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jhu said:
i have to disagree. mhz isn't everything. amd has proven that to the masses, and they're "only" at 2.6 ghz. if jobs wanted the fastest processor, he should have gone with itanium or try to acquire alpha. besides, the next big thing in processors is multicore. apple's probably waiting for a 64-bit version of yonah.
How long before we see Apple ads using the megahertz myth (should be called the gigahertz myth) to boast that the GHz rating of the latest Mac on Intel processor is higher than some system that relies on the latest PowerPC 9xx chip? Maybe Apple's marketing department will be happy to play the GHz card now that they are on the other side of the fence.

Seriously, I doubt we'll see this. Apple likes to play up their systems' benefits, but they often inject a little bit of honesty where others are happy to mislead, such as when Apple measured monitor sizes by the usable space while PCs were being sold with the same monitors but described as being an inch bigger.
 
jhu said:
i have to disagree. mhz isn't everything. amd has proven that to the masses, and they're "only" at 2.6 ghz.

I agree with you that mhz isn't everything and certainly not the overwhelming reason for this switch but amd hasn't proven anything except to nerds and technofetishists who actually follow this stuff. Most people don't know processors period let alone the benefits and advantages of an AMD over an Intel
 
jhu said:
i have to disagree. mhz isn't everything. amd has proven that to the masses, and they're "only" at 2.6 ghz. if jobs wanted the fastest processor, he should have gone with itanium or try to acquire alpha. besides, the next big thing in processors is multicore. apple's probably waiting for a 64-bit version of yonah.

Exactly, Yonah. The next generation of PC chips. I'm talking about 2006, not 2003. This is a good move at the right time.

Do you think Apple would survive another year of speed bumping the G5??
 
MontyZ said:
I only moved from OS9 to OSX about 7 months ago. I could have easily continued using OS9 had I not wanted to upgrade to newer versions of some software. Lot's of companies with Macs are still using OS9. I worked at a large int'l ad agency last year and they were still using OS9 and Photoshop 6!
Why? That seems strange.

A very small percentage (less than 10%) of Macs are still using OS 9. I'm not saying that people need to stop using something they like and want to use. I still have a Mac Plus and a Mac IIci running System 7, yet there is no support from Apple for System 7 and I don't expect any. People can use whatever system set-up they want to use, just don't expect support for out-dated systems. People using Apple ][ computers cannot expect any support from Apple. Likewise OS 9 is old and out-dated, beyond the age of a supported product.
 
alep85 said:
Well, they will be x86, as the dev kits are Pentium's. My only sorrow is that apparently Apple is abandoning 64-bit support with this move, hopefully the new Pentium's with EMT64 support will fix this and come out with the new Macs. I doubt they will be making a new chip as this would be proprietary again, and I believe one of their reasons for doing this is using a mass-produced chip to cut costs.

Let's hope that it's something better than EM64T. That chip is a nasty kludge. :mad:
 
Perhaps SSE, etc.

Another issue I have that I find strange is that I can find no article on the web that says the X86 CPUs are better than PowerPC, in fact I find just the opposite. All tend to say that X86 has reached a pinnacle, and PowerPC is ready to leap foward. I found a good article at arstechnica that says the X86 code is far from dead, it will just evolve basically into somthing else as we have already seen with AMD and Transmeta by using software and or onchip hardware like SSE and so on. http://arstechnica.com/cpu/2q00/x86future/isa-future-1.html.

Also another good but older article about CPUs that even has the old DEC Alpha 64bit discussed and I know that was a fast and awesome CPU as a friend used a Raptor/Amiga station with Lightwave 3D and it was awesome some 10 years ago. http://www.aceshardware.com/Spades/read.php?article_id=50.

I guess I just think this is a step backwards as far as technology is concerned. As far as marketing, its a great move. Easy ports of X86 software, native speed emulation of windows, etc...:) I love this board, lots of smart folks here to keep me thinking...:)
 
Read this, some scary stuff, particularly about games.

- OSX on Intel likely to increase port times, as optimizing needs to be done twice.

- Developers already talking about how long they'll need to support PowerPC, because of the above.

- They're also worries companies won't pay for a game port when the PC version will run, either by dual booting or by some kind of virtual machine - on Intel Macs unmodified.

:eek:
 
anynigma said:
There was a rumor on apple insider that was more recently removed that made reference to the P4 rig that Jobs used in the keynote. Some developers suspected that it was using FOUR p4's to run those programs at close to G5 speeds. Also, the developer's boxes are not to be discussed, moved, or modified when they arrive in the hands of the developers. I would guess that this means Rosetta is not ready to be distributed, and is probably why we have to wait a year until the Intel's appear. Also, Jobs may want to wait until the Intel chips reach 64 bit, at least for the powermac and powerbook line derivatives.

As has been stated SEVERAL times, P4 chips WILL NOT run in SMP. Physically impossible. Sorry! Yes, its simple, a single P4 will run OS X at G5 speeds.

Very little steve did in the demo would have been signifigantly changed with a multiprocessor setup anyways.
 
alep85 said:
I doubt they will be making a new chip as this would be proprietary again, and I believe one of their reasons for doing this is using a mass-produced chip to cut costs.
I'll bet they will be using a new chip! The main reason for doing all this is because IBM couldn't supply the chips, Intel can. Not to cut costs but to simply get chips they need in the first place!
 
I'm glad Apple is abandoning IBM in favor of progress, but I still think I'd feel better if Apple had a proprietary chip with Intel. With all this talk of easy porting of x86 apps, I shudder to think of all the virus writers/propagators that are currently licking their chops. I mean really, one of the things I like most about my mac is walking into a room full of PC users complaining about viruses and spyware and breathing a sigh of relief that I don't have to deal with that.
 
coyoteshawn said:
I found a good article at arstechnica...
The same arstechnica that was reporting this morning about a Quad Pentium set up for Steve's demo which turned out to be 100% false?
 
vaslav said:
A non-profit arts organization that I know in Portland still uses many Macs running OS 9. The reason they haven't switched is $$$.

Apple needs to implement a non-profit discount program (like some PC manufacturers) to help these type of businesses upgrade their hardware and operating systems.
Oh that's crap. What kind of business model is that? Why does everyone want something for free from Apple? Hell, GM is a much, much bigger cash cow, yet no one is suggesting a non-profit discount upgrade program for Chevrolet owners. I'd sure like to trade in a 1974 Chevy Luv for a brand new Chevy Avalanche or Cadillac Escalade. Think GM will go for that and hook me up?

Heck, if someone cannot upgrade to the latest car, motorcycle, TV, satellite radio, telephone system, computer, etc., then that is no fault of the manufacture. That is all on that person. I don't see why a manufacturer should have a non-profit program to help DTP and ad agency businesses upgrade their hardware and operating systems.

Maybe an upgrade deal was reasonable when OS X was first released. As I remember, Apple did offer some upgrade to OS X for free deals, even for Jaguar in 2003, yet that should not be expected. Five years down the road is too long to expect an upgrade deal.
 
sacear said:
Hell, GM is a much, much bigger cash cow, yet no one is suggesting a non-profit discount upgrade program for Chevrolet owners. I'd sure like to trade in a 1974 Chevy Luv for a brand new Chevy Avalanche or Cadillac Escalade. Think GM will go for that and hook me up?

Come on now.


Comparing Macs to Chevys?! You should at least go with a porsche.
 
sacear said:
Oh that's crap. What kind of business model is that? Why does everyone want something for free from Apple? Hell, GM is a much, much bigger cash cow, yet no one is suggesting a non-profit discount upgrade program for Chevrolet owners. I'd sure like to trade in a 1974 Chevy Luv for a brand new Chevy Avalanche or Cadillac Escalade. Think GM will go for that and hook me up?

Heck, if you cannot upgrade to the latest car, motorcycle, TV, satellite radio, telephone system, computer, etc., then that is no fault of the manufacture. That is all on you.

Maybe an upgrade deal was reasonable when OS X was first released. As I remember, Apple did offer some upgrade to OS X for free deals, even for Jaguar in 2003, yet that should not be expected. Five years down the road is too long to expect an upgrade deal.

He was talking about non-profits, you know in the same way that Apple gives discounts to federal and education markets.
 
Lynxpro said:
The ST and the Amiga both had two-button mice in 1985.
OMG, who cares about two-button mice? That is not the factor of a good or bad computer.
 
Kobushi said:
Come on now.


Comparing Macs to Chevys?! You should at least go with a porsche.
Porsche is not a big enough cash cow for my illustration. ;)

But, yes, as a product quality comparison Apple is more like Porsche, BMW, Land Rover, etc. :D
 
Doctor Q said:
Same here, including mention of the fact that developers not using Xcode will have to migrate if they want to stay in the fold.

In fairness, at least Apple has been trying for some time to move everyone to Xcode. I've a lot of sympathy for Metroworks though, they've served the Mac more than most companies.
 
That seems bad at first...:(

whooleytoo said:
Read this, some scary stuff, particularly about games.

- OSX on Intel likely to increase port times, as optimizing needs to be done twice.

- Developers already talking about how long they'll need to support PowerPC, because of the above.

- They're also worries companies won't pay for a game port when the PC version will run, either by dual booting or by some kind of virtual machine - on Intel Macs unmodified.

:eek:

I still do not see why they would not port over to Mac OSX if it already is X86 code. I understand what they all seem to be pointing at in the article but we have Mac specific games companies that will be able to do alot more in less time for us that play mac games. The Pro apps I don't not think this an issue with. As far as DirectX goes, perhaps Apple will use that in the future as a way to boost games companies to write games. You never know. Besides, mac users will demand Mac ready software and if this boosts market share thay will have to listen.
 
whooleytoo said:
Read this, some scary stuff, particularly about games.

- OSX on Intel likely to increase port times, as optimizing needs to be done twice.

- Developers already talking about how long they'll need to support PowerPC, because of the above.

- They're also worries companies won't pay for a game port when the PC version will run, either by dual booting or by some kind of virtual machine - on Intel Macs unmodified.

:eek:

I think games on a PC/MAC just don't have a market anymore. When you can buy a dedicted gaming console for 200 bucks why will you play them on your computer? Heck, if I was a developer I would develop only for consoles, why even bother with home computers.
 
eVolcre said:
I think games on a PC/MAC just don't have a market anymore. When you can buy a dedicted gaming console for 200 bucks why will you play them on your computer? Heck, if I was a developer I would develop only for consoles, why even bother with home computers.

Because you can do things on a computer that you could never do on a console. Tons of games could never be done properly on a console and there is a market for computer games.
 
First post here, so let me introduce a bit: I'm a developer, mostly C++ for various OS (Unix, Linux, Apple, Windows - whatever, often cross platform) - been at it for over 25 years.

That said, I'll risk a bit of a rant on this topic. So many posts, it's tough to read the entire thread when you're busy - and I type fast, and since I know my stuff, I tend to expound.

When the choice to base OS X on Unix was made, there is now doubt that among many fine lines of reasoning, portability was at least one main point. The Unix inside OS X opened up options, and options is what Jobs must have considered, even 5 or 6 years ago.

I've skimmed past a bunch of Intel negative posts here, and most nod a postive thought toward AMD by comparison, but the PowerPC chip, as monsterously wonderful as the design is (even the earlier versions), the implementation of that design never really delivered as much benefit as it seemed it should. I remember my first look at the assembler potential; all those registers, all that power, and yet - so many obsticles remained in the way toward really significant performance dividends.

Like all comparisons of performance between chips, there are things the PowerPC does better than P4, and there are things the P4 does better than the PowerPC. AMD jumps in with some serious advantages over both, with yet another set of roadblocks that keep them from overpowering either of these by generous factors in all regards. In other words, it's like comparing three engines, each with 400, 410 and 425 horsepower, different ranges of torque and efficiency. They're all capable; what translates into results depends on implementation, like the weight of the final vehicle, the stability of the thing where the rubber hits the road - even the impact of air over the contour of the outer skin.

Don't kid yourself into thinking OS X is superior in all manners here. There's LOTS going for it, but for one, the thread implementations suck a huge power drain out of it when aimed at server applications (see Anandtech's review for info on this point).

Now, the Unix interior of the OS was the best possible choice Jobs and Co could have made, in my opinion. No other core has the track record for solidity and performance. They instantly inherited years of superiority over Windows. They still have some work to do, though - plenty of room for improvement even if they stopped advancement the GUI.

The implication of the x86 in all this is nearly meaningless. Jobs demonstrated an OSX x86 at the presentation Monday, and intimated that x86 builds have been made all along. As a developer of cross platform code myself, I can assure you that many if not most of the best Apple applications will port to x86 without much hassle or impact.

As to the notion that floating point comparisons between PowerPC and P4 are of some concern, well - there's two points on that. First, SSE2 does use non-standard floating point rounding logic - it's been an issue for some rare applications before. In some cases, especially 3d rendering, but perhaps some Photoshop, an SSE2 optimized version can produce slightly different results. This isn't very noticable in single images, but in a rendering of 3d animation, it can make for some very odd results where particle systems don't "match up" between frames. One most have an "all SSE2" or "no SSE2" rendering farm to make things mate just right.

However, beyond that point, there's little impact other than speed. Speed, of course, is of considerable issue, but to that end I doubt Intel will sit idle. They have plenty of room for improvement, and compilers are generally at the heart of using chip features. In rare cases, optimized assembler may be have been used on PowerPC applications, but even that is localized in competent development work, such that keeping it updated isn't a huge task.

It was reported that Mathmatica ported without effort. I'll bet $50 Photoshop is already set. I can't imagine Jobs would have left out portability consideration for all internal Apple products on OS X.

I seriously expect that anyone purchasing an x86 based Mac will, especially by the time one is available, hardly notice anything has changed.

Much has been made about device drivers, but I don't expect this will pose nearly the challenge that moving from OS9 to OSX posed. There may be occasional 'endian' issues in some cases, but for the most part the CPU is not going to be the central problem, unless the driver is entirely or largely written in assembler (something often avoided in Unix systems).

Anyway - no matter what you may have thought about the PowerPC, it's just a bunch of switches, and so is the P4. It's never been the sacred heart of anything. That has always been the OS, the applications and the standards of metaphores in the user interface. The chip has been all but irrelavent all that time. If that were not true, Mac wouldn't have continued to be Mac as the chips transformed one to the next.

Every part of the "personality" of the operating systems, be it Unix, Windows, Mac or other, has little or nothing to do with the CPU executing it. Even the viruses that currently attack the operating system, though somewhat more intimately tied to the CPU's own language and method of operation, direct most of their attention to the OS or an application running within it.

Likewise, the range of applications which give the Mac platform guts is entirely dependent on designs which have much more to do with the minds of the people who make them, than with the language of the CPU.

So, too, it is with the hardware overall. The CPU demands certain things of it's support chips, of course, but the character of the hardware - it's options, it's support for various standards, buses, memory - are all the result of designers taking advantage of options open to them, and choosing compromises in favor of one thing or another. While the CPU and it's supporting chipset provide you with options for PCIe or AGP, built in Firewire or USB, IDE, SATA or SCSI, it is the designer's choices that put those things there, aimed at pricing some product toward low end, medium, high end, workstations, servers or whatever. In this manner, Apple will remain Apple - and true to form, you'll get exactly what you've expected from previous offerings; tight integration of those components way over and above what the standard Wintel platforms have offered - all chosen as compromises among the various options available to them from the P4's various chipsets and standards (including what Apple may have designed themselves), and implemented according the personality of the guiding hands at Apple.

There will be nothing "Windows" like about an x86 Apple, unless you boot Windows on the machine. Of that I'm absolutely certain, unless of course Jobs dies or leaves the company before it's all implemented.

Then....what happens if P4's future plans don't quite live up to Jobs expectations? Consider the shudder going through Intel execs to read the headline "Apple considers AMD." Even if the volume doesn't warrant it, the promotional aspect of Apple x86 will have them flogging the engineers day and night to keep that from happening. And what does that mean? The motivation for competition against AMD will be stronger than ever, and AMD's reply will be stronger than ever. Considering the recent history in that regard, this is great news for everyone.

We will, one day, not too far off I think, have the delightful option of considering a 64 core workstation. Our choice will hinge on "Apple or Non-Apple" versions, depending on whether or not we want the OS X. It's up to Apple and it's public as to just how popular the "Apple" option will become to consumers.

...and now a word about misc. things I noticed on the way to page 90....


Shared video memory is a "low end" design option you'll probably NEVER see in an Apple. It's just not in Job's personality to cripple the graphics.

Despite words to the contrary, Windows 2000 and Windows XP can be stable running platforms. The interior of the operating system is uglier than my 4th grade teacher (which is saying something). However, my own dual AMD XP box runs for weeks - as in months - without crashing or encountering problems. I am, however, a knowledgeable user - and I keep it running that way by updating AVG, Adaware, and avoiding stupid mistakes which I know well from years of experience. Most users don't have that knowledge, and so their machines are riddled with nonsense that cripple and crashes their machines. It's not that I care to defend Windows - I'd rather use Unix, a long time preference of mine that dates back to 1979 for me. As a developer, though, I can't argue with 90%+ client base - so I have Windows in various flavors for testing and debugging....and, I simply don't want an errant assumption to go on without some minor correction - it's not inherent that Windows XP must be unstable; it's just not as simple to keep it that way for novice level users than it is on an Apple (which is, obviously, a plus for the Apple). However, since that point simply has never translated into increased market share, OS X is not the mainstay application target for most developers at present. I doubt the x86 build of OS X will change that.
 
Pentium 4s have never, do not currently and will not ever run in multiple CPU configurations. You can get Pentium 4s with dual cores, but that's not the same thing.

Actually it is. The Pentium D is not a true Dual core - it's a multichip module. Or an MCM. It's exactly like two pentiums with respect to how they share the bus and cache.

The AMD X2 OTOH is a true dual core and much more elegant chip. It's also much faster. Both are much faster then those G5's though.

Pete
 
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