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Re: Good idea, bad product

Originally posted by greenstork
I think M$ is on the right track but obviously a standalone PC to do the task of recording, playback movies, etc. is all wrong for the reasons mentioned in this thread. However, the ideas are outstanding. Look at what we are talking about:

1. recording and playback of TV, just like a Tivo. Equipped with the ability to watch one program and record 1-3 other programs simultaneously.

So long as those are over-the-air or standard cable probrams. No Digital Cable support; no Satellite support. You can buy or rent TiVO's with such built-in support from most cable and satellite providers.

It is far easier to convince a content provider to integrate with your recording device when they know that it is hard to pull recorded content off your device for use elsewhere. This is why you see no legal satellite or paid-cable decoder cards for PCs, and quite likely never will (not for many years, at least).

Again, I think that for these reasons amongst others, that's why TiVO functionality belongs in the ... TiVO ... instead of on your primary multi-purpose computer.


2. movies on-demand. With the exception of the pay-per-view channels on satellite and cable, this is a relatively new and burgeoning market.

May or may not take off. Two constraints: 1) bandwidth (too few homes with broadband now, especially with 3Mbps-ish sustainable and reliable downstream allocations); 2) quality (I don't care what you say; DiVX and WMV "quality" essentially sucks. If you can get a movie down to 500-750MB without degrading the quality to sub-VHS as DiVX and WMV do, then you can start trying to sell that to me ... until then, I'd rather stop by Blockbuster on the way home).

While it would be nice to support these, I don't see the need for this going through my primary computer, or really, through any general-purpose computer at all. There are multiple set-top-box initiatives for streaming video, which are further along than any decent-quality PC-based streaming initiatives.

Again, it is far easier to get a content provider to stream to a set-top box with limitted output capabilities (ie, just to the TV or possibly to an internal TiVO-like HD) than it is to get them to agree to streaming their content out into the wilds of a fully-functioning computer system. If there is one rallying cry amongst content providers today, it is "Control!"


3. Photos, music, digital hub stuff etc etc.

Which is done just as well and sometimes better with a "real" Digital Hub and a TiVO/HM setup. I don't think MS has innovated anything here.


4. Integration with your computer, access to computer files.

Is there really a market for displaying your tax return on the TV screen? You're home budget?

This is the only reason I can sort of see a Media Center PC being useful. On the other hand, even better would be a non-primary connection between the PC and the TV (by non-primary I mean that this connection is not always active, and need not be incredibly high-bandwidth) that allows display on the big-screen TV when necessary but overall is out of the way and ignored the 99% of the time when I don't want my PC's view being mirrored on the TV.


While I think M$ implementation of these concepts is poorly executed by developing a standalone PC, I do think Apple could mac out this setup .

I've been waiting for the next generation of Tivo to do just this, better integrate with my computer. An Apple appliance would be perfect. It serves all the functions of Tivo but also hooks into your computer, the internet, serves up photos, iTunes, recorded TV, movies on demand. It extends the digital hub from your office into your living room. Let's be realistic here, this is a natural and expected extension.

I agree with you here. Yes, the "next generation" of TiVO or TiVO-like devices will better integrate with your computer (allowing off-device archival of files perhaps). Significantly many of these use cases are fulfilled by the Home Media Option of the TiVO 2 (about $50 I believe), which provides a connection for photosand music as well as the usual TiVO things. You have to wait for that type of thing. However, you'll have to wait a significantly smaller amount of time for that than for the Media Center to become cheap and usable.

You also mentioned an Internet connection. While I agree that an Internet connection can be useful for many purposes, I strongly hope you aren't suggesting the old idea of surfing the web from your couch ... the TV resolution is just far too small for a meaningful web-surfing experience. Now, drawing program lists from an online site, keeping you "favorite" channels online instead of in the local box, and even being able to send or stream a low-quality version of recorded content ... those are good uses of an Internet connection. Just dont suggest surfing the web ... :)
 
Disk Warrior for TIVO? :)

We techies know what goes on under the hood, but let's pretend we don't. We should start with this question: What do other consumers and I want to be able to do?

1. We want to see content when we want to see it, rather than when it was broadcast. We don't care whether it is provided on demand, recorded on a dedicated device, or recorded on our computers.

2. We want to watch video on our choice of screen. It might be our main computer monitor, a separate slaved monitor, or our TV screen. We don't care what's putting the signal there.

3. We want to listen on our choice of speakers. They might be part of the computer, a separate audio system, or even a handheld device like the iPod. We don't care how the sound is routed to get there or who is doing the decoding.

4. We want to use portable media to acquire and save our stuff so we can take the data with us when we want to.

5. We want the content that we have the capability to edit to be accessble to our software.

6. We want to use the computer keyboard and/or a handheld device (remote control, iPod, etc.) to program everything and control everything.

7. We don't want wires and cables everywhere, although wires between close-by nonportable devices are fine.

8. We want a socket (a place to plug in) each of our portable devices (cameras, music players, etc.)

If somebody makes this all work, and easy to use, both technies and nontechies will flock to it in, um..., er..., flocks!
 
Re: Re: Good idea, bad product

Originally posted by jettredmont
I agree with you here. Yes, the "next generation" of TiVO or TiVO-like devices will better integrate with your computer (allowing off-device archival of files perhaps).

That's a very bad idea!!!

The ability to "Rip and Save" to a computer has caused everyone a lot of grief!!!

I can just see it now, more and more law suits....
 
Re: Re: Good idea, bad product

Originally posted by jettredmont
Again, I think that for these reasons amongst others, that's why TiVO functionality belongs in the ... TiVO ... instead of on your primary multi-purpose computer.

I too think the idea of adding Tivo to a computer is silly, I am suggesting an Apple appliance or taking Tivo series two to the next level, i.e. more computer integration on distinctly separate appliances.

Again, it is far easier to get a content provider to stream to a set-top box with limitted output capabilities (ie, just to the TV or possibly to an internal TiVO-like HD) than it is to get them to agree to streaming their content out into the wilds of a fully-functioning computer system. If there is one rallying cry amongst content providers today, it is "Control!"

I agree that streaming movies-on demand is the way to go, I never suggested otherwise. I have to say though that I think you're a little off here, people absolutely want movies-on-demand and the market is moving to get that into your home. Agreed that they will need control but perhaps they will bend on this since you can copy a DVD to your VCR now. Any new appliance from Apple or an internet ready Tivo would surely prevent blatant copying digitally. However, they will never prevent recording onto a VCR since we already have that capability.

Which is done just as well and sometimes better with a "real" Digital Hub and a TiVO/HM setup. I don't think MS has innovated anything here.

I wasn't suggesting that M$ innovated, only that they are working with good ideas, i.e. integrating iLife type applications with your television, home audio, etc.

Is there really a market for displaying your tax return on the TV screen? You're home budget?

I guess I was referring to the above point that it would be useful to access files from your computer that include your photos, mp3's, etc. I wasn't really referring to your quicken files or mirroring your computer monitor, I see no use in using an OS X interface on your TV. It needs an interface like DirectTV or Tivo that can tap into files on your computer, that is all I was suggesting here.

You also mentioned an Internet connection. While I agree that an Internet connection can be useful for many purposes, I strongly hope you aren't suggesting the old idea of surfing the web from your couch ... the TV resolution is just far too small for a meaningful web-surfing experience. Now, drawing program lists from an online site, keeping you "favorite" channels online instead of in the local box, and even being able to send or stream a low-quality version of recorded content ... those are good uses of an Internet connection. Just dont suggest surfing the web ... :)

I think that surfing the web from your couch is a stupid idea too and I was not suggesting that at all. I was talking about the ability to stream content, access movies lists, reviews, weather forecasts-on-demand, etc. Whatever you can think of really, but it is IMPORTANT to note that whatever it's used for, that Apple is the brains behind the GUI. It's an appliance for TV and should have a TV interface that people are used to. The difference being that since you can access the internet, that you can pull up what you want, when you want. At first, this is probably information about TV programming or movies, or movies themselves, but as this the computer and home entertainment world further integrate, I could see this system being used as a portal for a lot more information. The integration of TV and home entertainment is inevitable as others on this post have said. At first, I see it as a super enhanced Tivo but as it evolves, you won't be able to distinguish your computer from your TV/Tivo device as it relates to digital media/entertainment.
 
Re: Re: Re: Good idea, bad product

Originally posted by CaptainScarlet
That's a very bad idea!!!

The ability to "Rip and Save" to a computer has caused everyone a lot of grief!!!

I can just see it now, more and more law suits....

I just have to strongly disagree with you there. It's not a bad idea, it's poor execution. If it worked, you'd be excited. All of a sudden, you'd have all the content you wanted from TV programming on your computer and able to access when you want. I agree that computer systems like this have worked poorly but if designed correctly, which we all know that Apple can do, it would be nice. I'd prefer a separate appliance however. A standalone Apple/Tivo llike devidce with a 500GB hard drive that wirelessly connects to my computer for iLife type stuff.
 
Hmmmmm *Watches the super bowl as the alert icon that a critical security patch is now available for install flashes on the screen.
Honey I have to reboot the system I hope you and the boys don't mind....the 20....the 15....the...10.......SAVING SETTINGS.......NOW SHUTTING DOWN WINDOWS*

Yep. Good times ahead. Good times.
 
Originally posted by Analog Kid
Me, for one... Saves me from owning a TV and all the crap that goes with it...

Not saying I'm normal, but a market of at least one exists... :)

Nope, make that TWO.

I use my Cube and a 20 Apple LCD to watch all my dvd's, except for when I toasted my internal dvd drive in the Cube :(

An external "superdrive" fixed that tho :p
 
Originally posted by arn
There was another quote from Jobs that I couldn't find off hand...

Basically, it was one about a refridgerator and a toaster. The technology exists for your refridgerator to also make toast.... but no one wants that.

anyhow... an appropriate quote for this thread.

arn

"The refrigerator and the toaster aren't going to merge. Not everything is going to come together."

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Damn, Time Warner here stuck me with a crappy Motorola digital cable box that can't do anything good.

Was there a delay in getting it?

Originally posted by jettredmont
If it weren't for the fact that the program guide is constantly in need of updating (you press "Guide" and one out of ten times you end up waiting a minute or so for the latest Guide to be downloaded from the satellite ... I NEVER had such a problem with DirecTV!) I would absolutely love Dish ...

My parents have Dish at home and we never had that problem with it.
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac


My parents have Dish at home and we never had that problem with it.

Having DirectTv and Tivo are two different things. on a Tivo system, for whatever reason, accessing the guide can be a pain in the a$$.
 
I sort of agree with the swiss army anaolgy on this one. Just have a nice, cheap, and quiet DVD player and it'll be free of any hassle. As it happens though, I do have a PC in my living room that I use for movies which can't be played on a DVD player or on my G4. There are a lot of independent and foreign films that are downloadable online and only usable on a desktop computer. A Mac would be fine except for the huge number of crazy video formats and subtitle utilities that were only written for Windows. The same goes for HTPC gaming - right now if I want to play Battlefield 1942 on my front projector, a Windows box is the only way to do it.

I have to point out though that seeing the occasional blue screen 7 feet across is enough to give someone a heart attack.
 
firstly....

media center = digital hub

what is the difference, other than physical location of the box?

as long as the thing has usb 2.0 / firewire / memory stick ports, wifi, space for 2 hdd (a la TiVo), optical drive (tied in with xbox), modem, 10/100/1000 ethernet, etc. then I would be a happy boy. thing is, it has to work like a TiVo or a xbox does; plug it in, turn it on, and use it. no BSD's, no beach balls, and no reboots.

tighter system integration will happen eventually. i just don't think M$ or Apple are the ones to provide it. they just don't have the vision. sorry.
 
A Poor Compromise

I think Media Center PCs are a clever marketing trick - but I don't think the majority of people will find them quite as "convenient" idea as they might think.

You use a computer and a TV in fundamentally different ways. You sit close to a computer so you can see the details of what you're working on. But you sit back from a TV so you can see the whole picture.

Who wants a TV at desk height anyway? And who wants to use a computer that's sitting on a knee height stand (or the floor)?

The Media Center PC is an example of a multifunction device that has to compromise to perform any of its functions, and fails to excel in any of them!
 
Originally posted by iPC
firstly....

media center = digital hub

what is the difference, other than physical location of the box?

-iPC

The difference is that a hub is at the senter of the wheel with spokes radiating outward to the edges. The media center tries to be the entire wheel.

Taking that out of analogy and into the current context, this shows a fundamental difference between the current philosophies of Microsoft and Apple. Apple delegates functions to the devices best suited to perform those functions, while Microsoft attempts to provide one-stop-shopping.

Take, for example Outlook. Here is an app that is an emailer, a calendar, and contact manager in one app, we all can agree it is advantageous to have these three functions able to communicate with each other as the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Apple delegates these functions to specialized applications, Mail.app for email, iCal for calendar, and Address Book for contact management - but still allows each of these apps to intercommunicate, and does so as if ther are all in one.

As a project manager I prefer Apple's approach for several reasons:

1. Worms and virii - in Apple's approach, they would be contained and non-communicable.

2. Developement is easier and better managed as each app is developable on their own schedule, and a result of that the version control of the builds is easier to manage. This results in more nimble developement and an overarching simplicity. The aspect the end-user sees to all of this is better performance, faster developement of features, and less complexity.

Ok, now project this into the Media Center. By having a full-blown machine capable of performing the functions of dedicated components (that I already own) at far more the price, with far less the performance (due to the compexity of the software that is necesasary to support such an all-in-one device), I find it difficult to justify.

Apples approach, and I agree they need to start one, would be to have a set-top controller that allows these standard components (DVD paler, Receiver, CD player, VCR, TiVo, etc.) to do what they do best, and simply act as a command center that is slimmer (physically as well as functionally) that allows distribution. Also, if one of the devices goes down, don't sacrifice my whole A/V system while it is getting repaired.

Two aspects to [both Outlook and] the Media Center that stick in my craw is the danger of having one's "Eggs in one basket", and the "Jack of all trades: Good at everything, master of nothing".
 
Originally posted by patrick0brien
-iPC

The difference is that a hub is at the senter of the wheel with spokes radiating outward to the edges. The media center tries to be the entire wheel.

Taking that out of analogy and into the current context, this shows a fundamental difference between the current philosophies of Microsoft and Apple. Apple delegates functions to the devices best suited to perform those functions, while Microsoft attempts to provide one-stop-shopping.

Take, for example Outlook. Here is an app that is an emailer, a calendar, and contact manager in one app, we all can agree it is advantageous to have these three functions able to communicate with each other as the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Apple delegates these functions to specialized applications, Mail.app for email, iCal for calendar, and Address Book for contact management - but still allows each of these apps to intercommunicate, and does so as if ther are all in one.

As a project manager I prefer Apple's approach for several reasons:

1. Worms and virii - in Apple's approach, they would be contained and non-communicable.

2. Developement is easier and better managed as each app is developable on their own schedule, and a result of that the version control of the builds is easier to manage. This results in more nimble developement and an overarching simplicity. The aspect the end-user sees to all of this is better performance, faster developement of features, and less complexity.

Ok, now project this into the Media Center. By having a full-blown machine capable of performing the functions of dedicated components (that I already own) at far more the price, with far less the performance (due to the compexity of the software that is necesasary to support such an all-in-one device), I find it difficult to justify.

Apples approach, and I agree they need to start one, would be to have a set-top controller that allows these standard components (DVD paler, Receiver, CD player, VCR, TiVo, etc.) to do what they do best, and simply act as a command center that is slimmer (physically as well as functionally) that allows distribution. Also, if one of the devices goes down, don't sacrifice my whole A/V system while it is getting repaired.

Two aspects to [both Outlook and] the Media Center that stick in my craw is the danger of having one's "Eggs in one basket", and the "Jack of all trades: Good at everything, master of nothing".
I guess the idea of modular software is lost on you. Of course, that is why I stated that neither M$ or Apple would be the one to get it right. Someone else will.

And thank you for describing to a mechanical engineer what a hub is! ;)

Your approach is to just replace the receiver with something slightly more complex? What a waste. That is not "innovation" (what a overused word...), just a lame replacement. It is just another component to add to the stack. The point is to get rid of the stack. I don't need another component. I want a replacement for all that stuff.

I was under the impression that the difference in Apple's software design philosophy (wrt mail / calendar / contacts) was merely external point of view. Just because they are seperate links to start, they are all using the same libraries and db. Sounds like Outlook to me...
 
Originally posted by iPC
I guess the idea of modular software is lost on you. Of course, that is why I stated that neither M$ or Apple would be the one to get it right. Someone else will.

And thank you for describing to a mechanical engineer what a hub is! ;)

Your approach is to just replace the receiver with something slightly more complex? What a waste. That is not "innovation" (what a overused word...), just a lame replacement. It is just another component to add to the stack. The point is to get rid of the stack. I don't need another component. I want a replacement for all that stuff.

I was under the impression that the difference in Apple's software design philosophy (wrt mail / calendar / contacts) was merely external point of view. Just because they are seperate links to start, they are all using the same libraries and db. Sounds like Outlook to me...

-iPC

You missed my point, oh well.

As for "Just because they are seperate links to start, they are all using the same libraries and db.", yes, it would if they did share the same db, but they don't. They are wholly and completely separate applications, and call the others when a piece of information is needed.

As for adding components? Well this is the realm of personal preferences and I won't dare presume your values are the same as mine. Personally, I like the modular environs for the afore-mentioned reasons. All I would want from such a device would be voice/computer/web control of the components or something, but then, I'm not really in the market for anything like this anyway.

Additionally please take care of who you talk down to, and if you don't feel that you did, I took the comment "I guess the idea of modular software is lost on you.", that way. You have no idea what I am capable of, please don't presume that comments like that apply to me or others.
 
Originally posted by patrick0brien
Additionally please take care of who you talk down to, and if you don't feel that you did, I took the comment "I guess the idea of modular software is lost on you.", that way. You have no idea what I am capable of, please don't presume that comments like that apply to me or others.
My presumption was in response to yours (hub comment). What is the phrase dealing with the kitchen and heat... or was it the pot and the kettle?

;)

As to the db issue, why the heck would you have a address book, complete with all necessary contact info, and then replicate that for a (subpar) email client? That seems foolish to me. Good way to keep more programmers on the payroll I suppose...
 
Originally posted by iPC
MAs to the db issue, why the heck would you have a address book, complete with all necessary contact info, and then replicate that for a (subpar) email client? That seems foolish to me. Good way to keep more programmers on the payroll I suppose...

-iPC

Actually the email client, Mail.app has no internal contact list. Instead it consults Address Book for it. Therefore, you can, of course get your recipient's emails, but also addresses you save go there as well.

The integration is so transparent it appears that the contacts are stored in Mail.app itself, and I for one, love this aspect. I also like the fact that it looks up the email recipients as you type, narrowing the choices further as one adds keystrokes, instead of waiting for a search button to be pressed.

As for the hub comment, no presumption intended, I used that as an analogous extension to your digital hub vs. media center question. It's felt logical to use that context. :)
 
Originally posted by patrick0brien
-iPC

Actually the email client, Mail.app has no internal contact list. Instead it consults Address Book for it. Therefore, you can, of course get your recipient's emails, but also addresses you save go there as well.

The integration is so transparent it appears that the contacts are stored in Mail.app itself, and I for one, love this aspect. I also like the fact that it looks up the email recipients as you type, narrowing the choices further as one adds keystrokes, instead of waiting for a search button to be pressed.

As for the hub comment, no presumption intended, I used that as an analogous extension to your digital hub vs. media center question. It's felt logical to use that context. :)
No worries. :)

The integration of Mail.app with Address Book is no different than Outlook, IMO. It's just that Outlook goes for that annoying AOL style interface, instead of separate windows that feel like separate programs. The search aspect of typing in the address is nice (pine even uses it!), I never did understand the whole process of

click the To: button
type in the first few letters of name
once highlited name is what you want, hit enter twice
then returns you to the email, but the cursor is on the To: button and not after the contact just entered...? Idiots.

Makes me wonder what MS uses for their internal mail application.... ;)
 
From CNET review: Media Centers of attention:

Rating - system
8.3 - HP Pavilion zd7000
8.1 - ZT Home Theatre PC A5071
7.8 - HP Media Center PC m300y
7.8 - Toshiba Satellite P25 series
7.6 - Dell Dimension 4600C with Media Center
6.6 - ViewSonic NextVision M2100 Digital Media Center
not rated - Gateway 610 Media Center
not rated - Toshiba Satellite P15-S479

Overall, they say "Windows Media Center 2004 is a big step in the right direction, but there is still room for improvement."
 
big step in the right direction, but room to improve... that can be said about any major software upgrade (OS X versus OS 9 for example)....

*sigh*

i wish i could think outside of the box and develop the end-all-be-all device. :(
 
Pro Vs Home User (Oh, and screw TiVo

For Pro users, the computer is simply a data processor... be the user an accountant or a video editor, he has a task to perform, and wants the best hardware to get it done. He probably has a descrete fax machine, a disrete phone system, etc., so as to get the most/best use out of the differing systems.

For the home user, a computer is a communications/entertainment device, and only occassionaly a data processor.

In fact it's pretty much all about communications/entertainment. Yes, there is the once monthly quiken ritual and a little pic loading (data processing), but it's more likely to be about web browsing, emailing, game playing, chatting, mp3s, et al.

Adding video to the mix is not a stretch or beyond the point. While I wouldn't watch video on a 15 CRT, I would watch a 19 LCD or out put to a 36 TV.

In fact.. I do! ATI AIW 8500dv, rf remote control and hdtv out! Wonder-ful (pun intended). Cable in, aduio/video out to every srceen and stereo in my place, and one RF remote to control it all... real time tv, tv on demand, time shifting, Guide+, dvd playing, mp3 playing... it's all there...

When people see it, it's like wow! didn't know you could do that! How do I do that?

But it's not on my iMac... can't be... the hardware and software are is not there to do it in mpeg2 quality. Beleive me i looked... yes formac has a box, if you wanna shell out all kinds of money for it... yes theres eyetv, at mpeg1 (yuk)...

The best cards for this are agp or pci... not available for the iMac. Some stuff is available for PCI Macs... but the entry point for that is to high for this home user.

I put My AMD/AIW system together w/ all the connecting hardware, bigger HD, extra ram, etc, for about a grand, including a 19" crt (AMD 2k $500, AIW $170, 512 RAM $60, 120GB $100, Refrb 19" $140, cables about $50), less of course the TV's and Stereo I already had.

Building your own is not for everyone, but now you don't have to. And once people see it, they want it!

Screw Tivo and another monthly fee... cable pvr's have restrictions and cost not mentioned b4... and especially screw the folks who think that just because Jobs doesn't endorse it, it shouldn't be done. It's being done now, and you're gonna see alot more of it, because it makes sense.

Convergance is here... adapt or go broke!

Hey Steve.. you listening?
 
A few thoughts

A long time ago, I used my computer for an answering machine. I don't anymore, guess why?

A long time ago, I used to use my computer to listen to CDs. I don't anymore, guess why?

I used to use my computer to watch DVDs. I don't anymore, guess why?

Answer:
I bought a stand alone device that could do the function MUCH BETTER without tying up my computer. Same goes for the Tivo entertainment functions.

Why use a $2000-$3000 machine to answer calls when you could buy a $15 answering machine? Same goes for the Media PC's!
 
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