OS X Metal vs OpenGL benchmark

Discussion in 'Mac and PC Games' started by jeanlain, Feb 20, 2016.

  1. JordanNZ macrumors 6502a

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    #51
    Of course it does. The D3D11 backend in WoW has had years of optimisation. As have the drivers.

    It's going to take time for Metal to shine. But it's showing promise already.
     
  2. jeanlain thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #52
    Yeah, and the Metal drivers, even if they help in situations where the CPU is limiting, have the opposite effect when the GPU is limiting. The GPU code they produce is not mature yet and needs optimization.
     
  3. wubsylol macrumors regular

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    #53
    WoWs OpenGL renderer has also had years of optimisation and it's in a sorry state, just like the drivers.

    Obviously Metal needs time to mature, but until then we have a rotting/abandoned API and an infant API. Neither of which bode well for 3D performance on the Mac.
     
  4. koyoot macrumors 601

    koyoot

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    #54
    OpenGL in current form in Metal is "legacy" mode API. That is why it is there. New games i presume will be completely Metal based without OpenGL.
     
  5. jeanlain, Apr 2, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016

    jeanlain thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #55
    How did you compare GFXBench results? Did you run the test on Windows and OS X on the same Mac?
    The database shows results ranked by GPUs, but the offscreen results will mostly depend on CPU performance (where Metal makes a difference).
    According to the ranking, my radeon R9280 can be faster than a titan black and slower than a laptop GPU at the same time.
     
  6. JordanNZ macrumors 6502a

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    #56
    The OpenGL backend in alpha has been completely re-written to use core profile.
    It also needs optimisation.
     
  7. wubsylol, Apr 2, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016

    wubsylol macrumors regular

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    #57
    Yeah, I just ran them on the same Mac.
    The database seems pretty sparse on OS X results and I'm more interested in my own results anyway.

    I'm talking about live, not Alpha. Live performance also trails Windows, despite having years of optimisations.
     
  8. jeanlain thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #58
    Ok but you reply to a post that just stated that the Alpha version was 50-75% faster than the live version...
    And as you can see from this thread, the Metal version of GFXBench can be up to 2x-3x faster than openGL (not even counting the driver overhead test that runs 10x faster) IF if you have a good GPU or run the test at low res (when the GPU is limiting, it won't be faster). What's you config?
     
  9. wubsylol, Apr 3, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016

    wubsylol macrumors regular

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    #59
    Regarding GFXBench, no ones Metal results have been "2x-3x" faster than OpenGL across the board.

    Regarding World of Warcraft,
    1) I said Metal was lagging behind Direct3D
    2) JordanNZ dismissed this, saying Metal is new and needs optimisation
    3) I said the OpenGL also lags behind Direct3D and does not need optimisation
    4) JordanNZ misinterpreted this as being about the Alpha client and dismissed it
    5) I clarified that I am referring to the live client, which also lags behind Direct3D and has had years of optimisation

    Here's a wrap-up of everything I've posted regarding Metal which seems to be so controversial.
    - Apple let OpenGL rot for so long it was apparently easier/more productive for them in the long run to port Metal over from iOS than to fix OpenGL
    - Metal performs worse than Direct3D
    - Metal is improving, but it's not there yet.
    - OpenGL on the Mac performs worse than Direct3D
    - Despite being abandoned by Apple, OpenGL will remain in widespread use on the Mac until Metal provides features (including ease of porting Direct3D code) and performance OpenGL does not
    - GFXBench test results have only demonstrated that Metal performs ahead of OpenGL in specific situations. This is likely to change, however it has still not demonstrated a conclusive performance increase over OpenGL which can be attributed to Metal being superior and not OS X OpenGL being left to rot.
     
  10. JordanNZ macrumors 6502a

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    #60
    I didn't dispute that Metal is currently lagging behind direct3d. Metal IS new, and performance in alpha is already far better than it was at the start. It's already faster than OpenGL.

    The live client is running on OpenGL 2.1, and as WoWs features have progressed, this backend has struggled to keep up. Which is why Blizzard re-wrote the entire backend in core profile for the macs that don't support Metal.
     
  11. wubsylol macrumors regular

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    #61
    Rewriting the backend to use OGL 3.3 doesn't change the fact that Apple's OpenGL drivers are still buggy/outdated and this is unlikely to change because of the focus being on Metal.

    My point all along has been that Metal is not ready for primetime and OpenGL is not ready to retire, so in the interim we've two mediocre APIs.
     
  12. jeanlain thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #62
    Which is why I said "up to".
     
  13. wubsylol macrumors regular

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    #63
    Nobody is getting results "up to" 2x-3x faster across the board.
     
  14. JordanNZ macrumors 6502a

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    #64
    If you have a Nvidia card you can download their drivers.

    Considering metal is already faster than OpenGL (even with the web drivers), I'd hardly say it's mediocre.

    If your point is to show that metal isn't as fast as D3D (yet) then you're correct. But the only way it's going to be 'ready for prime time' is to get applications using it, and fixing bugs/optimisation/adding features.

    This is already happening.
     
  15. jeanlain, Apr 3, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016

    jeanlain thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #65
    Sigh. Where did I say "across the board"?

    I said
    It's pretty obvious that I was referring to individual tests.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 3, 2016 ---
    Yes, and Unreal Engine 4.11 was just released with Metal as the default render in OS X 10.11. Even if Metal lacks features present in openGL 4.11, it comes with compute shaders, which more are more important.
     
  16. wubsylol macrumors regular

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    #66
     
  17. JordanNZ macrumors 6502a

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    #67
    What's the argument here? That Metal currently performs worse than D3D?

    All that matters is that it's better than OpenGL going forward, we don't have D3D on OSX and never will, so bringing that into the equation to defend OpenGL (which is slower than D3D on the other platforms using it also) is a strange argument. And so far in terms of speed, the applications using it have shown that it is.

    The very nature of Metal being a streamlined API with efficient multi-threading support, and pre-complied shaders already gives it a technical advantage in terms of speed.
     
  18. antonis macrumors 68000

    antonis

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    #68
    I don't think "Metal is already faster than OpenGL" tells the whole story, guys. Maybe it would be more accurate to say "Metal is already faster than Apple's OpenGL". In other words, how does the same test perform under OpenGL in OSX and OpenGL in windows ?

    It might still be faster or not, but OpenGL in windows might perform better than it's older cousin on OS X side, because of better drivers and/or higher OpenGL version. Ideally, the latest manufacturer's drivers should be used on Windows (e.g. nVidia or AMD) and not Apple's.
     
  19. JordanNZ macrumors 6502a

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    #69
    Or Nvidias OpenGL.. Metal is beating the web drivers in WoW.
    None of this matters anyway, because there's no games that matter using OpenGL on Windows.
     
  20. antonis macrumors 68000

    antonis

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    #70
    That's true. Just wanted to point out that there's no real benefit from comparing Metal against a dead horse that Apple deliberately left it to die on OS X.
     
  21. JordanNZ macrumors 6502a

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    #71
    Fair point!
     
  22. iPhonePunker macrumors newbie

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    #72
    Mac Pro 4.1 (5.1 patch)
    x2 Intel Xeon E5520 2.27GhZ 8 Core's 16 Threads.
    40GB DDR3 1066Mhz RAM
    EVGA GTX 980 SC
    Nvidia GT 120 Screen Shot 2016-04-28 at 23.15.56.png Screen Shot 2016-04-28 at 23.17.48.png
    Screen Shot 2016-04-28 at 23.13.57.png
     
  23. jeanlain thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #73
    So how does Metal compare to openGL, which his the main point of this thread?
     
  24. iamtheonlyone4ever macrumors regular

    iamtheonlyone4ever

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    #74
  25. jeanlain thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #75
    It's better not to use the onscreen tests anyway. OpenGL is capped at 60 fps on these.
     

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