that their hardwares "do not require driver." The fact is, every piece of hardware has to have a driver regardless the platform. The reason Apple's hardwares "do not need driver" is because Apple uses limited models of customized hardwares with driver embaded with the OS. So the installation of a driver is always "automatic" and hides behind.

On the other hand, PC world is truely a zoo. You get third party hardwares all the time. A lot of these new hardwares for PeeCee are in massive production after major releases of a particular version of Windows. So no MS-provided driver is included with the Windows installation disc, and people end up "installing" the driver by themselves.

A hacker can probably write a OS X / Intel compatible driver for any hardwares.
 
Either I have the butterflies, or I'm going to vomit.

Ok people... lets step back and CALM DOWN. For those of you who think Steve just betrayed us, or that Apple losing a few cents in stocks means the end of the world, you all need to stop being so dramatic. I'll admit at first, I felt sick to my stomach once I heard about the big switch (and possible said Apple would be dead in a few years because of it), but now I've stepped back and tried to look at the big picture.

First, IBM and Motorola screwed the pooch on this one. I believe that Apple gave them both all the chances in the world to pump out a great product, and they just never followed thru. How many times did we hear about getting some new processor from Freescale (Motorola) or IBM, only got a bit of a speed boost. I admit the G5 is getting there in speed, its just IBM never got that big speed boost that got people excited about their processor like when the G5 was first presented. So much of this switch is their fault.

Next, no matter how much Steve shoves it down our throats, the transition will not be as easy as he says. This Rosetta technology looks impressive, but with Intel's register starved architecture, there is now way it will be "fast enough" for all applications. I'd like to see a demo of an application that does some big time crunching, something like VLC or Photoshop doing something more than just an emboss filter. Yes I realize that these will probably be ported real soon, but im sure there is some 3D game or other piece of software that will not run as "seamless" as promised. A good example could be the altivec enabled programs. I'd be interested to see some stats on that! I think its funny that the two programs demoed are probably two programs that will already be compiled on the release of the new Intel Macs. All in all though, I think I will be able to deal, considering most applications I use are widely used/actively being developed or are open source. So if worse comes to worst, I can just "Tweak, and recompile" on my own.

This switch can have some big positives though. One is just the shear volume of chips that Intel can produce. Higher volume will equal cheaper prices for the consumer. This is a good thing, but with that comes the inherent problems associated with the Pentium chip. Anyone who has taken an Assembly or Computer Organization/Archetechture course knows that Intel has added "hack" onto "hack" to keep compatible with legacy chips of the past. The whole x86 architecture has a history of being register deprived and a bit clunky to deal with at the lower level. Heck, it is a 'CISC' architecture with a RISC chip inside. Don't get me wrong though, Intel does a great job at making processors, granted they are still dealing some of their mistakes from the past. My question though is if Intel will include that extra layer used to keep legacy compatibility? Sure Tiger is running on a P4 now, but at release I see no need for the new PowerMac Intel chip to be a full Pentium. Now I don't know my Computer Engineering inside and out (I'm a Software Eng., and really think all you Comp. Eng./Low level programmers are nuts ;) ) This may or may not be possible, but maybe a way to appease claims about the x86's inadequacy. I am also skeptical as to how far Intel can really take x86. With all the drive for legacy compatibility, it really add a lot of overhead that could slow things down. I also realize that PPC is better for floating pt and vectors, but lets not panic. We don't know what's in store for Intel in the next few years, they maybe able to catch up(although I do see this as one of the bigger down falls in the switch). Also like someone said, at this moment, Intel is NOT as fast as the G5 or some of AMD's offerings, but honestly at the rate IBM is going, it won't be long till Intel catches up!

Some good things that come with this though is the obvious use for the mobile line. Finally some higher power mobiles. This is a huge plus. Also the Mac will still be a Mac. There won't be Dell's, HP's etc running OSX unless Apple lets them. Sure someone may be able to hack it to work, but I believe people have been able to to that for years on 3rd party PPC boards, but I don't see a many of those! Apple will do its damnedest to keep OSX off of ugly computers (yes, yes this is opinion, but cut me some slack), and I predict, will also try to prevent Windows from running on their pretty machines. Other good things that will come with this are the ability to compile once for plugins for Quicktime, Photoshop, Illustrator etc. This is a good thing! One zip file to download and install, no matter what computer you're using!

The one thing that I have noticed people saying as a good thing is the possibility to run Windows applications through a 'Wine' like interface. THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING IN THE LONG RUN, I REPEAT, NOT A GOOD THING! Sure it will be nice to run a game or some Windows only app, but using a Mac and OS X is about the experience! A Windows app does not fall into the mac experience. I do like the idea of it being easier for software makers to port their software, but I don't want them to forget about the Mac platform and stop developing for it because Windows apps can run just as well. This is where Apple has to shine. If Apple is doing this right they will release XCode/Cocoa for Windows. Imagine if you could develop one application and have it run on both platforms. Have the Windows app work with Windows (ie: menu bar is on the actual Window, Windows buttons perhaps) and have the Mac app work/look like a mac app. This is the inroad to getting switchers. Much like iTunes was a way to give PC users a taste of how a mac works, every mac application could give PC users a taste of a mac, minus one big feature - the great operating system. I realize there are some logistic problems here, but it would be quite doable for many of the apps out there today for the cocoa. As cool as it would be to see a 'Wine' application to run some windows apps, it could spell the end of OSX a la OS/2.

All in all this is a HUGE leap, but I'm just not sure which direction. On one side we give in to the MHz 'myth' but get some higher end portables now. On the other side we get a chip that has some flaws, and maybe not as promising future as the PPC (although PPC is stagnant, I really think it has a better long term future. It is just Intel has done some great things things on a crap architecture, and right now great things on crap is better than doing nothing on something good). Without switch, you don't get low power, high end portables. Which is the right decision? I have no idea, hence the butterflies or projectile vomiting!
 
blitzkrieg79 said:
AMD is not as reliable as Intel, in fact I used a couple of AMD prcessors and wasnt too thrilled with them as I had constant lockups, drives not recognized (bad chipset design)... Intel right now is just a more stable company than IBM (current big time financial trouble) and AMD (their narket gain percentage has cooled off recently) put together...

Since you know so much about AMD processors, tell me which ones you've used and which motherboards...

From Athlon64 on, they've been killing Intel on performance and have excellent stability. Even during the old Athlon days, they were outperforming Intel until they released the P4's which past them up.

Too often people have opinions that are based on old facts. I used to use Macs up to and including OS9. But I don't use that knowledge to judge OSX (which is a UNIX core).
 
MarkCollette said:
Right, it won't have drivers to work on any arbitrary wintel box, but what about ordering a Dell that specifically uses the same video cards, etc as an Apple x86 box?

two days for a good driver writer...code/debug...what's the issue???
 
tokevino said:
A hacker can probably write a OS X / Intel compatible driver for any hardwares.
Last time I checked, writing a driver doesn't exactly mean you are a hacker. Thats such a naughty word.. hacker.
 
admanimal said:
Apple has stated in documentation that there will be no open firmware on Intel Macs.


Correct Macs will still be Mac's running a faster CPU. No OS X for white bx PC... So nope no going out to Best Buy and loading OS X on the newest sony Viao.

So everything is still the same you just have to wrap you brain around the fact that its just a new engine not the whole car.
 
OutThere761 said:
Pfffff....Steve also said that we would have 3.0ghz G5s by last year....and where are we now? Creeping slowly along at 200mhz increments. I would not take Steve's words as the gospel...thinking entirely realistically I doubt we could see Mactels by next year...I think Q1 (maybe 2+) of 2007....

:( Over and over the same questions and statements. I'm ready to leave the thread, but not before saying the same answer that's already been said...

Steve promised 3 GHz G5's because IBM said they would develop them. IBM didn't deliver and has been lagging behind the increasing speed from other developers. That is one of the main reasons Apple decided to switch to Intel. I don't really much believe the roadmap thing either, I think IBM's failure to deliver was the main reason.
 
jared_kipe said:
Last time I checked, writing a driver doesn't exactly mean you are a hacker. Thats such a naughty word.. hacker.

I use "hacker" refer to those people who write codes at hardware level. The "hacker" is not a hacker.
 
maxvamp said:
Just got done digging into the docs for Rosetta and the Mactel machine.

Some notes that should concern everyone:

1.) No classic apps what so ever will run on OS X86

2.) 64-Bit anything is not supported on OS X86. There is no X86-64 support what so ever!!

3.) Rossetta is the equivalent of a G3 (SANS Altivec ), so if it won't run on a G3, then it won't run on X86-32

See this.

Max. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Jesus man, if you're still using OS9 Apps in '07, it's time to let go.
 
slackpacker said:
Correct Macs will still be Mac's running a faster CPU. No OS X for white bx PC... So nope no going out to Best Buy and loading OS X on the newest sony Viao.

So everything is still the same you just have to wrap you brain around the fact that its just a new engine not the whole car.
It isn't just a new engine, its a new engine that requires a different transmission and chassis.
 
nure11 said:
The one thing that I have noticed people saying as a good thing is the possibility to run Windows applications through a 'Wine' like interface. THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING IN THE LONG RUN, I REPEAT, NOT A GOOD THING! Sure it will be nice to run a game or some Windows only app, but using a Mac and OS X is about the experience! A Windows app does not fall into the mac experience.

Good call....it seems akin to running apps in X11 or Classic right now....clunky and really a pain to do. I really don't like the idea of anything being emulated...it puts a big hit on performance (however good the emulator is) and there will, no matter what the situation, be cases in which the emulator mucks up and causes problems that would not happen on a native system. Emulation is something I look at as plan B, not something I want to have to deal with on a daily basis.
 
HelloKitty said:
Well..I mean, Intel and AMD might have CPUs running at faster frequence at this moment, but given IBM's background and technology, IBM might somehow regain the lead in the near future..

Time does not allow it...
 
slackpacker said:
Correct Macs will still be Mac's running a faster CPU. No OS X for white bx PC... So nope no going out to Best Buy and loading OS X on the newest sony Viao.

So everything is still the same you just have to wrap you brain around the fact that its just a new engine not the whole car.
No open firmware presents a interesting variable. It would make the whitebox thing LOADS easier to do. And it would make new graphics cards easier to get. One of these things apple wants, and the other they do not. They could forgo the added security if they have another option though.
 
onlysublime said:
The Pentium M is only competitive with Athlon64 in the notebook sector (and kicks AMD's butt too) and only because it is fast AND power efficient. But compare a Pentium M desktop system with an AMD system and the AMD system just kills. Besides, Intel already said that their dual core Pentium M won't have 64-bit extensions. What the heck??? Put 64-bit extensions in your current desktop line but ignore the up-and-comer dual core Pentium M???

Correct me if i'm wrong but tomshardware recently overclocked a 2.13 Pentium M to 2.5 Ghz and it creamed the the amd fx-55 in most benchmarks. And it was a desktop pentium m used on a pentium 4 motherboard with a pin adapter.

http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20050525/index.html

Intel has by far the best mobile processors right now and Apple realizes that notebooks will account for an increasing fraction of their hardware sales to make this move a very good move. So before bashing intel for their hardware, take another look at the mobile offerings from intel and compare it to amd or ibm...well..
 
oskar said:
:( Over and over the same questions and statements. I'm ready to leave the thread, but not before saying the same answer that's already been said...

Steve promised 3 GHz G5's because IBM said they would develop them. IBM didn't deliver and has been lagging behind the increasing speed from other developers. That is one of the main reasons Apple decided to switch to Intel. I don't really much believe the roadmap thing either, I think IBM's failure to deliver was the main reason.

Alright...so what is there to say that Intel will not fall into the same problems that IBM and Motorola had? If Intel is expected to create a custom chip for Apple it will definitely not receive the same R&D as their other chips, and if they do not, Apple will not be a priority customer in any sense of the word, I just can't see Apple having much sway in the Intel world, and for this I'm sorry that Apple went there in the first place. I think that it culminates to the fact that Steve will always be able to make promises, but the fact is, there are billions of factors that affect whether or not they can come true, I just feel that people who say "Steve said it, it's true" (Steve l'a dit, donc c'est vrai! :p) should think again.
 
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
this is the worst move apple will ever make. steve will realise it in two years when macs have .2% of the market share.
 
rareflares said:
uh, he needs to wait for developers to recompile their software.


Sure, Apple could release an x86 Mac right now but there wouldn't be any of your software on it other than iLife.

Ok, then why not in 4 to 6 months? If it's really as easy to port applications as he says...
 
slackpacker said:
Why do you think in your all knowing knowledge that the New PPC's will be poroblematic.... stop being so negitive... apple is apple nothing has changed other that a speed boost that we will see next year.
I said I thought sales of upcoming PPC-based systems would be problematic. For better or worse, the news of Apple's shift to Intel is widespread, especially among Apple's existing customers. Will it hurt sales of new G5 PowerMacs at the end of this 2005 when that architecture is clearly end-of-life? I expect so. We'll see.
 
OutThere761 said:
The question here is: are they going to use some ****** ass BIOS that crashes and breaks the motherboard (seen it happen many a time), or are they going to do away with a configurable boot system like that?

what people miss is the beauty of mac os...while for years MAC had true plug and play...it took MS years to do it and it still doesn't work right...MAC OS will still install all the drivers for your hardware be it PPC or INTEL...they will still recognize all your hardware be it PPC or INTEL....they are still years
ahead in OS design...IMO
 
MarkCollette said:
Ok, then why not in 4 to 6 months? If it's really as easy to port applications as he says...

To be honest, I can't see the major software companies being organized enough to get their game together and re-build their software (however easy it might be to do) fast enough for Apple... :(
 
This is the first day of Apples new double life.

Who wants to bet Apple's new back up plan is to have a fully x86 compatible version of OS X? I think the switch to intel will have a lot of legs but just in case microsoft decides to play dirty, Apple can just release an OS that will run on wintel machines... with a small tweek and a recompile.

A few more things:
Now we know why they stopped having intel bake offs.
How many os up dates will it take for apple to stop supporting PPC?
Will Macintel photoshop run faster than wintel photoshop?
What about dual processors?
 
OutThere761 said:
Alright...so what is there to say that Intel will not fall into the same problems that IBM and Motorola had?

Should Intel fall, there is a company called Advanced Micro Device, who has already made a faster desktop chip than Intel does...
 
MarkCollette said:
Right, it won't have drivers to work on any arbitrary wintel box, but what about ordering a Dell that specifically uses the same video cards, etc as an Apple x86 box?

What about the umpteen drivers that are needed for the MB?
 
Razor1999 said:
Correct me if i'm wrong but tomshardware recently overclocked a 2.13 Pentium M to 2.5 Ghz and it creamed the the amd fx-55 in most benchmarks. And it was a desktop pentium m used on a pentium 4 motherboard with a pin adapter.

http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20050525/index.html

Intel has by far the best mobile processors right now and Apple realizes that notebooks will account for an increasing fraction of their hardware sales to make this move a very good move. So before bashing intel for their hardware, take another look at the mobile offerings from intel and compare it to amd or ibm...well..

Very true, the Pentium M is at LEAST as good as a G4 clock for clock, and look how fast they are getting. When was the last time you saw a G4 at over 2GHz while still exhibiting the same thermal charictaristics we see from the P-M?
 
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