Merom apparently works without a hitch in current Intel Mac's

[840quadra]

I believe the OP was talking about no being able to fully leverage a large address space since you only have the ability to install 2 GiB of RAM in a mini, not that it couldn't support 64b addressing (assuming it had the needed software and hardware support, which current mini do not have -- possibly with a CPU upgrade but...).

Thank you, that was exactly what I was thinking actually.

The one point I did not consider was the fact that memory can (and will) advance in the future. As long as the system is not intentionally crippled (see Apples past hardware (think LC, Powermac 6500 series.. etc..) the system should be able to accept any memory that meets the slot standards, and logic board requirements.

 

[slu]

This would be even better if you weren't stuck with the GMA950 integrated graphics.

The only reason I even started to read this thread was to see how long it took someone to make an off topic post whining about the integrated graphics.

Apparently, the answer is 14.

 

[MrCrowbar]

Each pin is soldered onto the motherboard. I guess if you really had the nerve, you could unsolder each and every one of the 479 pins and install a new processor and solder each individual pin back into place. Even if this is in the realm of possibility, the margin for error is very high.

I've done this once, but it was replacing a 386 with a 486 if I remember right. Actually removing the old processor is the hardest part because alle pins have to be hot so you can pull it out of the board. Soldering the new one was a long operation, but with a precise soldering iron, it was possible.
The trick is pushing the new prosessor down enough so the pins stick out a bit on the back side of the board. Then press a square of thin paper on so that the pins all go throught the paper too. You can then solder pin row by pinrow easily and fast, with some training, you can do a line in 3 secondes. When you're done, remove the paper by lifting it with a needle or knife. You then have clean connections on every pin if you did it right.

But today's processors have some more pins than these relics so... well... good luck ^^

 

[840quadra]

I know wintel folks have done this for years, swap out older CPU for newer, but what about the rest of the board?

This is not that crazy of news for the Mac world either. For people that are new to Apple computers starting in the iBook, and G5 era, yes this is a great change. Us old G3 / G4 Powermac folk, a few Powerbook, some 68k machines, and other system users have been swapping processors for years now .

Aren't there improvements, however small, that make everything run faster? Like if they put a real GPU on the next board, plus merom (or faster CPU) that to me would be a better buy as everything would speed up, not just CPU tasks.

That question depends on the architecture, the target market of the system being put together, and the cost they would like to sell it at. Sometimes a speed bump for one manufacturer is just a faster processor on the same board. Apple, Dell, and many other computer makers do this quite often, without mass changes to the rest of the system. If the cost of the components is low enough (for them) they will sometimes add other performance bumps to sweeten the deal for would be buyers to consider.

If the system gets other changes (bumps) besides just the processor change... yes it is a better buy, and worth it, especially if the cost stays the same or goes down.



840quadra
Powermac G3 (with a 500Mhz G4 Processor) user.

 

[DeathChill]

Well I guess it is because some mac-dedicated website did not want to spend time following IDF announcements during the last 12 months...
I has known and announced by Intel. On the MacIntel, all the hardware is 100% compatible with WinXP, as it was proven recentmy by Apple with Boot Camp.
So when Intel says that the Merom will be compatible with the Yonah for PC it means the same at teh hardware level for the MacIntel!
please go to anandtech.com and make a search with IDF
or read this article: http://www.hardmac.com/news/2005-08-25/#4390
Meriom will bring alrger cache and support for 64bits intructions sets. On some Pc websites, rumors have been floating that support for 64bit might already be available on the Yonah but inactivated by Intel for unknown purpose.
it is not because macrumors did not talk about it, that it was not known.

We already knew that Merom was pin compatible but it was unknown whether the firmware would have any play in it. It's now shown that it doesn't matter at all and upgrading is as easy as pie.

 

[dr_lha]

Each pin is soldered onto the motherboard. I guess if you really had the nerve, you could unsolder each and every one of the 479 pins and install a new processor and solder each individual pin back into place. Even if this is in the realm of possibility, the margin for error is very high.

Are the laptop versions of the chips surface mount, or just the same chip soldered into the board?

 

[ruckus]

ummmm

I could be wrong here...

But i don't see how you can drop a 64 bit chip into a 32 bit computer. It isn't the chip itself that makes the computer 64 bit, the motherboad and system bus are all designed for 64 bit architecture...

EDIT:
after a bit of thought i guess this is possible, its just not a true 64 bit machine. You don't gain much but a larger number of operations, you still have 32 bit addressable memory and 32bit wide memory buss so you have to do double loads from memory.

So modest gains are possible, pretty sure the cost/gain ration won't be very good for a long time.

 

[supafly1703]

Oh pleaaaase....

Make it replaceable in a MBP Steve!

 

[p0intblank]

This is insanely great news... can't wait for Merom!

 

[rxse7en]

Macbook Pro would be so much sweeter with the capability of swapping procs. Even if they used a daughtercard scheme I would be MUCH happier buying a new 17" when they are out. My 'books last for years, I continue to buy new ones, but just once I would LOVE to be able to swap out procs--and graphics cards for that matter.

 

[AidenShaw]

The socket doesn't determine the bit-ness

I could be wrong here...

But i don't see how you can drop a 64 bit chip into a 32 bit computer. It isn't the chip itself that makes the computer 64 bit, the motherboad and system bus are all designed for 64 bit architecture...

EDIT:
after a bit of thought i guess this is possible, its just not a true 64 bit machine. You don't gain much but a larger number of operations, you still have 32 bit addressable memory and 32bit wide memory buss so you have to do double loads from memory.

So modest gains are possible, pretty sure the cost/gain ration won't be very good for a long time.

All current Intel chips (and the last couple, also the G4) use a 64-bit wide data bus to memory, or even a pair of them (dual-channel) for 128-bit access.

You also don't need 64-bit memory addressing - most 64-bit chips are limited to 36-bit physical addressing (64 GiB) or less. In any event, even if the chipset only supports 32-bit addressing, you can still have 64-bit virtual addressing at the program level with up to 4 GiB of physical RAM.

The Napa chipset used with Yonah only supports 32-bit physical, so you are right in the sense that 64-bit Merom in a mini won't get around that barrier. (and if anybody needed more than 4 GiB, they probably wouldn't have the mini in the first place!)

You'll still get the extra speed of 64-bit, so that's goodness.

 

[milo]

Does this mean i can buy an iMac now and still be able to upgrade it's chip to a merom chip? and does that mean i can go past the 2GB RAM limit as well.

Yes. And the 2gig ram limit is mostly because there are only two slots. A 32 bit chip will let you use up to 4 gigs of ram.

I for one feel that Apple deserves all the crap they get about the integrated graphics

Except that the facts don't bear out the "crap". The minis run pretty damn good for just about everything but high end games.

what are you going to do, browse the internet 20% faster?

Wow, you sure have blinders on. There are tons of apps that eat CPU for lunch and barely touch the video card. My weapon of choice is Logic, it runs GREAT on the mini, and will only run better with these upgrades. And who knows if the boost will be. 2.3 from 1.6 is a 40% increase in clock speed, and the gain will likely be more than the difference in clock speed. The difference from a 1.5 solo will be vastly more.

Great point. I would buy a mini but for the poor graphics. I dont want the latest nvidia or ati offering just something that will let me play some 3d games *not* anything that requires a top of the line card.

Think of it, parents with kids (especially switchers) who've just bought a mini are going to be pretty annoyed when their kids are giving out to them about their new computer that cant play a few 3d games.

You guys need to get out more. The mini can play 3d games, just not the really high end ones at the highest resolutions. Kids and other casual gamers will be just fine gaming on a mini. Not to mention that it plays back HDTV, not bad for "poor" graphics.

 

[Senbei]

--old news--

I actually knew this already a week ago, but didn't think of it as being significant.

Same here. I posted this info in the Parallels virtualization thread a few days ago when someone asked if it would be possible to drop a Merom into a mini. Didn't think it was newsworthy since Intel had also demoed this before (though they did mention some systems may require a BIOS update; looks like Apple's system are ready for them).

And if Fugger can get a Merom, Apple should be able to do this too.

Apple probably had already had test chips available for months. It seems Intel only relatively recently has begun broader testing which is why folks like FUGGER have access to prototypes (but with certain restrictions which is why he hasn't posted any photos or detailed benchmarks).

The Napa chipset used with Yonah only supports 32-bit physical, so you are right in the sense that 64-bit Merom in a mini won't get around that barrier.

Don't remember the code name off the bat but was it the Santa Rosa chipset they are working on supposed to enable that capability?

 

[milo]

Photoshop, iPhoto, Office and these days even scientific work like F@H use your GPU.

Office and iPhoto? What do they do with the GPU? Neither one uses core video or core image, do they?

Wrong. Older graphics cards could not handle high resolutions and high refresh rates. Also, OS X's interface is driven by OpenGL (Quartz Extreme) so a better graphics card WILL help.

Not with an app like Office. There's no way in hell you could exceed the GPU's ability to redraw the screen. How exactly does one get a blazing fast framerate in Word?

 

[ionos]

Labrat with a twist

Well, I've got a fun one for you.

Yesterday I used my dual mini as a lab PC to figure out a email issue with Kerio Mail Server.

I have XP running on it, took the info store from the windows 2003 server it was having kittens on, and created a lab on my mini simulating the email environment to track down a problem.

The mini was actually faster connecting outlook from the users PC's than the kittenized server was. I emailed the support dude's from Kerio (mostly to make them go WTF?) on my bizarre way of troubleshooting a problem. They told me that they were officially working on a new intel version when the anticipated xserves come out, but my approach was 'entertaining'. Of course everything got fixed and the mini is now securely in its laptop bag.

I think I single handedly created a few swtichers just on that alone.

Now onto the point:
For me using the highly portable mini for Frankenstein work as I do, that aspect of ramping out the brain is sweet. And for graphics, lets just say that I was playing a highly engaging game of KOTOR2 on the mini all the while the email server was doing it's thing. Yeah, it wasn't cutting edge in gaming, but it's still a fun game regardless. Hell, I'll take 20% any day. That can translate into alot for people like me.

I hope people do not underestimate what this little baby can do.

 

[Rocketman]

hot sauce...that should be a pretty nice perk to those who own an already sexy mactel mini.

this swapability could be a foreshawdow of some great new flexibility in apple hardware.

It is mainly a way to sell two CPU's per MB.

Rocketman

 

[avensis087]

anyone have the balls to try this on the harder to reach chip in the iMac? can anybody tell me exactly how difficult it would be to reach the chip, since i haven't actually opened mine up yet.

mr

 

[DeathChill]

Another interesting fact is that FUGGER showed the difference between the top Core Duo chip (currently 2.16 GHz) and the second lowest Merom (2.0 GHz). The 2.16 Ghz Core Duo gets 38K in R@H and the second lowest 2.0 GHz Merom gets 42K. This is quite nice because the top Core Duo chip is quite expensive and the second lowest Merom chip beats it.

 

[smokeyboi]

Why anyone would wanna do this is beyond me! the current napa platform (which yonah was made for) won't be able to utilize the 64-bit merom's full potential anyway. the merom is built for the upcoming santa rosa platform which comes out early 2007.

 

[minipri]

And graphics?

Damn! ...no MacBook Pro's! (Yet??)
...and the graphics, they should also be upgradable! ...no?

Sigh :/

[ dim. ]

 

[AidenShaw]

...because it's faster ?

Why anyone would wanna do this is beyond me! the current napa platform (which yonah was made for) won't be able to utilize the 64-bit merom's full potential anyway. the merom is built for the upcoming santa rosa platform which comes out early 2007.

The current Yonah chipset (Napa) can support 4 GiB of RAM. That's quite a lot for most people.

Merom in 32-bit mode is roughly 20% faster than Yonah, that's nice.

Merom in 64-bit mode would be roughly 20% faster than Merom in 32-bit mode, or 44% faster than Yonah. That's very nice. (Of course, this depends on both a true 64-bit version of OSX and on 64-bit applications.)

Now, take a 1.5 GHz Core Solo Mini, drop in a 2.33 GHz Merom dual-core ("Core Duo T7600" it may be called) - and you've got something that may be up to 3.7 times faster in 32-bit mode with current applications.

Why would anyone want to do this?

 

[daveL]

Well, Sorta ...

Why anyone would wanna do this is beyond me! the current napa platform (which yonah was made for) won't be able to utilize the 64-bit merom's full potential anyway. the merom is built for the upcoming santa rosa platform which comes out early 2007.

The performance gains quoted throughout are Merom on Napa. You don't need Santa Rosa to benefit, otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Intel to release Merom 4 - 5 months ahead of Santa Rosa, would it?

 

[biohazard6969]

i didn't read through all of the post, this might have been asked already, but all this talk about swapping out and the mac mini....could this all be related back to the core duo imac as well?

 

[AidenShaw]

A 32 bit chip will let you use up to 4 gigs of ram.

A PowerPC G4 actually supports up to 64 GiB of RAM.

Most high end Intel CPUs since the Pentium II Xeon also support up to 64 GiB of RAM.

No Apple system used the capabilities of the G4 - they were stuck with 31-bit addressing. Many Intel workstation and server systems support the extended memory - 8/12/16/32 and even 64 GiB systems are easy to buy. (Well, *easy* except for the cost of 64 GiB of RAM )

In spite of Apple's "hype-vertising", there's no need to use a 64-bit CPU to support more than 4 GiB of physical RAM.

 

[mchendricks]

A PowerPC G4 actually supports up to 64 GiB of RAM.

Most high end Intel CPUs since the Pentium II Xeon also support up to 64 GiB of RAM.

No Apple system used the capabilities of the G4 - they were stuck with 31-bit addressing. Many Intel workstation and server systems support the extended memory - 8/12/16/32 and even 64 GiB systems are easy to buy. (Well, *easy* except for the cost of 64 GiB of RAM )

In spite of Apple's "hype-vertising", there's no need to use a 64-bit CPU to support more than 4 GiB of physical RAM.

Sorry to be a bit off topic, but I have a G4 MDD 867 that uses PC2100 RAM. Could I use 4 1 gig PC3200 (or PC 2700) chips to reach that 4 gig limit. Apple says it maxs on 4-512MB PC2100 chips.

Thanks