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Major design flaw which has child safety implications
- Thread starter darthbane2k
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flowrider
macrumors 604
How Apple secured MacBook Neo's camera indicator without a hardware light
Instead of a secure, dedicated indicator light, MacBook Neo just shows a green icon when the camera is in use. Yet years of software engineering effort means the camera "exclave" still can't be hacked.
Lou
Starfia
macrumors 68000
The main benefit of the indicator light is to alert you that the camera is on at times when you aren't attempting to use it, or might otherwise have the impression the camera is off.
I see I didn't realize. I wish we lived in a nice world where there was no hacking and everyone was trust worthy.
I tested the full screen green light indicator being on with Photo Booth. Works for me. Interesting! I wouldn't have noticed that for a while unless I saw this thread.
NT1440
macrumors P6
But…it’s using the iPhone chip and therefore the same security hardware stack/pipeline. For all intents and purposes it’s exactly the same hardware security for the camera as the iPhone when it comes to the front facing camera. It running macOS doesn’t negate that chip’s security architecture for components that would be in the iPhone OS.Not being silly at all.
Firstly - iOS and iPad OS are a LOT more locked down than Mac OS
Secondly, this has always been a feature of Macs that Apple themselves promote. Just seems dumb to remove it from a product that is largely targetting students and school children.
Don't close your MacBook, MacBook Air or MacBook Pro with a cover over the camera – Apple Support (UK)
Closing your Mac laptop with a camera cover on it may damage your display. Designed to protect your privacy, Mac laptops have a camera indicator light to let you know when the camera is on.support.apple.com
Starfia
macrumors 68000
That's one thing, but there are innocuous cases. Perhaps you thought you'd ended a FaceTime call that's still happening in the background, and so on.
Starfia
macrumors 68000
In light of some of the replies showing there are indeed special security measures there, I hope you'll ultimately take some of this back (and feel better assured about the safety aspect). It's design flaw if those measures do prove ineffective, but that has yet to be shown. Certainly it isn't simply an oversight.
And as another poster said, the actual physical indicator light that was on old MacBooks can be theoretically bypassed as well.
Truth is the only actual way to be 100% certain that the camera isn’t viewing you is to cover it.
Or disconnect it internally.
Starfia
macrumors 68000
If you're shocked more people don't know this, would you be willing to link to a record of it?
That exploited camera hardware from 2008 is completely different from a 2026 MacBook. It's totally irrelevant to the discussion.
Parowdy
macrumors 68000
There’s a MAJOR difference between Mac and iPhone though, not so much iPad anymore.
The iPhone doesn’t need a hardware indicator, as the camera will always be initiated by the one, singular app running.
On Mac you can have a hundred apps on the same desktop and be dumbfounded which might use the camera or mic.
Parowdy
macrumors 68000
Not entirely true. If the camera receives power on Mac, the light will turn on. That’s a hardware feature. If the light is off, you can be 100% certain that it doesn’t record. That hardware feature is missing from the Neo.
And there was me thinking RAM and SSD were scarce - yet we have Apple running away from cheap LEDs on both the keyboard and camera bezel.
When I can buy a £300 Chromebook with keyboard backlighting and a camera light - I'm not sure what Apple's logic was here, it really can only save a few pennies of cost.
When I can buy a £300 Chromebook with keyboard backlighting and a camera light - I'm not sure what Apple's logic was here, it really can only save a few pennies of cost.
Apps need permission before using the camera, and macOS will list which app is using or recently used the camera in the control center.
Not questioning your claim, but trying to learn. Can you link to something that describes this in more detail, please?
EDIT: I googled this and all I found was people on Reddit or Medium or HackerNews claiming(!) that it is a hardware feature. MacWorld also has an article that just repeats this.
Apple itself only says: "The camera is engineered so that it can’t activate without the camera indicator light also turning on. This is how you can tell if your camera is on." https://support.apple.com/en-us/102177 which is too vague (IMHO) to conclude that it refers to a hardware feature.
Maybe - because I am not a native speaker - I am misinterpreting the term "engineered"?
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Starfia
macrumors 68000
I think it's so it has a HW only solution which can't be hacked by SW. In other words, there is no ability for SW to disable it as there is no API to do that.
Parowdy
macrumors 68000
That’s true. So? I didn’t engineer the the iPhone or Mac, I just tell why it is the way it is.
Yes, there are software features accompanying the hardware, or lack there of, which are both rather recent additions to the core design. Doesn’t change a thing about what I wrote though.
The designs are based on focus.
Big screen > put focus a place less cluttered
Small screen > put place into focus
Parowdy
macrumors 68000
Your English is more than proper enough.
It’s fair to question these claims. I went the lazy and unsustainable route and asked ChatGPT.
The interesting bits come after my second inquiry.
Here is the link to the chat:
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Interesting article. Thanks for linking. He makes the case that the Neo's solution is even more secure than the hardware based option in other Macs, as the protections apply to the Microphone as well. That's really great to know.