I would say, based on some comments in this thread, that the main problem with running Windows on a Mac is that Mac people just doesn't know to to configure Windows properly. This leads to a number of problems which people seem to believe are shortcomings of Windows instead of the user.
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Mbp vs modern windows laptops
- Thread starter Samtb
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Uh, I see no evidence of that whatsoever. Part of the difficulty of installing Windows on a Mac is that there is only minimal driver support provided. Especially on a laptop, tight integration with the host hardware is essential to having a good experience - both with the hardware performance, sleep performance, battery life, etc. With none of that stuff optimized for the Mac hardware, the experience is going to be mediocre at best.
There are countless facts and evidence that Windoze is inferior to OS X and that the specs of a similarly priced Windoze laptop is inferior to the rMBP.
Correct. As there are countless facts and evidence of the opposite. Again, opinions are not facts, I respect that you like OSX better than windows buy not everyone would agree with that.
That said, I recently bought an MBP15 to run Windows, after several failed attempts to find a real PC that was better at running windows than a MBP.
Then you need to read again, stuff like optimizing background tasks in windows is doable but requires knowledge. OS X is more consumer oriented than windows and thus more user friendly to the average user.
I do however agree with you about Apples drivers not being all that they could have been, which is unfortunate but perhaps not surprising. Still, I don't know of a PC better suitable for running Windows than a Mac, which is it itself quite shocking. Or perhaps I should say all in all, counting in factors as build quality etc which isn't really related to Windows.
I see absolutely no difficulty in putting Windows on a Mac. It's so easy a novice could do it. Start the Bootcamp agent, insert your USB, it puts the Mac drivers on it, chose your partition size, insert your install disc, restart Mac, install windows with like two mouse clicks, run the Mac drivers setup from the USB, restart Windows, voila. The Mac drivers are not optimized for Windows because OSX software is optimized specifically for the hardware found in Mac's. With that said, this mediocre experience is subjective. Windows has never been a "fun" OS. I find the experience the same as on a PC machine just smoother and with less clutter. A plus is that you can optimize power performance for battery saving or optimal. I should run benchmarks on Windows and OSX on my MBP otherwise, everything is really just opinion.
i love my mbp15 ..when on osx, simply love it, but windows 8.1 pro(bootcamp), here, =constant noise (fan), that for me would be a turn off iff i only wanted windows.
Installing Windows is not 'difficult'. The 'difficult' part is that because of the lack of optimized drivers, you never get a fully optimized experience. I thought my post made that pretty clear.
That's kind of the problem, it very easy to install windows on a Mac these days so anyone can do it. But that doesn't mean they know how to configure it once installed, thus they get quite a lot of problems and some seem to blaim Windows when they perhaps should focus that energy elsewhere.
My fans also spun constantly when running windows 8.1 after fresh Boot Camp installation. Until I changed the windows configuration. Now they only run when when they should, ie after longer periods of heavy usage.
Thank you for proving my point of "installing Windows isn't knowing windows" though
I do believe that for someone not feeling comfortable with managing more complex "settings" in windows, running Windows through Parallels etc is a much better option than using Boot camp.
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I would guess that it's really the other way around buy never mind that
we seem to agree on Apples poor drivers.That's why Windoze is crap. People who buy expensive laptops should expect their machines to run flawlessly OOTB and that no need to tinker with all that POS crap that is Windoze. Well some people are happy and love to make their lives complicated so they are extremely happy with tinkering with Windoze and that it never runs flawlessly no matter what they do. They could've just run it as VM so there is no need to configure it.
My fans also spun constantly when running windows 8.1 after fresh Boot Camp installation. Until I changed the windows configuration. Now they only run when when they should, ie after longer periods of heavy usage.
Thank you for proving my point of "installing Windows isn't knowing windows" though
How many Windoze users know how to configure that POS? Again after some time the OS will choke and needed to reformat again. The biggest issue is that the default settings are horrible and will always be horrible.
Let me guess, if you tried to drive a F1 car and crashed in the first corner (as I would), you would blame the car?
Windoze is not perfect OOTB unlike the F1 which is already tweaked to maximum performance. There is a valid reason to blame yourself for crashing the F1, but it's not the same for Windoze since Windoze is already broken OOTB and especially after the frustrating Windoze updates that bloates the OS, creates glitches and problems and cripples the performance of the machine.
I'll admit in the past this was the case but Microsoft's offering has come along way over the last few years.
Having to fresh format/install everything every 2-3 months was quite normal, nowadays I can get away with it for much more (I've had installs last 2 years without issues, and still going even after that).
I'm not saying Windows is perfect, but we cannot say OS X is perfect either. Both are for different target markets.
A YouTube laptop reviewer always says "If you primarily use OS X get a Mac, if you primarily use Windows, get a Windows machine" and I couldn't agree more.
For some personal addition to this, I love my Mac, but I primarily use Windows and so it's pointless for me to use a Mac if I really do not need it. As well as using programs that just straight aren't available for Mac. Sure, Parallels is an option but I find it quite clunky, and it drains battery like no tomorrow.
What do you mean optimized experience? What part of the Windows experience am I missing out on because I am running it on a MBP?
What's there to configure apart from installing the Bootcamp drivers? Every Windows user has to configure their Windows build to suit their preferences ie what programs open what files, when the computer goes to sleep etc...just like every user has to configure their OSX to meet similar demands.
EDIT: I misunderstood you. Pretty much you're saying their not used to using Windows.
Oh, here are the benchmarks, the MBP performs better running WINDOWS surprise surprise:
32 win
http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/2963858
64 win
http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/2963871
32 osx
http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/2963922
64 osx
http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/2963944
EDIT: I did have to enable hyperthreading on Windows manually so I don't know if that affects anything but hyperthreading is on by default on OSX so it's only fair to run both tests with similar configurations.
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What's there to configure apart from installing the Bootcamp drivers? Every windows user has to configure their Windows built to suit their preferences just like every user has to configure their OSX to meet their personal preferences.[/QUOTE]
What he probably meant is to tinker with disabling unnecessary services (i.e. looking at black viper settings online), custom power plans, disabling some scheduled tasks, playing with msconfig and gpedit.msc to turn off some crappy background tasks that sucks the life out of the CPU, HDD space and the battery when the machine is idle or in use, turning off javascript and adobe "display pdf in browser" to prevent drive-by-download pdf trojan, using device manager to configure Bluetooth or WiFi so that it never disconnects while streaming, etc. etc.
Only tinkerers and people who love to complicate their lives know those things. An average user will have no clue why their PC slow then they would install some bogus software that does not do anything to make their PC run like new again.
OS X doesn't need any of those crap which is why people (except PC gamers) who have deep pockets buy Macs.
What he probably meant is to tinker with disabling unnecessary services (i.e. looking at black viper settings online), custom power plans, disabling some scheduled tasks, playing with msconfig and gpedit.msc to turn off some crappy background tasks that sucks the life out of the CPU, HDD space and the battery when the machine is idle or in use, turning off javascript and adobe "display pdf in browser" to prevent drive-by-download pdf trojan, using device manager to configure Bluetooth or WiFi so that it never disconnects while streaming, etc. etc.
Only tinkerers and people who love to complicate their lives know those things. An average user will have no clue why their PC slow then they would install some bogus software that does not do anything to make their PC run like new again.
OS X doesn't need any of those crap which is why people (except PC gamers) who have deep pockets buy Macs.
Trackpad drivers that are optimized for the hardware. Bluetooth that works.
Even those aren't really what I'm talking about. Battery life on an Apple laptop is generally a lot better than on a generic Windows build because there is a tight integration between the hardware and software. The Surface Pro has this done better than most Windows laptops, and it shows as well. Any OEM has a suite of drivers for the specific hardware that is installed. This is NOT bloatware - this is driver-level stuff - optimizing boot times, optimizing sleep (how many people have had sleep issues with Windows computers - especially generic installs? TONS because sleep is heavily tied to every single driver operating properly and interacting with every other driver properly.) When you install Windows onto a Mac, you are getting the vanilla Windows install that is designed to generally work on any x86 hardware configuration ever made. You think that's as optimized as it can possibly get??
Couldn't agree more, both Windows and OS X have their strenghts and weaknesses. What each person prefers is a matter of personal OPINION.
Counting in build quality etc I actually was not able to find a better PC than a MBP. Others might not agree though.
Yes, you are mostly correct about configuration. What we have to remeber is that most Windows users (propably something like 95% but I'm guessing now) NEVER install Windows. They buy a PC with pre-configured Windows with optimized drivers etc. and doesn't really make more changes than what Windows update tell them. This is not the case for people running Windows on Bootcamp.
Wow sounds like a lot of stuff. But any modern CPU can handle that...My CPU on windows is at 7% and I'm running SQL management studio, visual studio, 3 instances of microsoft word, itunes, and chrome....However ram is at 41% but that's expected because I have a bunch of programs open. I haven't tinkered with anything from my last install except change the idle time for the screen to shut off and installed some programs and as you see, 7% CPU usage...Or are we just talking about windows laptops with windows installed?
Ok, I understand the trackpad thing...but what other hardware is different in a pc laptop than a macbook apart from maybe the graphics card? What is this "suite of drivers?" You mean like Mcafee, free trial of so and so, games etc. Boot times? There's no BIOS or POSTS on a MBP windows install....Sleep times? It's under control panel. This isn't rocket science. Maximum optimization? It's running perfect and every windows install I've put on this MBP has always ran perfect so what more do I need? I think theres more thought being put into this than is needed. Oh, and my bluetooth microsoft mouse took like 5 seconds to pair up to my MBP bootcamp partition.
True, most windows users don't need to install anything on their laptop/pc but a windows install is like 30 minutes and the bootcamp drivers take 5 minutes. It's REALLY not that difficult.
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Installing Windows isn't a problem but optimizing it can be for an average user. Like installing Trackpad++ to enable Force Touch in Windows and similar. Most users probably would assume like many in this thread that "it doesn't work on windows so windows sucks" when infact its more a matter of user knowledge HOW to get it to work.
It seems to boil down to three choices with Windows laptops:
1: Relatively inexpensive, but loaded with crapware. Since the crapware vendors pay the PC maker to bundle their stuff, it can result in a lower price for the consumer.
2: The laptop mentioned in #1, except with a clean install of Windows, which will take finding the right drivers and tweaking to get performing optimally, especially with regards to power features.
3: A more expensive laptop that is ready to go, with drivers, decent OS, and no crapware.
I have found that if you go for something comparable in as many ways as possible (Bluetooth, Thunderbolt, RAM, CPU, fast SSD), the PC laptop winds up being as expensive, if not more, than a MBP. Don't forget customer service, as for something comparable to Apple's support, it takes a business line computer (Optiplex, Latitude) and an upgraded support agreement. Comparing (pardon the pun) Apples to Apples, at the range where Apple's products are, they are actually slightly lower in cost than the competition.
1: Relatively inexpensive, but loaded with crapware. Since the crapware vendors pay the PC maker to bundle their stuff, it can result in a lower price for the consumer.
2: The laptop mentioned in #1, except with a clean install of Windows, which will take finding the right drivers and tweaking to get performing optimally, especially with regards to power features.
3: A more expensive laptop that is ready to go, with drivers, decent OS, and no crapware.
I have found that if you go for something comparable in as many ways as possible (Bluetooth, Thunderbolt, RAM, CPU, fast SSD), the PC laptop winds up being as expensive, if not more, than a MBP. Don't forget customer service, as for something comparable to Apple's support, it takes a business line computer (Optiplex, Latitude) and an upgraded support agreement. Comparing (pardon the pun) Apples to Apples, at the range where Apple's products are, they are actually slightly lower in cost than the competition.