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Maximizing Windows? How could Apple miss this?
- Thread starter MarkF786
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this took me a month to get used to, but now that i'm used to it, i can't stand the xtra white space in windows...
i think it's awsome that i can have safari maximized to what i REALLY need, and have enough room for adium on the side... if i had a bigger monitor and lets say i was doing some research, i can have two or three safari windows that are automatically sized to the actual need, and have a wordprocessor sheet on the bottom..
either way you can always drag the corner to maximize it if you really need, but trust me switchers.. just try osx's ways and you'll get used to it.. MS has a really strong focus on the task bar; while osx has a real strong focus on using expose instead, atleast in tiger.. ofcourse you can minimize to the dock, but if you notice most OSX users, they tend to have all their applications open, or have them "hidden," few will have more than 1-2 apps minimized in the dock.
i think it's awsome that i can have safari maximized to what i REALLY need, and have enough room for adium on the side... if i had a bigger monitor and lets say i was doing some research, i can have two or three safari windows that are automatically sized to the actual need, and have a wordprocessor sheet on the bottom..
either way you can always drag the corner to maximize it if you really need, but trust me switchers.. just try osx's ways and you'll get used to it.. MS has a really strong focus on the task bar; while osx has a real strong focus on using expose instead, atleast in tiger.. ofcourse you can minimize to the dock, but if you notice most OSX users, they tend to have all their applications open, or have them "hidden," few will have more than 1-2 apps minimized in the dock.
actually with the upcoming leopard release, there will be a feature called 'spaces' which will allow you to switch between 4 full size windows. Think of it as 4 monitors in one except you can't use it as a typical dual monitor set up. But you could place word on one space, itunes and your web browser on another, photoshop on another space, etc.
Window maximize is the dominant paradigm, but not necessarily the right one. The maximize to full screen encourages using a single application at a time, more similar to a command line style OS. One thing at a time. Which makes sense as both Windows and Gnome/KDE are derived from command line OSes. Having a number of windows visibile encourages simultaneous use and drag and drop functionality.MarkF786 said:
I don't know about 7.5.1, but I've used Mac OS back to 8.0 and none have had a fullscreen maximize. I think having all the things out there is actually a closer map to reality. On my desk I've got some papers, a book, my computer, stickies, a stapler, different pens, my phone; all there for me to use at any time. Windows is like I sit across the room from my desk and walk over to grab something when I need it, walk back, use it and then return to get the next thing. But to each their own.
Frogurt said:I think having all the things out there is actually a closer map to reality. On my desk I've got some papers, a book, my computer, stickies, a stapler, different pens, my phone; all there for me to use at any time. Windows is like I sit across the room from my desk and walk over to grab something when I need it, walk back, use it and then return to get the next thing. But to each their own.
Now that's a better analogy.
MarkF786 said:
Maybe try Virtue Desktops, it really is a great piece of freeware.
I agree with most of the guys here though, I dislike maximising things most of the time, I always find it funny when a windows user uses my machine and I see them browsing safari maximised across the whole screen with 6+ inches of white each side like someone mentioned, its quite bizarre
Sad to see so many people defeding a lack of choice. You don't want it so anyone who does just doesn't understand how things are supposed to work? Puhleez!
Maximizing windows is an annoying quirk. And it's application independant. Maximize the mail program and it goes full screen (mostly). Maximize a finder window and it just stretches vertically. Can't even blame that on vendor issues since they're both Apple programs. Firefox will actually get narrower in some cases! It's a pretty lame inconsistancy that just shouldn't exist. Maximize = maximize, not "change to some random window size that's taller but not necessarily wider and maybe even narrower".
When I bought a new Mac, I noticed a lot of quirks in OSX. Most annoying was (text smoothing). I couldn't turn it off. I could adjust the settings but it was not an optional feature. If I want to put on rose colored glasses, fine. But don't make me wear them. I don't like it. ~75dpi is not high enough pixel density to do it well. Even more annoying was the fact that not all apps were subjected to it. The terminal window doesn't screw around with font smoothing so it can obviously be disabled in the OS. Why not give me that option across the board? Why force me to adapt to blurry text?
Sure, there are 3rd party applications and "tweaks" that let users customize their UI experience but it shouldn't be necessary to seek out hacks and workarounds to make basic functions consistant and unlock controls that should be readily available.
Maximizing windows is an annoying quirk. And it's application independant. Maximize the mail program and it goes full screen (mostly). Maximize a finder window and it just stretches vertically. Can't even blame that on vendor issues since they're both Apple programs. Firefox will actually get narrower in some cases! It's a pretty lame inconsistancy that just shouldn't exist. Maximize = maximize, not "change to some random window size that's taller but not necessarily wider and maybe even narrower".
When I bought a new Mac, I noticed a lot of quirks in OSX. Most annoying was (text smoothing). I couldn't turn it off. I could adjust the settings but it was not an optional feature. If I want to put on rose colored glasses, fine. But don't make me wear them. I don't like it. ~75dpi is not high enough pixel density to do it well. Even more annoying was the fact that not all apps were subjected to it. The terminal window doesn't screw around with font smoothing so it can obviously be disabled in the OS. Why not give me that option across the board? Why force me to adapt to blurry text?
Sure, there are 3rd party applications and "tweaks" that let users customize their UI experience but it shouldn't be necessary to seek out hacks and workarounds to make basic functions consistant and unlock controls that should be readily available.
I thought I liked everything maximized when I was a Windows user, but ever since switching to OS X, I find this way much more useful and productive. I like seeing all the windows around me. And why waste screen real estate with a Web page that only needs so much space? Also it's great dragging and dropping files. Seeing all the windows open at once is great, rather than having to go to the Taskbar in Windows just to open a window. It's also great for when working in Photoshop. And when I don't want it, I simply switch to fullscreen editing mode (F).
Edit: jtown, your quote about maximize = maximize is okay for Windows... but in OS X it's called Zoom, so there is a difference.
Edit: jtown, your quote about maximize = maximize is okay for Windows... but in OS X it's called Zoom, so there is a difference.
On the Mac, the desktop is like a real desktop. You can have several documents that you're working on at once. You can take one, work on it, put it off to the side and work on another. If you want it to be out of the way for awhile, you can close it or minimize it to the dock. Only one window has the focus. Just because it's open and visible, doesn't mean you're working on it or have to concern yourself with it at all.MarkF786 said:
Although there is no maximize button in OS X, most windows remember their size, so you should only have to do the corner-drag once if you insist on working that way. I'd urge you to keep an open mind about the Mac way, though.
Yeah, there are a few quirks and inconsitencies in OSX, but there are in Windows and Linux too. Apple has some work to reign things in and standardize, but it seems from this board that most Mac users and a number of switchers think Apple got it right on zoom vs maximize. The issue is really that Windows taught people how to work one way, Linux followed along and Mac went a different route. People switching to Mac are caught trying to relearn. Changing window size is a learned activity, not an instictive one.jtown said:
It's funny when I first went from System 7 to Win95, it was quite normal to work fullscreen in Windows since the display resolutions weren't high enough then to mean lots of white space.
When I switched back to OSX, I spent my first few weeks maximising everything the hard way - then I tried leaving it at 'zoom' and discovered I like having my iTunes sitting in the background or a website that I'm researching from.
Funnily enough, I now work in Windows (at work) with the majority of my windows not maximised and just stretched to fit. It's amazing what your brain will think normal/adapt to over time!
When I switched back to OSX, I spent my first few weeks maximising everything the hard way - then I tried leaving it at 'zoom' and discovered I like having my iTunes sitting in the background or a website that I'm researching from.
Funnily enough, I now work in Windows (at work) with the majority of my windows not maximised and just stretched to fit. It's amazing what your brain will think normal/adapt to over time!
MarkF786 said:
I would actually advise that you don't try them. Not being able to maximise was something that annoyed me when I first switched over, but now I prefer having smaller windows. You will get used to it in time
Right now I have Safari on the right side of my screen, with a "strip" on the left for Adium. That way, I don't need to switch between windows when a message comes in
According to a TUAW article..
...and it makes perfect sense. It's why I love OS X and hate Windows; multitasking behaviour.
...and it makes perfect sense. It's why I love OS X and hate Windows; multitasking behaviour.
QuarterSwede said:
Exactly what I used to think about when using Windows. (After using OS X extensively) When not maximized, stuff looks really weird in Windows. When in OS X, (my only OS, no more Windows for me unless I'm at a friend's house or something) I never maximize an application. I like having several apps open at once and if it gets too cluttered, there's always the hide command. (Command+H) I also usually never minimize to the dock. I keep all kinds of apps open pretty much all the time and just hide them if I'm not using them. (Something that I'm pretty sure isn't even possible in Windows)
Having multiple windows open and visible fits better with the drag and drop nature of the Mac OS - more so than Windows. (I have used various flavours of Windows since 1987, and OS X for 30 months ... I now much prefer the OS X model, and seldom maximise windows, even in XP).
OzMo said:
Yeah, that's another good point. Dragging and dropping is MUCH better in the Mac OS. One example is being able to just drag an image that I see on a website that I like to the desktop to save it.
I noticed that it hasn't been pointed out that part of the reason of the need to maximize Windows apps to full screen comes from the fact that many Windows apps are rooted. That is to say, many Windows apps have a root window in which other document windows exist.
The reason for this type of application environment goes back to the original purpose of Windows... which was not as an operating system, but as a shell for running GUI apps in DOS.
If you take an application designed to have multiple document windows open at once (like Photoshop), you'll notice that there is a main (root) window which is usually set to take over the full screen (leaving you with a grey background). Within this root window is all your document windows that can only exist within this root window... and resizing the root window limits what documents you can see.
I know this was one of the oddest things I came across the first time I used Windows. I had been using Apple, NeXT and SGI computers for almost 10 years before I used a Windows system. And I had also been using Photoshop on both Apple and SGI systems up to that point, so the rooted app environment of Windows took me by surprise. On both Apple and SGI systems I could always see other applications in the background while working in Photoshop... and seeing as I was almost always preparing an image for use in another application, having that other app visible helped me prepare the image for where it was going. But in Windows, I could never see beyond Photoshop's root window.
As has been pointed out, this has the tendency of defeating multitasking.
But I would also point out that this absolutely has it's place in the computing world. Full screen apps are perfect for gamers, secretaries and data entry people... all of whom rarely multitask and who are more productive when protected from distractions (well, more productive except in the case of the gamers I guess).
Generally what I've seen is that Windows users have a phobia of seeing the desktop or other apps while working in one app. Back when I serviced Windows systems I was always amazed to see people with navigation windows at full screen. And in one case I got an emergency call from a secretary who, after getting a new large display, was unable to work on her system because her database app no longer maximized to full screen. The app was designed to go full screen only at 800x600, the fix (to get her working again) was to set her 19" display to 800x600. You could read the text on the screen from across the room.
I think most Windows users missed the "desktop" metaphor for computers... which may be why Windows users call their desktops walls (as in wallpaper) rather than desktop (as in desktop images). On a computer, document windows are like papers on a desk. You can move them around, shuffle their order, put some away while working on others... like how we used to work at desks before we had computers.
But if we attempt to apply this metaphor to the Windows world, what we end up with is a desk where every document (from your standard letter to PostIt notes) is 3 feet by 6 feet... covering the whole desk. Why would I want a letter to be the size of a poster? Why would I want a PostIt note to be the size of a poster?
But of course, in the Windows world, their desktop metaphor is a wall so I would guess that posters are what they are thinking they really need.
The reason for this type of application environment goes back to the original purpose of Windows... which was not as an operating system, but as a shell for running GUI apps in DOS.
If you take an application designed to have multiple document windows open at once (like Photoshop), you'll notice that there is a main (root) window which is usually set to take over the full screen (leaving you with a grey background). Within this root window is all your document windows that can only exist within this root window... and resizing the root window limits what documents you can see.
I know this was one of the oddest things I came across the first time I used Windows. I had been using Apple, NeXT and SGI computers for almost 10 years before I used a Windows system. And I had also been using Photoshop on both Apple and SGI systems up to that point, so the rooted app environment of Windows took me by surprise. On both Apple and SGI systems I could always see other applications in the background while working in Photoshop... and seeing as I was almost always preparing an image for use in another application, having that other app visible helped me prepare the image for where it was going. But in Windows, I could never see beyond Photoshop's root window.
As has been pointed out, this has the tendency of defeating multitasking.
But I would also point out that this absolutely has it's place in the computing world. Full screen apps are perfect for gamers, secretaries and data entry people... all of whom rarely multitask and who are more productive when protected from distractions (well, more productive except in the case of the gamers I guess).
Generally what I've seen is that Windows users have a phobia of seeing the desktop or other apps while working in one app. Back when I serviced Windows systems I was always amazed to see people with navigation windows at full screen. And in one case I got an emergency call from a secretary who, after getting a new large display, was unable to work on her system because her database app no longer maximized to full screen. The app was designed to go full screen only at 800x600, the fix (to get her working again) was to set her 19" display to 800x600. You could read the text on the screen from across the room.
I think most Windows users missed the "desktop" metaphor for computers... which may be why Windows users call their desktops walls (as in wallpaper) rather than desktop (as in desktop images). On a computer, document windows are like papers on a desk. You can move them around, shuffle their order, put some away while working on others... like how we used to work at desks before we had computers.
But if we attempt to apply this metaphor to the Windows world, what we end up with is a desk where every document (from your standard letter to PostIt notes) is 3 feet by 6 feet... covering the whole desk. Why would I want a letter to be the size of a poster? Why would I want a PostIt note to be the size of a poster?
But of course, in the Windows world, their desktop metaphor is a wall so I would guess that posters are what they are thinking they really need.
Well, you're on the right track but need a little guidance with your theory. You're right: having a window running fullscreen does help one from becoming distracted by other windows. But that's not because they aren't multitasking. But rather because they are. Hence having other windows in the background which could cause distractions, etc. If I'm only running one program, then there's not a lot to distract me, therefore its window doesn't need maximising. This applies to both my OS X environment and XP environment. If there's three spreadsheets open simultaneously on my desktop, and they contain a lot of numbers and they're side by side, it can get very confusing - so it just makes sense to maximise the one being used so the others don't interfere with concentration, etc.RacerX said:
Hmm, I've never heard of the desktop being referred to as a 'wall' before. A wallpaper is called a wallpaper because it covers a large blank area - kind of like wallpaper in a house. You'll see that Microsoft also refers to the desktop as the desktop.RacerX said:
You had some really good points though. Just a shame you got confused along the way. Did you have too many windows open at the same time?
Most applications don't require taking over the whole display. Other than kiosk-style applications or data entry applications, I don't see the need and find them annoying in Windows.
The zoom box (button now?) is set by the developer to appropriate resolutions for the application.
Why must everything work like Windows anyway?
The zoom box (button now?) is set by the developer to appropriate resolutions for the application.
Why must everything work like Windows anyway?
Actually, you have helped... but maybe not in the way you thought you were.PCMacUser said:
Well, beyond the fact that you are talking about three documents in a single application and I'm talking about several documents in several applications... I'd point out that spreadsheets are often the type of thing that you find secretaries/data entry people using.
Further, I don't know if you are old enough to recall when spreadsheets were sheets of paper in ledgers, but they were in fact large sheets in big books that in fact did take over real desktops, covering everything else.
But I still don't see were you need it to block out everything to the point that Windows full screen mode does.
Yeah... I think Windows is the perfect platform for spreadsheet people. So I guess we can safely add accountants to secretaries/data entry/gamers as people who would find the Windows environment preferable to the Mac.
Wallpaper is called Wallpaper because Microsoft was deliberately using different terms for items in their OS to show that they weren't stealing from other operating systems. Quite a few of the GUI mistakes of Windows were a direct result of this (and Microsoft wasn't the only company that made questionable choices in the name of being different).
I guess I'd be classed a spreadsheet user - I'm known as the Excel geek in the office - although I'm often working across a number of applications - whether writing up results from a spreadsheet, running a data app to pull out more data, sending an email referring to a spreadsheet, checking information online to add into Excel.
And I use Windows in the office - not being able to have interleaving windows in an app makes it very hard to do all those things. I have a dual-screen set up there since some of the spreadsheets can be 50 or so columns wide and I waste so much time switching back and forth from full double screen to single width in order to switch apps depending on my task. If the windows were single entities rather than all within one program, it would make life much much easier.
- although I'm often working across a number of applications - whether writing up results from a spreadsheet, running a data app to pull out more data, sending an email referring to a spreadsheet, checking information online to add into Excel.And I use Windows in the office - not being able to have interleaving windows in an app makes it very hard to do all those things. I have a dual-screen set up there since some of the spreadsheets can be 50 or so columns wide and I waste so much time switching back and forth from full double screen to single width in order to switch apps depending on my task. If the windows were single entities rather than all within one program, it would make life much much easier.
I thought your post was excellent and probably described the feelings of some Windows users perfectly. The "root window" setup in many Windows apps is exactly one of the reasons I can't be as productive in that OS. The apps that benefit from such a mode tend to have their own full screen options anyway. Like Photoshophit 'f' and go full screen with a 50% gray background. Perfect (but only sometimes).RacerX said:
MacOS has a great feature called "Hide", been there for as long a I can remember. I use it fairly often to get rid of the windows I don't need to see, like iTunes or Mail, while I'm working.
