Macintosh Portable Zip Drive Compatibility

Discussion in 'Apple Collectors' started by Maul485, Oct 1, 2014.

  1. Maul485 macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #1
    I did a small amount of surfing around the forums looking for info beforehand but didn't find much.
    I'm wondering if anyone has ever used a zip drive on a Macintosh Portable, and if so, they'd be willing to help me get a zip drive working with mine.

    I came across a z250s at a Goodwill and figured 10 bucks was worth giving it a shot.
    I bought some 250MB zip disks from Amazon (probably should have went with 100mb disks) and a 25 pin male/male cable that fits both the drive and the portable; whether it's a scsi cable or not, I've no clue.

    I got the Iomega Zip Tools from Macintosh Gardens; it says it works for system 7 and my portable has 7.1.

    After following the instructions for hooking it up (power off everything, hook up zip drive, power everything back on, etc.), making sure it was terminated and then starting everything up, the 'Zip Install' software didn't detect any scsi drives and neither did scsi probe.

    After spending quite some time troubleshooting booting with extensions disabled, different scsi ID's (5 or 6), resetting PRAM (I think that's what it was called), etc., I figured that maybe 250mb drives didn't work with system 7, the 250mb disks weren't compatible with system 7 or maybe the cable wasn't actually a scsi cable. I do have two zip 100 m/f scsi cables, but both the ports on the z250s drive and Mac Portable are female, so I need a M/M cable.

    Before spending more money on a zip 100 drive/100mb disks, I'd like to know that it's definitely possible to get them to work with a portable with system 7, or if maybe I'm doing something wrong with the 250mb drive/disks/cable.

    I can easily provide pics if necessary, and any help would/will be appreciated.
     
  2. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

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    #2
    Just a shot in the dark, as I don't have any specific experience with either of those devices, but did you terminate the SCSI chain?

    Some devices have a built-in terminator that's turned on or off by a switch on the of the devices. If this isn't present, you need to use an external terminator, which is(usually) dongle that you attach to the other port on the device.
     
  3. MacTech68, Oct 1, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014

    MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #3
    Theoretically it should be possible.

    The following page shows you how to set the SCSI ID and termination:

    http://www.iomega.com/support/manuals/zip2s/scsi_guide.html#scsiid

    The first problem I can see is whether the driver in the MacOS supports the Zip250.

    To be clear, there are two generations of Iomega driver installs.

    Iomega Tools:

    This is the first generation supported 100MB Zip drives, Bernouli drives and Jazz drives.

    IomegaWare:

    The second generation. The version numbering is restarted at v1 again but the actual driver extension version continues from v6 onward.

    The problem may be at what version the ZIP250 began to be supported by the driver. You may be able to use generic drivers to get the drive to function BUT, the way ZIP drives track bad sectors is handled by the ZIP driver and may produce read/write errors if the ZIP driver is not used.

    From what I can see, you need the early release of IomegaWare for a Zip250SCSI to get older system support. The first release non-beta version was v1.1.3. Later support documents recommend v 2.1.1 for system 7.5 to 8.1.

    So, by the looks of the documentation, for a Zip250 SCSI.

    IomegaWare v1.1.3 supports System 7 to 8.1

    IomegaWare v2.1.1 supports System 7.5.5 to 8.6

    Of course, this is just reading the documentation after installing the various packages on SheepShaver. I don't have the hardware to test the theory. :(
     
  4. Maul485, Oct 1, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014

    Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #4
    @Bunnspecial
    Yup; the z250s has a built in terminator and it is toggled 'on'. I did buy an external terminator awhile back, but I haven't seen it since 2011 and have no clue where it might be.


    First off, thanks for the info and the link to Iomegaware v1.1.3; I appreciate it quite a bit.

    I've spent the better part of four hours trying to get it transfered to my Portable.
    I installed Mini vMac and used HFV Explorer to transfer iomegaware 1.1.3 to a DSK image and then opened it in Mini vMac. I then transfered stuffit lite 3.5 on both my Portable and in mini Vmac, so I can segment the file(s) and transfer them by floppy (and have tested doing so).

    However, once transferred to my Portable and re-segmented, neither stuffit expander lite 3.5, stuffit expander 3.5 or expander 4.0 would recognize it.

    I THEN realized that the file has an HQX extension (iomegaware v1.1.3.sit.hqx), but when downloading it with Firefox the extension disappeared. I then tried downloading it with Internet Explorer instead and the extension was intact, but when transferring it to Mini vMac with HFV Explorer the extension disappeared again. I tried HQXer 1.1 anyway, which I already had installed on my Portable, but it just stayed at a screen saying "Searching iomega v1.1.3.sit...".
    So I installed HQXer in Mini VMac to expand it there, but it has the same problem there, too ("Searching iomega v1.1.3.sit...").

    Not quite sure what to do now; I've been looking for IomegaWare v1.1.3 everywhere hoping for a version that isn't .hqx, but no luck so far.

    *EDIT*
    When going through the preferences in Stuffit Expander, I noticed that it supports .hqx files :/
    I'm not sure why none of the version I have won't recognize it.

    I came across this, too -> http://www.iomega.com/support/documents/10425.html
    It says that version 1.1.3 is for windows 3; are the drivers interchangeable between windows and mac?
     
  5. Anonymous Freak macrumors 601

    Anonymous Freak

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    #5
    One way to truly verify: put a disk in the Zip drive and power it on BEFORE you power up the Mac. That will have it mount as a "fixed disk" using stock SCSI hard drive protocols (which Mac OS doesn't need drivers for,) rather than the removable disk protocol.

    Then try the SCSI bus scan.

    Of course, one other thing: make sure the Zip drive is actually SCSI, and not a Parallel port Zip drive. It should have the "SCSI logo" on it, just above the port on the back:
    [​IMG]

    Also make sure you're using a SCSI cable, not a serial cable.

    (Sorry if you've already checked these, can't be sure if people posting here are "new to vintage computing" and wouldn't know these, or if they're old hat and had already tried it.)
     
  6. Maul485, Oct 1, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014

    Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #6
    Thanks for the info; I'll try that with every disk I currently have shortly.
    The drive I'm using is definitely scsi (the model number says it is and it has the scsi symbol on the back), but I can't tell if the cable is or not.
    I do have two zip 100 cables that are definitely scsi, but they're male to female; the 250 drive I'm trying to use has a male connector, so I need a male/male cable.

    Definitely throw me in the 'new to vintage computing' category. I've had my Portable for a few years now and a color classic II with a bad hdd since forever, but other than playing games on the portable I really don't know all that much about them. I've read around, but it never hurts to have the basics repeated so you don't forget ^^

    *EDIT*

    No go on any of my zip disks. I'm going to look for a m/m scsi cable online sometime soon.
    Worse comes to worse, I'll probably end up getting a zip100 drive/disks, but I'd like to know for sure whether I have to or not.

    I'm keeping scsi12sd in mind, too, though I'd also need to buy/make a 34/50 pin cable. I'll probably be getting one solely for my Color Classic II at some point, too.

    Floppyemu looks pretty neat-o, too...
     
  7. ElectronGuru macrumors 65816

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    #7
    One of your challenges is that most SCSI cables had a centronics connector on the peripheral end. But Iomega decided to buck this, running the DB25 on its own box, so their cables are smaller. But I don't recall if there is a SCSI specific db25/db25 or if any off the shelf will do. I do recall that their cables were an unusual dark gray.

    SCSI itself is a dark art, with its own issues. Use as short and thick a cable as possible, with no other devices, and try turning off the termination.
     
  8. Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #8
    Alright, I'll try that next. I just ordered a lot of 3 db25/db25 iomega m/m scsi cables on ebay.
    I've also got a HP pavilion with a parallel port to test the cable with a parallel zip drive I have; I'll be doing that in the morning ^^
     
  9. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #9
    I'm perplexed about this too. I've tested downloading the file here, and it decompresses fine, admittedly on MacOS X. I'll see if I can work out what's wrong.

    The installers for Windows & Mac might be the same version numbers but they are different. The manual installed with v1.1.3 for Mac notes MacOS 7 minimum, rather than 7.5.5 which the manual for 2.1.1 notes as a minimum.
     
  10. havokalien macrumors 6502a

    havokalien

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    #10
    scsi

    the scsi init as far as I know needs system 7 or better to run. Its only 34k or so but needs system 7.

    Before that if you have system 6 you basically have to treat the drive like an external hard drive. Using lido or another scsi formatting tool to use it.

    These old scsi zips have been used as replacements to dying hard drive in old compacts but again with the previous requirements.

    If your floppy drive works I could send the init on a disk because newer macs can't make an MFS disk or write to it.

    system 7 with ms dos capabilities could do a PC format and just use stuffit expander to repair the fork after transfer to the portable, but again thats all system 7.

    Good Luck

    ----------

    I didn't cover your post about downloads sorry.

    Your kind of looking at drivers but the terminology is extensions. Again the Iomega tools for mac installs an extension but as far as I know it needs system 7 or better. You don't need tools, just the extension to mount and eject and use the disk. Tools will allow for a program like interface but it just uses the init so its more show than anything.
     
  11. Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #11
    My portable has system 7.1, I believe, and the floppy drive does work.

    I have the Iomega 4.2 zip and guest extensions, but haven't been able to get the drive/disks to work.
    I figured that this was either because the cable I was using might be parallel and not scsi, or maybe that 250mb drives/disks won't work with system 7.

    I bought an ebay lot of 3 Iomega scsi cables to rule out the cable before giving up on the drive/disks.

    Using a parallel 250 zip drive I own I tested the disks on a HP Pavilion with Windows XP and a parallel port.
    All the disks were formatted for PC and seem to work fine.

    /-*+/-*+/-*+/-*+/-*+/-*+/-*+/-*+/-*+/-*+/-*+/

    @Mactech68; Do you happen to have any experience with HFV Explorer? If so, could you put the decompressed Iomegaware v1.1.3 file(s) into a DSK image and upload it somewhere?
    Then I could drag/drop it into Mini vMac, use stuffit lite to segment it and transfer it to my portable that way.
     
  12. MacTech68, Oct 3, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014

    MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #12
    No. But from what I can tell, this might be what you want:

    EDIT: Note new link

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20e35yoeh3ibg3y/AAABZxoexSO11c86TqnoxB4Ca?dl=0
     
  13. Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #13
  14. Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #14
    Well, this is weird.

    The IOM_W_113.dsk.zip unzipped and mounted in Mini vMac, no problem.
    I used Stuffit Lite to segment the file and transferred it to my portable where I joined the files together again (with Stuffit Lite on a floppy).
    Some form of error occurred right when it finished, causing me to have to reset.

    When I booted it back up, the joined file was sitting there on my desktop; I tried opening it, but it said the program used to create it couldn't be found.
    I figured it didn't join properly, so I copied stuffit lite from the floppy to the hard disk and deleted the unusable file.
    However, when I tried joining the files again Stuffit said I didn't have enough disk space.
    I checked my available disk space and realized the 5-6mb that made up the failed-joined file wasn't given back after I emptied the trash.

    I started off the process with about 13.4MB and After deleting the failed file and the segmented files I had 7.4 (if I remember correctly; definitely 7.something).

    I decided to ignore it for now, went into Mini vMac, installed the file there and just copied the Iomega Driver from the extension folder and transferred it to my portable via floppy.

    In the end, I DID get the extension onto my Mac Portable, but I'm still missing that 6-ish megabytes of data :(
    I checked the HDD with disk doctor, and it said problems were found but couldn't be repaired because it was the start-up disk.
     
  15. MacTech68, Oct 4, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014

    MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #15
  16. Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #16
    Alright, I'll do that later today.
    Should I go through all my floppies and back everything up first, or will it leave all the files untouched?
     
  17. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #17
    Well, there is always a risk. Norton fixes on the fly, so it performs modifications to directory structure and hence, files.

    Whilst painful, yes, a backup is worthwhile if you have programs and components you can't easily replace/re-install.
     
  18. Maul485, Oct 5, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014

    Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #18
    I've downloaded and transferred Norton Utilities 3.2.1 over to both Mini vMac and my portable and extracted it. However, Disc Copy 4.2 won't recognise the emergency disc image and shrinkwrap 2.1 says "Shrinkwrap was unable to find a necessary resource to complete this operation. error# -192"

    *EDIT*
    I'm downloading and giving disk tools 7.1 a go; my 7.1 Disk Tools floppy for my color classic doesn't want to work; my assumption is because of the system enabler.

    *EDIT*
    Nope; the Disk Tools 7.1 .img file isn't being recognized by Disc Copy 4.2 and is getting the same error in Shrinkwrap.
     
  19. Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #19
    I finally managed to get that 5.2MB of data back.

    I woke up this morning and thought, 'OMG, what the heck was I doing?'
    I booted up the portable, copied the System and Finder files from the System Folder to a floppy, then copied over Disc Doctor.

    Booted from the floppy, tested/repaired the HDD and got that missing data back in no time.


    The scsi cables I ordered should arrive in the mail tomorrow and I can continue to test the 250 zip drive then.
     
  20. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

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  21. Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #21
    Thanks for crossing your fingers, MacTech; it seems to have worked :D

    Using one of the scsi cables I got in the mail today I hooked everything up in order and booted my portable.
    I inserted a 250mb zip disk and it instantly showed up, said it was an unknown format and I initialized it.

    I've attached two images to this post; one showing the zip disk on the desktop and the other showing the zip drive in scsi probe.

    I was originally worried that a 250 drive/disk wouldn't work in system 7 because I couldn't find anyone that said that they would; in the end it all worked out, though.

    I removed the Iomega 1.1.3 extension from the extensions folder and rebooted to test it; although the drive still showed up in scsi probe, the zip discs wouldn't show on the desktop when inserted.
    The IomegaWare v1.1.3 extension is compatible with/allows compatibility for 250MB drives/disks under system 7(.1).

    I've backed up my entire portable HDD and can now use the drive/disks to help get my Color Classic back up and running again.


    Thank you everyone, for all of your help and advice; especially you, MachTech68, for providing the IomegaWare extension.
    All of your help has been very appreciated.
     

    Attached Files:

  22. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

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    #22
    Thanks for going that extra mile to prove if the extension is needed for operation. I knew there was a reason for keeping my old archive of drivers. :)

    One thing I've always recommended with ZIP drives of ANY type. When you erase/reformat Zip disks, use the Iomega Tools program to perform a "format WITH surface verify". This erases the disk AND checks for bad blocks which it can then lock out. If you look at the disk's info in Iomega Tools, you'll see a "format life" and a "disk life". My understanding is that the disk life refers to how full the bad block table is. Once it's full, new bad blocks cannot be avoided and will cause read/write (I/O) errors.

    Enjoy!

    EDIT: Interesting, however, that the icon is for a Zip100. Is the capacity 230MB-ish or 90MB-ish ?
     
  23. Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #23
    Alright, I'll format using Iomega Tools from now on; thanks for he info.

    I noticed the icon as well after uploading the images; the disk's capacity is 230mb-ish.
     
  24. Maul485 thread starter macrumors newbie

    Maul485

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    #24
    Unfortunately IomegaWare zip tools 1.1.3 is causing a system error/unimplemented trap; After trying to start the software the zip tools image/screen shows up for a fraction of a second before the error occurs.

    I tried Zip Tools 4.2 but that doesn't detect the zip drive; my guess being that it predates 250mb drives/disks.
     
  25. havokalien macrumors 6502a

    havokalien

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    #25
    zip 250

    Zip tools 4.2 and that extension do pre date the 250.

    Try using a 100 disk. The drive should not be the issue just the size of the disk. I use a 250 drive but only 100 myself just for that reason.
     

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