macOS Tahoe: A Pattern of Poor Usability and Design Regression

[TumbleDryer]

Does anyone have a reference to Steve Jobs talking about how they chose the window corner curvature? I've read that he made the point that it was a carefully made decision. I wonder if he discussed the psychological trade-offs.

I think he said it in a keynote when launching the iPhone. But he definitely said words to the effect of 'they studied the perfect radius to get everything looking and feeling right'. Since then (and after he died) Apple have changed the radius twice now.

 

[fisherking]

I think he said it in a keynote when launching the iPhone. But he definitely said words to the effect of 'they studied the perfect radius to get everything looking and feeling right'. Since then (and after he died) Apple have changed the radius twice now.

and why not? tech moves forward (and, to be fair, not always for the best). but there's no finite point where people stop innovating, trying new things. am glad for that.

 

[Kal Madda]

and why not? tech moves forward (and, to be fair, not always for the best). but there's no finite point where people stop innovating, trying new things. am glad for that.

Yeah, and clearly that was marketing speech. There’s no such thing as the “perfect corner radius”… They decided on an “ideal” corner radius for then, the software design from then, and what they thought looked visually appealing then.

 

[CrabQueenInc]

yes, in Mail. still not getting how the toolbar in Pages showing 'icons & text' adds 'another layer of obscurity'? how so?

Well, Mail was but an example.

Hopefully we can agree that one of the key points of Tahoe’s UI is that control bars, if not most elements of the UI, allow for content below to show through. I perhaps should have specified that I was using Pages to speak more broadly about Tahoe’s UI. Still, what I meant by obscuring is that the blending of UI text elements with the content underneath creates overlap that can make the UI text difficult to parse, thus adding a layer of obscurity to the UI. The text that was previously helpful becomes an hinderance in addition to the buttons.

However, I appreciate that you likely won’t share this opinion, and that other users are not bothered by these changes.

 

[svenmany]

and why not? tech moves forward (and, to be fair, not always for the best). but there's no finite point where people stop innovating, trying new things. am glad for that.

He was just answering my question and adding a bit more information.

 

[Minghold]

I have never in my decade and a half of using macOS skipped a release. I might have waited to .1 or .2, but never outright refused to upgrade.

macOS 26 proves there’s first time for everything.

(lol) ...The only safe OS is the one that the OEM has stopped updating. (I.e., Ventura is now safe to use. ...maybe.)

 

[TumbleDryer]

...

I believe it was iOS7 (and possibly iOS18) and now OS27 when they changed the radius of stuff. If you recall there was a bit of a huff about it when iOS7 came out and they made them bigger (mainly app icons). Now in OS27 they doubled down and made them even bigger and more ubiquitous so obviously there's even more noise about it now.

As an addendum I updated Transmission app yesterday. It now sports Liquid Glass. For YEARS I have had the app set at a particular width and position on my screen. Now with Liquid Glass and all the rounded goodness. Not all the menubar buttons fit on the window at the same width anymore. They are hidden behind a 'more' button. That's a very clear example of how all the extra fluff is taking up extra space on screen. I now have to make the window larger if I want to see everything as before. Its a small thing, but its a regression happening over and over and many little regressions add up to one big step backwards in performance and efficiency.

 

[fisherking]

I believe it was iOS7 (and possibly iOS18) and now OS27 when they changed the radius of stuff. If you recall there was a bit of a huff about it when iOS7 came out and they made them bigger (mainly app icons). Now in OS27 they doubled down and made them even bigger and more ubiquitous so obviously there's even more noise about it now.

As an addendum I updated Transmission app yesterday. It now sports Liquid Glass. For YEARS I have had the app set at a particular width and position on my screen. Now with Liquid Glass and all the rounded goodness. Not all the menubar buttons fit on the window at the same width anymore. They are hidden behind a 'more' button. That's a very clear example of how all the extra fluff is taking up extra space on screen. I now have to make the window larger if I want to see everything as before. Its a small thing, but its a regression happening over and over and many little regressions add up to one big step backwards in performance and efficiency.

c'mon now. transmission is up-to-date here, and my window looks exactly the same as it has for a long time. plus... if you click on those arrows, you can make the window a little larger.

anyway, in my humble opinion, this is the non-issue of the day 🙄

 

[TumbleDryer]

c'mon now. transmission is up-to-date here, and my window looks exactly the same as it has for a long time. plus... if you click on those arrows, you can make the window a little larger.

anyway, in my humble opinion, this is the non-issue of the day 🙄

All I’m doing is pointing out the new design requires more space to achieve the same result as the previous design. I clearly said it’s not a big issue in itself. But when working with many windows and each requiring more and more space we are losing working area for the sake of a needless effect. This makes using a Mac less efficient for no gain.

 

[Kal Madda]

All I’m doing is pointing out the new design requires more space to achieve the same result as the previous design. I clearly said it’s not a big issue in itself. But when working with many windows and each requiring more and more space we are losing working area for the sake of a needless effect. This makes using a Mac less efficient for no gain.

I disagree… 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[fisherking]

All I’m doing is pointing out the new design requires more space to achieve the same result as the previous design. I clearly said it’s not a big issue in itself. But when working with many windows and each requiring more and more space we are losing working area for the sake of a needless effect. This makes using a Mac less efficient for no gain.

hmmm. how much bigger (for example) does the transmission window need to be? and how many open windows do you look at at the same time?

still think this is a non-issue (but i respect that others see it differently) 🤷

 

[tkermit]

The iTunes mini player used to be way more space-efficient, too.

 

[Kal Madda]

The iTunes mini player used to be way more space-efficient, too.

View attachment 2600407

I like the newer version better. It shows the cover art for the music as well, and looks more like a widget, which is nice. Love that music controller on my iPhone Lock Screen as well! 👍🏻

 

[Sniper08]

I like the newer version better. It shows the cover art for the music as well, and looks more like a widget, which is nice. Love that music controller on my iPhone Lock Screen as well! 👍🏻

Do you comprehend that Kermit and Tumbledryer are demonstrating that the UI takes more space for the same utility, not the aesthetic quality of it?

 

[fisherking]

The iTunes mini player used to be way more space-efficient, too.

View attachment 2600407

a beautiful example of positive forward motion (unless, i guess, your monitor is 7")...

 

[nebojsak]

The iTunes mini player used to be way more space-efficient, too.

View attachment 2600407

Some would say it used to be too busy and overcrowded. Also, displays are much bigger nowadays.

 

[Kal Madda]

Do you comprehend that Kermit and Tumbledryer are demonstrating that the UI takes more space for the same utility, not the aesthetic quality of it?

Why should I care if the music control utility takes up slightly more screen space? I can move it off the screen if I want, or tuck it behind something. But it looks much nicer, and is easier to click options on it without having to try to click teeny tiny buttons that require more time and precision to click.

That previous version looks far too small, and ugly if I’m honest. It doesn’t show the album cover art, and uses an ugly yellow box for the title and artist info. It’s busy with too much content crammed into too small of a space. The new one looks vastly more modern and superior, which is probably more appealing to most users. And I just don’t see the minor size difference making any appreciable difference in use-case… 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[Wolf1701]

Some would say it used to be too busy and overcrowded. Also, displays are much bigger nowadays.

Flawed reasoning in computer science. Just because I have more resources doesn't mean I have to waste them. Optimizing and prioritizing efficiency should always be the main focus.

 

[Kal Madda]

Flawed reasoning in computer science. Just because I have more resources doesn't mean I have to waste them. Optimizing and prioritizing efficiency should always be the main focus.

This is actually not true… From a technical optimization/efficiency perspective, a command line uses less resources than a GUI. Ripping away the GUI in favor of command line should be the best option for “optimizing and prioritizing efficiency”, so should Apple do that? So no, optimizing and prioritizing efficiency should not always be the main focus.

The main focus should be features and design that appeal to users and makes their computer experience better. In other words the user should be the main focus. And I am going to hazard to say that the new design there appeals more to modern users than the old design… 🤷🏼‍♂️

I think part of the problem here is that you’re looking at changes made to appeal more to modern users as a “waste” of resources. Making things more pleasant of an experience is not a “waste”… 🙂👍🏻

 

[Sniper08]

Why should I care if the music control utility takes up slightly more screen space? I can move it off the screen if I want, or tuck it behind something. But it looks much nicer, and is easier to click options on it without having to try to click teeny tiny buttons that require more time and precision to click.

That previous version looks far too small, and ugly if I’m honest. It doesn’t show the album cover art, and uses an ugly yellow box for the title and artist info. It’s busy with too much content crammed into too small of a space. The new one looks vastly more modern and superior, which is probably more appealing to most users. And I just don’t see the minor size difference making any appreciable difference in use-case… 🤷🏼‍♂️

I didn't say you should care. I asked you if you comprehended the point they were making, because you keep responding about how much nicer it looks while they're talking about how it functions.

That said, if I need to move a utility window off-screen or hide it behind things because it's too large to keep on-top of windows, then it defeats the point of creating a larger window for aesthetics and album art, since I'm rarely going to see it.

I'm not a designer, but I'm not sure what's modern about this design. It looks like the same now playing lockscreen widget from iOS 12 to 16 to me.

 

[Kal Madda]

I didn't say you should care. I asked you if you comprehended the point they were making, because you keep responding about how much nicer it looks while they're talking about how it functions.

As I said, I don’t believe there is any meaningful difference in utility from the small difference in size… 🤷🏼‍♂️. It seems like grasping at straws to me when you’re trying to argue a window maybe a cm larger is a “functionality issue”… 🤷🏼‍♂️. Furthermore, the new design includes shuffle and repeat buttons for the audio. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but the old design doesn’t appear to include either of those options.

That said, if I need to move a utility window off-screen or hide it behind things because it's too large to keep on-top of windows, then it defeats the point of creating a larger window for aesthetics and album art, since I'm rarely going to see it.

Nobody has to move the window off-screen if they don’t want to, just pointed out it’s an option.

I'm not a designer, but I'm not sure what's modern about this design. It looks like the same now playing lockscreen widget from iOS 12 to 16 to me.

I think iOS 12 is far more modern than whatever macOS version that ugly old design was first introduced in… At least it looks far more modern. The window is clean, less cluttered and crowded, displays cover art, features more pleasantly rounded corners, and looks more congruent and consistent with iOS and Apple’s other platforms…

 

[Sniper08]

You're free not to care or prefer a specific look, but as a graphic designer I'm sure you understand that not all design elements scale up and down cleanly. A cm can make a difference, depending on screen size. I'm going to have a different window arrangement on a 13" screen vs when I plug it into a 32" ultrawide.

I gotta be honest, the phrase '...whatever macOS version that ugly old design was first introduced in...' is really funny considering the UI landscape at the time. Getting old has it's ups and downs, I guess.

 

[Kal Madda]

You're free not to care or prefer a specific look, but as a graphic designer I'm sure you understand that not all design elements scale up and down cleanly. A cm can make a difference, depending on screen size. I'm going to have a different window arrangement on a 13" screen vs when I plug it into a 32" ultrawide.

Yes, but that’s going to be the case with anything. There are unavoidable differences in size between a 13” and 32” display. 🤷🏼‍♂️. Personally, I don’t think the minor difference in size between them will make that big of a functionality difference for most users. It would be one thing if we were talking about a more static and permanent part of the UI, but the window for what amounts to a little media widget you can drag around on the screen? I think the new design makes more sense for consistency’s sake personally. 🤷🏼‍♂️. But I respect that others such as yourself may disagree. 🙂👍🏻

I gotta be honest, the phrase '...whatever macOS version that ugly old design was first introduced in...' is really funny considering the UI landscape at the time. Getting old has it's ups and downs, I guess.

I’m sorry, I hope that didn’t come across as offensive, that certainly wasn’t my intention. 🙂👍🏻. I still remember Windows XP. So it wasn’t meant in a negative way that way. I just think design has luckily moved on since then. 🙂👍🏻

 

[Sniper08]

Yes, but that’s going to be the case with anything. There are unavoidable differences in size between a 13” and 32” display. 🤷🏼‍♂️. Personally, I don’t think the minor difference in size between them will make that big of a functionality difference for most users. It would be one thing if we were talking about a more static and permanent part of the UI, but the window for what amounts to a little media widget you can drag around on the screen? I think the new design makes more sense for consistency’s sake personally. 🤷🏼‍♂️. But I respect that others such as yourself may disagree. 🙂👍🏻

I’m sorry, I hope that didn’t come across as offensive, that certainly wasn’t my intention. 🙂👍🏻. I still remember Windows XP. So it wasn’t meant in a negative way that way. I just think design has luckily moved on since then. 🙂👍🏻

It's all good, I wasn't offended by you or what you said, I'm simply offended by the passage of time haha. (And it was really, really funny honestly; m kid is at that stage where they're expressing opinions this morning and used '...that ugly old fence!')

You're right that the new design is more consistent with the existing UI and general trends. I like the idea of a glass-like UI, and I would love to see MacOS updated with a healthy functional design, but the implementation in MacOS makes it hard to appreciate. Personally, I see the current design asking for more space around elements, which is further frustrated by inconsistent UI behaviour and bugs. It's hard to appreciate the UI as it is when elements shift subtly with each interaction unintentionally (there's a bug about the volume icon in the Beta 3 thread that's been there for a while) or what was glass is now clear or opaque.

I think you're coming at this from a perspective that modern hardware and software are an all-in-one-package (correct me if I'm wrong), which is very different from my expectations of both software and hardware.

 

[maflynn]

The iTunes mini player used to be way more space-efficient, too.

View attachment 2600407

I loved how that looked better particularly in the Aqua motif. You definitely see the SoundJam MP design language.