MCX Confirms Retailer Exclusivity for CurrentC Mobile Payments, but No Fines for Leaving Consortium

[donny77]

You can go back to even 1-year old NFC threads where NFC was pounded by this crowd. It's stupid. It's insecure. Why would I want a much thicker phone to get NFC that I would never use? And on and on (this crowd is great at spinning a thousand reasons against something before Apple has it). Where's all that NFC bashing now? Now, we rail against some retailers for turning it off with posts like "I'll never buy anything from them unless I can pay with Apple Pay".

- Apple Pay has more security feature than any prior NFC system,
- The Phone got thinner while adding NFC

Seems like Apple addressed every concern raised.... Just saying. Technologies evolve and what Apple does well is adopt technologies when it makes sense. The result of that is the "fan-boyism" that tends to occur. I didn't want a bigger screen iPhone when I got my 5. I didn't give it much thought at the 5s launch as I buy every other upgrade. Before Apple announced the 6 and 6 plus though I was wanting a bigger screen. My usage had changed. Remember the iPad was developed before the iPhone. The iPhone was released first because Apple realized how the iPhone would pave the way for the iPad.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Relative to post #400, this is point of view stuff. For example, Apple knows every app you've purchased in the iTunes store, every video you've purchased, every song. Is that nefarious for them to know or OK? In the Mac App store, they also know every app you've purchased for your Mac. Is that nefarious or OK?

While collecting and sharing purchasing data can easily be spun negative, it can also be spun as positive. Since the former is thoroughly well done in this thread, how could knowing what one purchases be used for the positive? There's a whole industry of loyalty cards and similar built around this very idea. If stores notice that I buy certain products every month and they get some kind of manufacturers coupon for those products, they might share it with me without me having to search through a newspaper to maybe find those same coupons. If stores can notice that I buy certain things on sale, maybe I get alerts when those things are on sale again. That's all relevant advertising, which can be much more beneficial- even preferable- than generic (uninformed) advertising.

Now sure, we can spin all kinds of negatives into this too. Google knows lots of stuff about all of us based on where we go on the web, where we spend time, etc. That could be used for good or bad. But Google has been accumulating such knowledge for years (a decade +) and what's the worse that happened to us consumers from them having such rich information about us? When will the nefarious play by them using that knowledge come down upon us?

It's easy to argue either side. And again, this is a concept of a product, not a finished product. So rumored elements of the product may or may not make it into the final product. In the other thread, the leaders behind it talk about being able to opt out of such tracking, to use credit cards, to use Apple Pay and so on (much of which the nay-sayers are spinning as part of fueling the rally against something they haven't even seen yet). The other thread is already stuffed with hundreds of posts much like this one, pretty much overwhelmingly against something that doesn't even exist yet.

Once again, I'll remind anyone that they should go search for NFC threads from a year or more ago. They too are packed with many of the same, passionately negative arguments against NFC (before Apple baked it into iPhones). Now that Apple has delivered it on Apple hardware, those stances have swung all the way to refusing to shop a store who won't accept Apple Pay. Where's all that NFC is evil, NFC is bad, NFC is useless, NFC is stupid sentiment now? Well, now that Apple has endorsed it, none of that bashing can apply anymore... so "we" moved on to bashing other things that Apple has not yet endorsed.

Relative to #401, so if CurrentC makes it and Apple decides to make Apple Pay work with that platform too, will you hold all of these same hard stances against it or will it then be OK because "technology evolved" and once Apple decided to make it work within Apple Pay, all of these issues will no longer apply?

That's how this works. Something comes out that is perceived against Apple and the herd rails hard against it. We had about 5 of these threads today:
-somebody using an iWatch trademark is Europe is so wrong to do so (doesn't matter if they had that trademark before Apple announced it's watch),
-2 or 3 of these MCX threads today where MCX is totally in the wrong in every way possible.
-another GT Advanced Technologies thread packed with > 100 posts pretty much casting the GT team as complete crooks while Apple is lily white
Yes, this is an Apple-oriented website. But wow, do we need THAT much bias?

There's also a post about AT&T & Verizon using "perma-cookies" for upwards of 2+ years to track our web activity. Relatively, there's much less railing against them than against this CurrentC thing or the iWatch trademark holder. Apparently, we're scared to death about some future incarnation of this vaporware being used to somehow exploit us but we're much less concerned about the actual user tracking for years now by the 2 dominant players in the cell phone space??? Go figure.

 

[flat five]

Underneath it is big banks who are masters at making tons of money without having to make any tangible product.

heh, well, they make a product which is widely accepted as tangible --- money

the federal reserve is a bank.. it's not a branch of government nor are its policies governed by any branch of government.. it is a nothing but the biggest bank of all (and growing)..

so yeah, banks make tons of money and they make tons of money.. if that makes any sense

 

[ee4life]

It's easy to argue either side. And again, this is a concept of a product, not a finished product. So rumored elements of the product may or may not make it into the final product. In the other thread, the leaders behind it talk about being able to opt out of such tracking, to use credit cards, to use Apple Pay and so on (much of which the nay-sayers are spinning as part of fueling the rally against something they haven't even seen yet). The other thread is already stuffed with hundreds of posts much like this one, pretty much overwhelmingly against something that doesn't even exist yet.

The service has presumably been in development for years. They are in pilot beta testing with merchants. They are supposed to launch in just a few months. While I won't say drastic change is impossible, at this stage in the game it is unlikely. The sheer scale of the project dictates how much it can change in such a short time frame. Even iterative changes to existing product lines can take a long time to design, develop, and test. A major overhaul in less than six months? It will probably either suffer in quality or cost a fortune. That's the nature of product development.

And said "leaders" contradict this morning's blog post on the MCX website. Maybe they've just had a sudden change of heart. Maybe it has something to do with all the bad press from various sources, including those outside of Apple fan sites.

And quite frankly, I'm a little surprised at people giving this a pass just because it isn't in full public release. I personally would think it's better for concerns to be aired now, before the service is available, so that MCX understands what people do and do not want. Right now this situation is a disaster for them, but I won't deny them a chance to eventually spin it into a positive. If they listen to what critics are saying, provide better transparency regarding the service, and make good on their recent promises for options, then everyone wins.

 

[rodriguise]

Honestly, anyone foolish enough to use this solution deserves to have their accounts wiped out.

 

[tattooedyuppie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awv-diup9oc

haha! Exactly!

 

[PFGF]

Tech Support to Cash Register

Can't wait for users of CurrentC to need tech support from CVS cashiers.

 

[fongkahchun86]

Function the same as passbook:

 

[kilcher]

Bottom line for me... I am NOT giving them my DL number. I am NOT giving them my SSN. Regardless of how well it works that's a deal breaker for me, I trust these people about as far as I can throw them. Highly doubt this will be widely adopted due to those limitations, not to mention the fact many can't face the reality of how much they're actually spending by having it deducted from their checking account vs. going on a credit card.

 

[rolphi]

While collecting and sharing purchasing data can easily be spun negative, it can also be spun as positive.

The relevant arguments in this thread are not on the absolute merits of collecting purchasing data. This is also not a black and white argument. Most people agree that data collection should be voluntary not coercive, transparent, have documented privacy policies about how the data is used and sold, and provide benefit for the consumer not just for the collector. What is your take on how well CurrentC, ApplePay and Google Wallet address these concerns?

And again, this is a concept of a product, not a finished product.

CurrentC is in beta release to the public. It is well past "concept".

Once again, I'll remind anyone that they should go search for NFC threads from a year or more ago. They too are packed with many of the same, passionately negative arguments against NFC (before Apple baked it into iPhones). Now that Apple has delivered it on Apple hardware, those stances have swung all the way to refusing to shop a store who won't accept Apple Pay.

Contrary to your assumption, the forums here are not a unified mass with a single opinion. You are not fighting an organized enemy with talking points. It is not hypocrisy or a flip-flopping opinion that you can point to and claim some kind of debate foul. If you read the forums you can get a general idea of this segment's public opinion on most topics. Here is something you need to understand: public opinion changes all the time. It is not rational. It doesn't regret being illogical. If you would like to research past threads and find specific posters with specific opinions that now are apparently changed, you may get that person (good luck) to address why they had a change of heart.

Where's all that NFC is evil, NFC is bad, NFC is useless, NFC is stupid sentiment now?

Can I blow your mind a bit here? It's possible that people still believe that NFC is all of those things, but the benefits of ApplePay, security especially, outweigh the drawbacks and therefore they support ApplePay. Again, this issue is not black and white. People in general should not have opinions on technology per se, but on what it can do for them. It is logically consistent to say NFC in its old implementation was useless to me, but in this new implementation is useful to me, and not be regarded as a hypocrite, Apple zealot, etc.

If CurrentC makes it and Apple decides to make Apple Pay work with that platform too, will you hold all of these same hard stances against it or will it then be OK because "technology evolved" and once Apple decided to make it work within Apple Pay, all of these issues will no longer apply?

Yes? Is there anything wrong with that? If CurrentC makes it so that I can use my phone to pay with ApplePay, use a credit card with all its protections, I can remain anonymous to the merchant where all they get is a token and no credit card or other personal identification, I do not have to give any data to CurrentC to set it up, and I still get the coupons and discounts offered, then yes I will change my opinion on CurrentC. That's what adults do. When the situation changes and new data is presented, they reevaluate their opinions.

But at this point, we have merchants who a week ago offered me a useful service and have now taken that away for apparently their own reasons, and I think people are appropriately reacting to that. So are a lot of people apparently, because this tech issue is being widely reported in mainstream media.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

dead horse??? Meet stick.

 

[SR22pilot]

While collecting and sharing purchasing data can easily be spun negative, it can also be spun as positive. Since the former is thoroughly well done in this thread, how could knowing what one purchases be used for the positive?
There's also a post about AT&T & Verizon using "perma-cookies" for upwards of 2+ years to track our web activity. Relatively, there's much less railing against them than against this CurrentC thing or the iWatch trademark holder. Apparently, we're scared to death about some future incarnation of this vaporware being used to somehow exploit us but we're much less concerned about the actual user tracking for years now by the 2 dominant players in the cell phone space??? Go figure.

I just included a snippet in hopes you will reply. My questions cover several of your posts.

1) Do you have a work or other financial relationship with the CurrentC initiative?

2) Can you please address the security issue of allowing direct access to your bank account. I don't have a problem with eliminating the credit card companies IF, big IF, you can give me the same fraud protection and overdraft protection. Even with overdraft protection on my checking account I get dinged if that protection gets used. You have sidestepped these questions.

3) You say MCX isn't blocking Apple Pay. I strongly disagree. Apple allows the CurrentC app and doesn't block it. I can't use Apple Pay at stores that are perfectly capable of accepting it. Besides, your argument to point back at Apple is sort of like the kid saying "But Billy's mom says he can jump off of the cliff." Blocking Apple Pay is plain wrong and I am working hard to get people to boycott stores that are blocking Apple Pay. Saying "But others do wrong things too." won't make it right.

I hope you will respond to these questions - especially #1

 

[BruiserB]

MCX Confirms Retailer Exclusivity for CurrentC Mobile Payments, but No Fines ...

MCX is blocking ApplePay....confirmed by MCX today. See update at bottom of story.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1811576/

 

[rolphi]

dead horse??? Meet stick.

Only in MCX's wildest PR dreams is this a dead horse. Care to respond to my questions?

 

[hudson1]

hudson1, believe whatever you want. Deciding not to take payments by NFC is not any kind of offense. Sellers can take or not take any form of payment. These businesses are conceptually turning away business. They could choose not to sell anything to anyone in any way if they like. There is no obligation to sell anything.

If the Feds are "taking a closer look at MCX", it's not because the Feds want to help Apple. If that's actually happening, that's probably the big banks ordering- er, I mean- asking their buddies in the government to put some pressure on a group that might be trying to prevent the big banks from continuing to get the cash flow from the system "as is"... a so-called "protecting my turf" tactic that should be at least as illegal as anything you think you read into that.

The buying time analogy with Apple is putting things down until they get their version of it out. If you want something closer than that, it's Apple not allowing say- Google Maps- in the app store until some time after Apple Maps was out (or any other app that challenged something from Apple).

Or if we want to imply MCX is doing something so wrong that the Feds are "looking into it", the FEDs actually got after Apple for the book pricing thing and that involved Apple "conspiring" with book publishers to basically raise the prices of books for consumers. Remember that? No? Here's a link: http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/17/technology/apple-ebook-settlement/index.html

So if we want to imply wrongdoing, we have actual actions of the Feds against Apple vs. an insinuation that the Feds might be looking into something within MCX. Actual tends to weigh more than insinuation (but probably not with you).

When someone resorts to ad hominem attack, you know they lost the argument.

 

[caesarp]

MCX is blocking ApplePay....confirmed by MCX today. See update at bottom of story.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1811576/

The update doesn't say MCX is blocking Apple Pay. It says that if a consortium member does accept apple pay, they get booted out.

So, in effect they are -- in that the consortium member could lose its hefty investment in CurrentC/MCX should it accept Apple Pay. This is probably why RiteAid and CVS pulled out. They were likely reminded of this provision and chose to stay, for the time being, with MCX.

 

[Patriot24]

http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/30/mcx-apple-pay/

And so it begins.

 

[Amplelink]

Seems so many are missing why retailers want a system like this and not Apple Pay. Apple Pay makes thing anonymous. Right now you have retailers like Target that track every purchase you make based on your credit card. This means they can mine the big data and do things like send you coupons based on what you buy. They can see when you visit and see how your visits and purchases increase when they send you coupons or flyers or emails. Here is an older story about how Target's use of big data allowed them to send coupons to a girl that had just become pregnant before even her parents knew. With Apple Pay, your purchase is anonymous. They no longer know who you are so they can't tie that transaction to your profile anymore.

Yes the transaction fee is a hit to them but the above is much bigger. The above has the potential to make them much more than they'll lose in transaction fees.

Are you sure this is true? I thought Apple Pay was just a more secure means of payment. Target can track you if you have a RedCard but how would they track you otherwise? Just simply matching credit card info to purchases does nothing unless they have a way to contact you.

 

[caesarp]

http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/30/mcx-apple-pay/

And so it begins.

Yes, hopefully other more prominent MCX members start dropping out too.

 

[HEK]

Congrats to Meijer for putting the customer first and keeping NFC up and running for Google Wallet, Apple Pay and other Nfc transactions. Let's all support Meijer's decision even though they are part of the MCX consortium.

Curious to see how they will be punished by MCX.

 

[kdarling]

If CurrentC makes it so that I can use my phone to pay with ApplePay, use a credit card with all its protections, I can remain anonymous to the merchant where all they get is a token and no credit card or other personal identification, I do not have to give any data to CurrentC to set it up, and I still get the coupons and discounts offered, then yes I will change my opinion on CurrentC.

I liked the rest of your post, but I couldn't understand this part.

The whole point of sending out personalized coupons and discounts, is to draw us into their store. To do that, they need to know what we like from previous purchases, and how to contact us with coupons.

(For example, CVS's computers know I'm a sucker for their battery sales. This is partly because of all the power outages we have, and partly because of all the powered toys the grandkids have. Thus I get great battery coupons, because they know I usually buy other stuff as well.)

I mean sure, we should be able to opt out of giving our name, but then we shouldn't expect coupons and discounts meant to reward loyal customers.

The same idea is behind Apple's iBeacons. By knowing who we are and what we like, the store can present coupons and sales of interest as we walk around.

 

[mantan]

I liked the rest of your post, but I couldn't understand this part.

The whole point of sending out personalized coupons and discounts, is to draw us into their store. To do that, they need to know what we like from previous purchases, and how to contact us with coupons.

(For example, CVS's computers know I'm a sucker for their battery sales. This is partly because of all the power outages we have, and partly because of all the powered toys the grandkids have. Thus I get great battery coupons, because they know I usually buy other stuff as well.)

I mean sure, we should be able to opt out of giving our name, but then we shouldn't expect coupons and discounts meant to reward loyal customers.

The same idea is behind Apple's iBeacons. By knowing who we are and what we like, the store can present coupons and sales of interest as we walk around.

For me it's all about choice. I have no problem putting in my number when I'm conducting a transaction to get loyalty points/discounts or to track my spending. What I don't want is to have my payment method for tied to that discount program.

If it's between 'deeper discounts' and the consumer protection and anonymity of credit debit cards vs. ACH, it's a easy decision.

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

Are you sure this is true? I thought Apple Pay was just a more secure means of payment. Target can track you if you have a RedCard but how would they track you otherwise? Just simply matching credit card info to purchases does nothing unless they have a way to contact you.

You get all kinds of great customer info when they swipe their credit card. You know their card number, their name, and their zip code. Then you buy a customer mailing list and associate the names and zip codes with those that you have from the transactions you've processed. So now you know the address of James Johnson. Now whenever they swipe their card, you've associated those purchases with others from the same card or same profile. They use a different card? No problem because you can fairly quickly relate the same or similar purchases, times of visit and location to the new card for a James Johnson to the data you already have.

Even those that don't get that advanced can still build a more basic profile. They can still see that credit card number ending 3829 shops every Sunday and buys these items. It allows them to see which items people in certain zip codes buy most often and which they may want to put on sale or market to a certain area. They can still build a whole profile around that card number even if they can't attach a name like the more advanced retailers do.

RedCard is awesome for them to be able to data mine but it's also a loyalty thing. If you can get someone to sign up for your in-store card, they will spend more money with you. For instance, Amazon Prime members spend about 4x more than the normal Amazon buyer.

With Apple Pay, you can do none of the above as you can't associate a purchase to a particular person. So not only do you have to pay an additional group for processing the transaction (Apple) but you also lose the much more valuable customer data that would allow you to send them advertising and coupons that will increase the frequency and value of their purchases.

 

[Breaking Good]

How do swipe fees affect them now anyway? I'm sure its part of their pricing model, just like any overhead they have, like for salaries, electricity, etc. So we cover it now anyway. Its really about getting your customer data. I think the swipe fees are a red herring. Its not like they are losing money now with the swipe fees. They are still profitable businesses.

You've notpaid attention to the number of retail chains that have gone out of business over the years, have you?

I realize stores are trying to maximize profit. I'm not concerned with them tracking what I purchase from them. Heck, I expect Apple to do it so that when I go to their store for service they know the ownership and history of my device. Do you really want to hold on to your receipt for two years to prove you have AppleCare on you device?

 

[caesarp]

You've notpaid attention to the number of retail chains that have gone out of business over the years, have you?

I realize stores are trying to maximize profit. I'm not concerned with them tracking what I purchase from them. Heck, I expect Apple to do it so that when I go to their store for service they know the ownership and history of my device. Do you really want to hold on to your receipt for two years to prove you have AppleCare on you device?

I don't think they went out of business due to swipe fees.