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MI5 Argues for 'Exceptional Access' to Encrypted Messages

Kabeyun said:
We all know (or think we know) that noted Franklin quote about liberty and safety. And I agree. The problem is that evil doers can abuse that liberty, hide behind it. These days, the evil one can inflict (terrorism, mass shootings, cyber warfare) and the ability one has to hide (encryption, dark web) are unprecedented. If we are to stand for electronic liberty, we must be consistent about it. If a nut job shoots up a night club, we cannot then change our minds about “liberty” and whine about not knowing what’s on his iPhone or who he messaged on Facebook. We can’t have it both ways. If you want to test how you really feel about it, imagine your family member being murdered by a nut job with an AR-15, suspected contacts with a terrorist organization, and an encrypted iPhone. Really imagine it. Now what do you want? It’s not so simple, and be skeptical of those who offer simple condensations of complex issues (typically found posting anonymously in internet forums).
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I agree with you about what I would want under those circumstances - at at time when I would be extremely emotional and not care about anyone or anything other than catching the person who killed my family. But that doesn't make it good public policy. If a drunk driver killed my family I would probably want to bring back prohibition. If an illegal immigrant killed my family I would probably want everyone in this country illegally rounded up and deported. Emotional people are not known for making good public policy decisions.
 
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"Andrew Parker says he has found it "increasingly mystifying""

Yeah, he certainly looks the type to be mystified by math.
 
kurosov said:
They always turn to terrorism as an excuse to erode privacy rights and it’s a terrible argument.

We already know there were tech savvy members of isis. They have the capability of creating their own encrypted messaging system.

These systems remove privacy from the average citizen, reduce security by adding a potential point of failure while having virtually no effect on the people they claim the backdoors were meant To be used against.
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But 'terrorism', as an excuse, plays well to their frightened base. I've talked with family, clients, and others, about encryption, and whether we should have a right to privacy from government surveillance. I was amazed at how many tossed out the trite 'But if you aren't doing anything wrong, why should you hide it'. That totally avoids the whole topic: Should government be able to see our entire lives. Should we have no privacy at all? If the government can see 'everything', what stops a crazy neighbor from 'seeing everything'.

Some frightened people will give away everything to not feel frightened. They were lined up after 9/11/2001, ready to embrace a hungry government's desire to strip our privacy away. That we have what we have left is actually amazing to me.
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DoctorTech said:
Emotional people are not known for making good public policy decisions.
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I'd add ignorant people to that also.
 
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jclardy said:
If any single one of those people leaves their job, they become a target for anyone looking to exploit the backdoor. So I'd give it 3-6 months until it gets exploited by third parties.
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They don't even need to leave their job - an exploitable vulnerability such as infidelity, addiction, etc. can be enough to "turn" them. Or even just simple greed.
 
jclardy said:
The problem with adding a backdoor is people. There will be multiple people at apple that know the backdoor exists, and even more that worked on its implementation. Then there are people in the government that know it exists, and use the backdoor.

If any single one of those people leaves their job, they become a target for anyone looking to exploit the backdoor. So I'd give it 3-6 months until it gets exploited by third parties.
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And aside from this is the hacker community who find backdoors and other flaws that expose data and conversations. There are so many flaws that have been discovered that are more damaging than a backdoor. Having the spy agencies using flaws and backdoors and not reporting their existence is horrific enough...
 
Kabeyun said:
We all know (or think we know) that noted Franklin quote about liberty and safety. And I agree. The problem is that evil doers can abuse that liberty, hide behind it. These days, the evil one can inflict (terrorism, mass shootings, cyber warfare) and the ability one has to hide (encryption, dark web) are unprecedented. If we are to stand for electronic liberty, we must be consistent about it. If a nut job shoots up a night club, we cannot then change our minds about “liberty” and whine about not knowing what’s on his iPhone or who he messaged on Facebook. We can’t have it both ways. If you want to test how you really feel about it, imagine your family member being murdered by a nut job with an AR-15, suspected contacts with a terrorist organization, and an encrypted iPhone. Really imagine it. Now what do you want? It’s not so simple, and be skeptical of those who offer simple condensations of complex issues (typically found posting anonymously in internet forums).
Click to expand...

Except that isn't what Franklin meant with that quote at all. When you actually take the time to research him, you will find that over time, that quote lost all meaning:

www.npr.org

Ben Franklin's Famous 'Liberty, Safety' Quote Lost Its Context In 21st Century

He once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." That quote often comes up in the context of new technology.
www.npr.org www.npr.org

What Ben Franklin Really Said

If you like this post, please like our Facebook page and follow Lawfare on Twitter: Follow @lawfareblog
www.lawfareblog.com www.lawfareblog.com

techcrunch.com

How The World Butchered Benjamin Franklin's Quote On Liberty Vs. Security | TechCrunch

One of America's favorite liberal phrases has been sent through the political spin machine and polished into a Frankenstein of sorts, thus rendering it
techcrunch.com techcrunch.com
 
So 99.9% of everyone should have their privacy taken away for the tiny percent of terrorist out there? Not sure I agree
 
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How about governments focus on taking care of their people and the faults in their cultures (and work with other governments) so we don't have terrorists even forming? 🤔
 
Winni said:
Yes. It's essential that a government and their intelligence agencies can spy on their own people...

Without privacy, there can be no freedom.
And in our digital world, without encryption, there can be no privacy.

"If you have nothing to hide, then you are nothing."
-- Prof. Dr. Shoshana Zuboff
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Try telling that to the parents of the 22, mostly children, who were blown to bits at a pop concert where I work (Manchester, UK). The guy who did it used apps that helped screen his privacy in order to find out how to build a bomb and communicate with people in his terrorist network.

victims.jpg


I am happy for MI5 to access my details online and my electronic devices. Once they know I am essentially boring and pose no threat they won't waste their time examining what I do - but it might stop atrocities like the Arena bombing from happening.
 
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If they get "exceptional access", then every other really bad actor that you definitely don't want to have that access will also have it. There is no in between here and you can't have it both ways. Astonishing how much this backdoor garbage has been thoroughly and unequivocally debunked by scholars like Bruce Schneier and yet here we are listening to more if it from the chief intelligence guy for a world power.
 
Compromised end-to-end encryption is NOT end-to-end encryption.
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Raid said:
To this point, if privacy is eliminated do we have liberty?
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no you dont. and they dont want you to have that. and they are telling it in disguise of terror attacks and the horrors of the world.
 
markcres said:
Try telling that to the parents of the 22, mostly children, who were blown to bits at a pop concert where I work (Manchester, UK). The guy who did it used apps that helped screen his privacy in order to find out how to build a bomb and communicate with people in his terrorist network.

View attachment 896565

I am happy for MI5 to access my details online and my electronic devices. Once they know I am essentially boring and pose no threat they won't waste their time examining what I do - but it might stop atrocities like the Arena bombing from happening.
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Then England can pass laws that let MI5 spy on English people, leave the rest of the UK and world out of it. If there are no main stream encrypted chats online, I can have a far more secretive one up and running in minutes on a private server.
 
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I really don't see the issue if you have nothing to hide.

Heaven forbid there was another terrorist attack, then people will complain our intelligence agencies didn't do enough. They can't win - let them have access, they're protecting you. They couldn't care less about all the things you believe constitute to privacy...
 
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Totally agree with not giving the government a back door, for any reason. It will compromise security for all users, no escaping that. If there is a possibility to get in, someone else will also do so.

If the government get to demand whatever they want, when will we be required to install video cameras and microphones in every room at home?
 
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PS65 said:
I really don't see the issue if you have nothing to hide.

Heaven forbid there was another terrorist attack, then people will complain our intelligence agencies didn't do enough. They can't win - let them have access, they're protecting you. They couldn't care less about all the things you believe constitute to privacy...
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You're missing the point so hard right now.

If you give access to MI5/NSA, etc, you're adding a weakness that can be exploited by bad actors, or certain governments that can not be trusted.

These agencies are peed that they've had it so good for so long. Unlimited access to phone records, internet browsing histories. You name it, they got it. Times are changing - for the better.
 
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deeddawg said:
Great, 22 folks end up being saved..
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deeddawg said:
Maybe not here. Today.

But say you're a dissident activist in Iran, or China, or some other totalitarian regime.

Might you then have something to hide?
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Have a bit of respect for those 22, don't just flippantly write that.

Unfortunately, you live in a world where terrorism is a risk every day and their priority is to protect you every day. If you don't like it, then move to a country that will honour your liberty but pretty sure it won't come anywhere near the quality of life countries who try to protect their citizens within a regulatory framework provide.
 
Where does it end?

And no government official can answer, doesn't matter which side of the pond they're on.
 
Brian Y said:
You're missing the point so hard right now.

If you give access to MI5/NSA, etc, you're adding a weakness that can be exploited by bad actors, or certain governments that can not be trusted.

These agencies are peed that they've had it so good for so long. Unlimited access to phone records, internet browsing histories. You name it, they got it. Times are changing - for the better.
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I don't disagree with that...but I am referring to Mi5, not every agency. And the bad actors can/will crack this anyway....you think Russia and China are going to ask permission...
 
PS65 said:
Unfortunately, you live in a world where terrorism is a risk every day and their priority is to protect you every day. If you don't like it, then move to a country that will honour your liberty but pretty sure it won't come anywhere near the quality of life countries who try to protect their citizens within a regulatory framework provide.
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you really do sound naive.
 
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deeddawg said:
Maybe not here. Today.

But say you're a dissident activist in Iran, or China, or some other totalitarian regime.

Might you then have something to hide?
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Or maybe you have to join a group protesting the activity of a president who has indicated they may not comply with the peaceful transition of power at the end of their term.

Never mind, I’m sure nobody like that would ever want to look at your communications.
 
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