MacRumors Forum Reorganization

[GGJstudios]

My aim is to have the lay out of the forums fixed so myself and others can make efficient use of them

Others ARE making efficient use of the forums as they are. Because you have a problem doesn't mean the site should be rearranged to suit your personal whims. If you don't like this site, there are others you can frequent. If you choose to stay here, learn to live with it. If there is something seriously wrong that affects a significant number of users, they are welcome to offer ideas for a better solution. You, however, seem to be just ranting and criticizing without offering any real solutions. Most of your complaints are about forums that you obviously have no interest in. So ignore them and move on. If you want a forum that meets your every whim, go start one yourself.

 

[applesupergeek]

Lots of questions little solutions.

If you think they are bad please offer advise on an alternative layout that you think would serve the forums (as a whole) better.




Because there are people who use PPC based computers. However going forwards their issues are crowded by newer computers and issues not associated with their hardware/software.



Because that section includes items that aren't application specific or serve a different target user.



See above.



This was where they were chosen to be. You can always collapse sections by the loozen shaped button in the top right of the sections.



In the sense there is one. The distributed computing sub forum is a hold over from the past. It serves the community that are interested in that well.



Because it is a special interest. It is not like everyone who owns a mac is interested in distributed computing.



Special as in Specialist. Not everyone who owns a mac is into games. If it were dumped in the mac applications it would be diluted to those who weren't interest in talking about games and gaming. It is a place where people who are interested in a special category of mac use can talk about their special interests.



This is not a new name.



In the sense that is an apple service offering us the ability to run windows on our apple system.

As I said before feel free to offer alternatives. When we first changed things, people spoke up and we made changes. We are well aware of the fact that we can't get everything right or indeed please everyone but please be mindful of the fact that we aren't mind readers.

Edit:

See these threads for further points of reference

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/916182/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/913517/

I am not going to offer alternatives. If you choose to ignore the community and not open this up to public discussion you can't then accuse the community of not offering alternatives. That's hypocrisy. You can't have it both ways. Open this up for public discussion in a widely visible thread (and like most forums do in a sticky) and I 'll put my 2 cents in. And more than putting my 2 cs in I am looking forward to the ideas from other members, since the ideas of the moderating team are at best stale and at worst completely lacking in common sense.

On to your points:

1. PPC macs are still imacs, mac minis, powerbooks, they can easily fit as they did in their respective categories. They way you are doing it renders them even less visible (instead of salvaging them from overcrowding) because in an imac say subforum a ppc imac thread will get some attention, whilst a ppc specific subforum diminishes them to legacy macs.

2. Your reply is irrelevant. They don't serve a different target user, what target user only deals with applications and not system software? All forums lump apple software together and separate subforums for system and applications.

3. You didn't reply to my point, it defies logic to have the hardware subforums in between subforums that both deal with software.

4. A ok thanks, it's there because we said so. Typical reply and representative of the moderators's attitude here.

5. It not being a new name, doesn't make it any better.

6. That's some convoluted thinking there imho. Games are software, put them there.

7. A distributed computing subforum is pointless, if there are people so gung ho about distributed computing, they can go within a general CS subforum and talk there, I am sure since this is so interesting to them they are going to find them, but for the average "target" (as you said) user it's completely pointless. Make an advanced computing subforum to interest everyone, picking one field has no rational.

8. Mind boggling thinking again. Windows on Mac can refer to Parallels running windows on a mac, how is that an apple service? Even windows in boot camp is not an "apple service" because boot camp is an apple service.


Makes so little sense the way you 've structured the forums, and, you know, I am sorry to say this, but I consider your arguments very very weak. Just put this up for public discussion, I am sure the community can do a better job. You don't trust public opinion, while you really shouldn't be trusting your consensus opinion, because imho it's made a mess of any semblance of structure in the forums.

 

[DylanLikesPorn]

If you want a forum that meets your every whim, go start one yourself.

I agree. If you don't like the forums, go away and start your own! Stop providing negative feedback. Shut up or put up is what my mom says. If you don't like the way the forum is organized, that's too bad, just be quiet.

 

[GGJstudios]

I am not going to offer alternatives.

Then your posts are nothing more than childish rants. You're not trying to be constructive. You're trying to create dissent and argument. Your whole attitude isn't "I like this forum, but here's some things I don't understand" or "I like this forum, but here's some ideas I think could make it better". Rather, you're attitude is "this forum is garbage and you don't know what you're doing and you've made stupid decisions". Well, they're only "stupid decisions" because you have a very limited frame of reference. You're only looking at this from ONE point of view. There are a few hundred thousand points of view at work here, not just yours.

And one great advantage to having the forums separated as they are is so that people don't have to wade through threads that don't interest them to find those that do.

I, for one, don't care about PPC or games or iPods or iPads or Windows on the Mac, or several other topics. By having them in separate forums, I can exclude them from Forum Spy and not be bothered with thousands of threads that are meaningless to me.

By having the forums categorized as they are, each person can choose what they want to see and what they don't.

I doubt you'll understand or agree with that, because you only appear to be interested in having the world revolve around you. Well.... it doesn't!

 

[applesupergeek]

Others ARE making efficient use of the forums as they are. Because you have a problem doesn't mean the site should be rearranged to suit your personal whims. If you don't like this site, there are others you can frequent. If you choose to stay here, learn to live with it. If there is something seriously wrong that affects a significant number of users, they are welcome to offer ideas for a better solution. You, however, seem to be just ranting and criticizing without offering any real solutions. Most of your complaints are about forums that you obviously have no interest in. So ignore them and move on. If you want a forum that meets your every whim, go start one yourself.

Let me respond to your reply to my points... oh wait you didn't reply to my points, you just labeled them whims.

Now let me break it you, because I despise your fascist attitude: you either reply to my points or ignore them. It's the feedback forum, and I am leaving feedback. Your "whim" of liking the lay out, isn't by virtue of your saying so superior to my ARGUMENTS against specific points on the lay out. At the very least it's debatable. Nor are my points by virtue of you saying so (and not providing arguments against them) rants.

Feedback forums are not supposed to be congregations of fascists telling others to "leave you won't be missed" or "go start" a forum yourself. And btw who are you? Are you moderator here? Or did you just decide to rant on a whim, to use your phraseology.

 

[flopticalcube]

I quite like the new forum layout. There was a thread (posted above, I believe) where members made their voices heard. Splitting of the PPC macs was a good decision as most of the problems are specific to their needs. Going forward, they will account for fewer and fewer posts so they will be hidden amongst the Intel posts.

 

[GGJstudios]

Let me respond to your reply to my points... oh wait you didn't reply to my points, you just labeled them whims.

Now let me break it you, because I despise your fascist attitude: you either reply to my points or ignore them. It's the feedback forum, and I am leaving feedback. Your "whim" of liking the lay out, isn't by virtue of your saying so superior to my ARGUMENTS against specific points on the lay out. At the very least it's debatable. Nor are my points by virtue of you saying so (and not providing arguments against them) rants.

Feedback forums are not supposed to be congregations of fascists telling others to "leave you won't be missed" or "go start" a forum yourself. And btw who are you? Are you moderator here? Or did you just decide to rant on a whim, to use your phraseology.

I have offered a reply to your points. I don't need to address them one by one, as my reply relates to all of them. And who am I? I'm a forum member, just like you. That means I have the right to post in this thread, just like you. I have the right to disagree with you and view your complaints-with-no-solutions as rants. You may also want to read the Forum Rules (which I'm sure you also disagree with) concerning insults. They can get you banned.

 

[xUKHCx]

I am not going to offer alternatives. If you choose to ignore the community and not open this up to public discussion you can't then accuse the community of not offering alternatives. That's hypocrisy.

If you think they are bad please offer advise on an alternative layout that you think would serve the forums (as a whole) better.

...

As I said before feel free to offer alternatives. When we first changed things, people spoke up and we made changes. We are well aware of the fact that we can't get everything right or indeed please everyone but please be mindful of the fact that we aren't mind readers.

Edit:

See these threads for further points of reference

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/916182/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/913517/

I have clearly stated that we don't ignore the community and have indeed offered you an invite to talk about this matter yet you have offered no solutions. The offer still stands and you are more than welcome to present your ideas of how the forum should've been restructured.

 

[jonbravo77]

You had a mod answer your concerns with a very professional response. You then turn around and in a way insult the way he answered you. There doesn't seem to be any help that you would accept. IMHO I would suggest you go make a forum like this on your own and see what it takes to do so. Not saying that to be mean, just saying that it's not as easy as you feel it may be.

 

[Hellhammer]

Let me respond to your reply to my points... oh wait you didn't reply to my points, you just labeled them whims.

Now let me break it you, because I despise your fascist attitude: you either reply to my points or ignore them. It's the feedback forum, and I am leaving feedback. Your "whim" of liking the lay out, isn't by virtue of your saying so superior to my ARGUMENTS against specific points on the lay out. At the very least it's debatable. Nor are my points by virtue of you saying so (and not providing arguments against them) rants.

Feedback forums are not supposed to be congregations of fascists telling others to "leave you won't be missed" or "go start" a forum yourself. And btw who are you? Are you moderator here? Or did you just decide to rant on a whim, to use your phraseology.

Why can't you provide alternatives then? Now you are whining about things being bad but then if you get asked how would you improve them, you say nothing other than lets make this sticky and let people decide. Who people? Currently, nobody has agreed with you. You have provided zero reasons why it should be reorganized again.

GGJ is right, start your own forum and be the admin there. Then you can do whatever you want. A mod has already provided valid answer for you. If you can't provide any suggestions what to make, then why are you posting? He said mods aren't mind readers

 

[applesupergeek]

I agree. If you don't like the forums, go away and start your own! Stop providing negative feedback. Shut up or put up is what my mom says. If you don't like the way the forum is organized, that's too bad, just be quiet.

Wake up and smell the coffee, it's the feedback forum, not the positive feedback forum. Sorry for that, kinda clashes with your fascist mentality of if you don't like it too bad just shut up.

And I was absolutely right in what I was expecting here, inane flaming.

Because I 've read a lot of threads in the feeback forums, and most of the time when there's negative feedback it's not an impetus for discussion, or (god forbid) improvement of the forums, but a vehicle for everyone and their brother to vent out against the op with the worst type of mod mentality and with the blessings of the moderating team of course.

 

[GGJstudios]

And I was absolutely right in what I was expecting here, inane flaming.

The combative, insulting, antagonistic attitude you displayed in your first post set the tone for this thread. Are you truly so naive that you wouldn't expect people to respond in like manner? Again, you have not offered constructive criticism.... only criticism. You appear to have a chip on your shoulder and therefore, your arguments, no matter how sensible they seem to you, come across as a childish temper tantrum. If you want people to respond with calm reasoning and respectful communication, you should have practiced that yourself.

 

[spinnerlys]

Wake up and smell the coffee, it's the feedback forum, not the positive feedback forum. Sorry for that, kinda clashes with your fascist mentality of if you don't like it too bad just shut up.

And I was absolutely right in what I was expecting here, inane flaming.

Because I 've read a lot of threads in the feeback forums, and most of the time when there's negative feedback it's not an impetus for discussion, or (god forbid) improvement of the forums, but a vehicle for everyone and their brother to vent out against the op with the worst type of mod mentality and with the blessings of the moderating team of course.

So why won't you provide some ideas then?

It's like saying "the USA is the worst country in the world, and the health care initiative is a load of crap" without having any alternatives.

You have the right to say that "the USA is the worst country in the world, and the health care initiative is a load of crap" without giving any ideas on how to do it differently, but don't expect a healthy and fruitful discussion if you can't provide valid arguments and even proposals to do it better.

And please don't call us all fascists, unless you want to get flamed. Nazi is a much better word.
Or was it your intention to get those replies?
From your posts, I get the feeling it was.

 

[applesupergeek]

You had a mod answer your concerns with a very professional response. You then turn around and in a way insult the way he answered you. There doesn't seem to be any help that you would accept. IMHO I would suggest you go make a forum like this on your own and see what it takes to do so. Not saying that to be mean, just saying that it's not as easy as you feel it may be.

I am sorry, can you quote me on where I insulted him? I replied to every single point he made in an equally "professional manner".

I have clearly stated that we don't ignore the community and have indeed offered you an invite to talk about this matter yet you have offered no solutions. The offer still stands and you are more than welcome to present your ideas of how the forum should've been restructured.

Wait a second, I get a reply that all my points are invalid, right? That's the reply I got, that my points don't hold ground, and I perfectly prepared to accept this if this is your opinion. And now you are telling me you are inviting me to offer solutions? Sorry to say this, but can you get any more hypocritical than that? Solutions to what? To the problems you don't consider are there to begin with? You are telling me, yeah well, we disagree with everything you said (every single point - not one of them was judged worthy of even further discussion) but please offer your solutions?

And you seem to have missed what I said, that it's not so much a matter of me going in the feedback forum and discussing these issues with the mods (who think what I am talking about is a non issue) and a bunch of posters telling me to shut up, and get out. It's a matter of getting the community involved in participating in this discussion, just like most forums do when there's a major layout change. I am very eager to hear what other users think, and what ideas they have, because I am not satisfied with the ideas you guys had on restructuring the forums.

But that's not going to happen, so what kind of invite is this?

 

[xUKHCx]

I was simply offering counter points to yours. My own views, those views that you were asking for.

so what kind of invite is this?

One that can answer you very own problem

because I am not satisfied with the ideas you guys had on restructuring the forums.

 

[applesupergeek]

So why won't you provide some ideas then?

It's like saying "the USA is the worst country in the world, and the health care initiative is a load of crap" without having any alternatives.

You have the right to say that "the USA is the worst country in the world, and the health care initiative is a load of crap" without giving any ideas on how to do it differently, but don't expect a healthy and fruitful discussion if you can't provide valid arguments and even proposals to do it better.

And please don't call us all fascists, unless you want to get flamed. Nazi is a much better word.
Or was it your intention to get those replies?
From your posts, I get the feeling it was.

Sure I am the one being nonconstructive here because amidst repeated bashing (which to the moderators is perfectly acceptable to hear some posters saying to the op to shut up and get out in the feedback forum of all places) from posters and moderators negating my points as a non issue I should somehow be coming up with constructive solutions in this climate that's so very conducive to discussion... who are you kidding, because it sure isn't me...

If there really was some intention of my feedback being taken into account, the moderators, would a.) tell those bashing that it's the feeback forum and telling other users to shut up is unacceptable and b.) offer some presence at least that their choices where up for discussion and that they were looking for ideas to improve on their decision.

 

[GGJstudios]

... to hear some posters saying to the op to shut up ...

On the contrary, we're not saying shut up. We're saying speak up, and offer some constructive ideas on how to improve the forum. Apparently, you don't have any such ideas, or you would have offered at least one. Therefore, you appear to only want to rant, insult and complain. That's not "feedback".

feedback |ˈfēdˌbak|
noun
1 information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement.

You haven't offered one thing that could be used as a basis for improvement. OK, we get that you don't like the way things are. So pretend to be mature and offer some constructive ideas on how it should be done better.

 

[applesupergeek]

I was simply offering counter points to yours. My own views, those views that you were asking for.

One that can answer you very own problem

Ok, here are my solutions:

a. Put the layout up for public discussion, I am eager to see the forums restructured based on the collective opinions, discussion and feedback of the users. That's first and foremost what I believe should be done. I want to hear what others have to say because I know structuring the forums is complex and one can't have enough feedback.

b. As for my own views (which are implicit in my criticism) for the time being, and with an option for them to change in a public discussion, they are as follows. Hardware and software should be the two main broad sub categories. Apple hardware to include the i devices, macs, and notebook subforums, the software to incorporate, os x, ios (which is missing) applications (sub categories for device specific apps), visual arts, games and audio. Lose the distributed computing subforum and incorporate it in an "advanced computing" (or a more apt name) forum elsewhere. In hardware macs should come first before the i devices, and in software os x should come first.

There are nuances to these of course that won't go into right now, unless there is a public discussion and vote on these.

This is what a consider a simple intuitive solution instead of the mess of putting the idevices first (hardware), then the applications on them and in os x (software), then (inexplicably) the mac hardware, and then some special interests section with software and distributed computing.

On the contrary, we're not saying shut up. We're saying speak up, and offer some constructive ideas on how to improve the forum. Apparently, you don't have any such ideas, or you would have offered at least one. Therefore, you appear to only want to rant, insult and complain. That's not "feedback".

You haven't offered one thing that could be used as a basis for improvement. OK, we get that you don't like the way things are. So pretend to be mature and offer some constructive ideas on how it should be done better.

Save me the hypocrisy, I had enough for one day, it's not even irritating any more, it's just plain boring. You told me to get out and start my own forum, you didn't bother responding to any of my points, but instead told me I was ranting and that the forum could not accommodate my whims.

 

[miles01110]

You told me to get out and start my own forum, you didn't bother responding to any of my points, but instead told me I was ranting and that the forum could not accommodate my whims.

...because that's exactly what you're doing. We're still waiting to any kind of substance behind your "arguments." I, for one, am not going to hold my breath. If you actually had something to say beyond "I don't like this" you would have said it by now.

 

[GGJstudios]

You told me to get out and start my own forum,

Quote me where I said that.

you didn't bother responding to any of my points,

On the contrary, I explicitly responded to all your points, but you chose to ignore my response.

a. Put the layout up for public discussion, I am eager to see the forums restructured based on the collective opinions, discussion and feedback of the users. That's first and foremost what I believe should be done. I want to hear what others have to say because I know structuring the forums is complex and one can't have enough feedback.

The layout is always up for public discussion, and this is the forum for such discussion. The constructive way to discuss is to say "I don't like this...." followed by "here's what I think should be done, instead". You haven't done this until now.

Hardware and software should be the two main broad sub categories. Apple hardware to include the i devices, macs, and notebook subforums, the software to incorporate, os x, ios (which is missing) applications (sub categories for device specific apps), visual arts, games and audio. Lose the distributed computing subforum and incorporate it in an "advanced computing" (or a more apt name) forum elsewhere. In hardware macs should come first before the i devices, and in software os x should come first.

There are nuances to these of course that won't go into right now, unless there is a public discussion and vote on these.

This is what a consider a simple intuitive solution instead of the mess of putting the idevices first (hardware), then the applications on them and in os x (software), then (inexplicably) the mac hardware, and then some special interests section with software and distributed computing.

These are the first and only helpful, constructive comments you've made in this entire thread. If you had started with this, instead of your tirade, this thread would have been much more helpful.

 

[applesupergeek]

So, when will you guys open up the pubic discussion for the reorganization of the forums?

It's evident that you think they way you've structured them is just peachy -and I can't blame you, most people who won't listen to what others or the word at large is saying (myself included when I do not listen) consider their actions as just peachy- but like I 've repeatedly stressed here (even more so that my own opinions of the structure) is that this should be opened up for public feedback and discussion.

So, I was wondering if you are re-considering your decision.

I mean come on, what harm would enabling the community here voice their opinion do? Aren't these forums about and for the apple community and not the stronghold of the moderating team?

And please make it a sticky outside the site feedback forum, because unlike the average 16 people viewing this subforums a few thousands are elsewhere.

Thanks.

 

[Hellhammer]

So, when will you guys open up the pubic discussion for the reorganization of the forums?

It's evident that you think they way you've structured them is just peachy -and I can't blame you, most people who won't listen to what others or the word at large is saying (myself included when I do not listen) consider their actions as just peachy- but like I 've repeatedly stressed here (even more so that my own opinions of the structure) is that this should be opened up for public feedback and discussion.

So, I was wondering if you are re-considering your decision.

I mean come on, what harm would enabling the community here voice their opinion do? Aren't these forums about and for the apple community and not the stronghold of the moderating team?

And please make it a sticky outside the site feedback forum, because unlike the average 16 people viewing this subforums a few thousands are elsewhere.

Thanks.

I don't think there is other place than this. I know this is a dead forum but I doubt Arn is fine with posting something like this to first page, especially as most people are just fine with current design. This isn't even that big issue.

This forum is available for everyone and this thread belongs to here thus I can't find a reason to start a new thread or "open" this even more. You could e.g. PM 10 people and ask their opinion about the current layout to get the idea how other people think about it Currently it's just your opinion and one mans opinion isn't enough to make crucial changes. If you gather up a bunch of people, then the community must hear them too. You find this being a big issue so you have to do the dirty job

Of course I'm not a mod thus that's just my opinion but I can't see why this is so big issue of yours.

 

[annk]

Sure I am the one being nonconstructive here because amidst repeated bashing (which to the moderators is perfectly acceptable to hear some posters saying to the op to shut up and get out in the feedback forum of all places) from posters and moderators negating my points as a non issue I should somehow be coming up with constructive solutions in this climate that's so very conducive to discussion... who are you kidding, because it sure isn't me...

If there really was some intention of my feedback being taken into account, the moderators, would a.) tell those bashing that it's the feeback forum and telling other users to shut up is unacceptable and b.) offer some presence at least that their choices where up for discussion and that they were looking for ideas to improve on their decision.

Personally, I try not to interfere too much in site and forum feedback discussions, because I'm worried that a lot of heavy mod "interference" might inhibit members from continuing the discussion. In this case, xUKHCx has been participating, and I agree with everything he's said. In general, I think if a mod is participating, you can more or less assume that he or she is saying much the same thing that any of us would've said. In cases where we're only speaking for ourselves as members, we usually say so, so as not to create confusion about policy etc.

We don't allow rule-breaking in here any more than we do in the other sub-forums, but we try to make a distinction between heated discussions and strong feelings and actual rules violations. One thing to remember is that the way ideas are presented will have an effect on how they are received by the other members in the thread.

Ok, here are my solutions:

a. Put the layout up for public discussion, I am eager to see the forums restructured based on the collective opinions, discussion and feedback of the users. That's first and foremost what I believe should be done. I want to hear what others have to say because I know structuring the forums is complex and one can't have enough feedback.

b. As for my own views (which are implicit in my criticism) for the time being, and with an option for them to change in a public discussion, they are as follows. Hardware and software should be the two main broad sub categories. Apple hardware to include the i devices, macs, and notebook subforums, the software to incorporate, os x, ios (which is missing) applications (sub categories for device specific apps), visual arts, games and audio. Lose the distributed computing subforum and incorporate it in an "advanced computing" (or a more apt name) forum elsewhere. In hardware macs should come first before the i devices, and in software os x should come first.

There are nuances to these of course that won't go into right now, unless there is a public discussion and vote on these.

This is what a consider a simple intuitive solution instead of the mess of putting the idevices first (hardware), then the applications on them and in os x (software), then (inexplicably) the mac hardware, and then some special interests section with software and distributed computing.

It's already been stated here I think that anything (except specific instances of moderation, which are between the member and the mods) can be opened up to public discussion here, so that bit's taken care of. I can't promise that there will be an official thread opened up by the admins for voting on this, since there's just been a huge process involved in the current restructuring. But I can promise that complaints and suggestions brought up in these threads are read and discussed by the mods and admins.

This is not a promise that anything will change right now, but all concrete suggestions are taken seriously, and some do affect change down the line even if nothing happens immediately.

My post is NOT meant to be the last word in any way, so carry on...

 

[applesupergeek]

Ankk, thanks for your polite and considerate post, as per usual

 

[SilentPanda]

Initially the admins/mods discussed the re-org. There was some discussion between us but of course we have to eventually come to a consensus. Once it was implemented we actually made some changes based on user feedback. You or anybody else is more than welcome to post feedback on how things should be changed. Don't just say, "X is wrong". Say, "X is wrong because and I think it should be Y because of Z". It's a lot more helpful. I'm not saying it isn't done in this thread, but it hasn't been all the time.

Feedback is very welcome. I doubt we'll have a "how should the forums be organized" thread because you really end up with too many cooks in the kitchen. Even with the small amount of admin/mods we have we didn't come to a 100% consensus. But at some point you have to go "That's good enough". You're not going to get a full agreement with something this large.

Also some of these posts are getting towards attacking people. Let's calm down. It's just a series of letters with links that we're discussing.