Microchannel Cooled CPUs?

[FlamDrag]

I'm not an expert on the subject, but my understanding is that liquid cooling still needs airflow to cool the liquid.

This I know: Heat doesn't just magically disappear.

So, logically, the liquid has to go SOMEWHERE away from the heat to cool and come back. This by no means eliminates the need for fans. You probably need even more powerful fans to push more cool air past the water pipes to cool the water before it makes its way back to the processor.

Either way, it won't be a terribly quiet machine. Imagine a small fishtank inside of your machine, pumping water. It might be somehwat similar. Flowing water can get pretty noisy.

 

[srobert]

Interesting!

This french guy had an old PC working for a whole week entirely submerged in 25 liters of oil (i.e.: non conductive).

It's a different approach than pipes, but interesting nonetheless

Submerged PC

 

[aarond12]

Microchannel

Arrrgh. Someone beat me to post a smart-a$$ remark about the old-style Microchannel interface slots.

I fondly remember that Tandy 5000HD system. It was SOOO fast for its time.

For the time being, I will stick with PCI slots, thank you.

-Aaron-

 

[sososowhat]

Misconceptions

A lot of people seem to be reading this as "water cooled computer". It's not.

It's basically a way to get the heat INSIDE the chip evenly distributed away from hot-spots, and then out to the edge of the chip where it can disipate in the normal way. I've no idea how much water this would take, but I'd guess it's not gallons - maybe not even ounces.

It has nothing to do with fans - except in as much as it allows chips to generate MORE total heat for the fans to get rid of because it's better distributed within the chip.

What will reduce power consumption eventually is lowering the voltage at which these things run. There are still technical barriers to doing this.

 

[lynnpye]

Originally posted by Jerry Spoon
Don't worry about that lame joke. Consider it water under the bridge.

Oh, come on. If you thought that was funny at all, you're all wet.

 

[cubist]

Any of you guys listen real close to the BLOWERS (not fans!) which cool the Xserve? The machine sounds like a jet engine. Working near one is enough to drive one to drink. Maybe the computer wants to tip back a cold one too?

 

[Head Wound]

Some facts on water cooling.

Originally posted by FlamDrag
I'm not an expert on the subject, but my understanding is that liquid cooling still needs airflow to cool the liquid.

This I know: Heat doesn't just magically disappear.

So, logically, the liquid has to go SOMEWHERE away from the heat to cool and come back. This by no means eliminates the need for fans. You probably need even more powerful fans to push more cool air past the water pipes to cool the water before it makes its way back to the processor.

Either way, it won't be a terribly quiet machine. Imagine a small fishtank inside of your machine, pumping water. It might be somehwat similar. Flowing water can get pretty noisy.

Unfortunatly, you got it backwards. The idea behind water cooling is to move the heat from the CPU, which has a very small surface area, to a heat exchanger, which has, compared to the CPU, a gigantic surface area. This alows you to use FAR quieter and less powerful fans to get the same cooling power, and have a system that is nearly silent. If the heat exchanger is large enough, you could theoretically even eliminate fans completely, though most people don't go that far. Too costly and to much space required.

This microchannel technology is even better then current tech, though, because it pulls heat from the CPU to the water FAR more efficently. Perfect for a powerbook!

Speaking of water cooling in powerbooks, there is a VERY good reason to do it that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. The form factor of a powerbook means that there would not be a whole lot of additional cooling power gained from water cooling, but don't over look the huge improvment in design flexability! With water cooling, you can place the CPU nearly anywhere in the case and just move the heat to the fans at the edge. Water cooling could be the key to smaller, thinner, and even lighter powerbooks.

 

[AidenShaw]

My three year old laptop has water^H^H^H^H^H liquid cooling.

Originally posted by Head Wound
With water cooling, you can place the CPU nearly anywhere in the case and just move the heat to the fans at the edge.

My three year old Compaq Armada M700 uses boiling water^H^H^H^H^H liquid in heat pipes to cool the 700 MHz Mobile Pentium III. Pictures of the underside of the PowerMac G5 motherboard also show heat pipes cooling some of the controller chips.

Design flexibility is the key - M700 has the fan and heat exchanger *beside* the CPU, not on top.

Sounds like the new "microchannel" is an improvement, but not a radically new technology.

(edit: IIRC Compaq definitely was saying that the heat pipes on the Proliant servers used low pressure water)

 

[acj]

Re: My three year old laptop has water cooling.

Originally posted by AidenShaw
My three year old Compaq Armada M700 uses boiling water in heat pipes to cool the 700 MHz Mobile Pentium III. Pictures of the underside of the PowerMac G5 motherboard also show heat pipes cooling some of the controller chips.

Design flexibility is the key - M700 has the fan and heat exchanger *beside* the CPU, not on top.

Sounds like the new "microchannel" is an improvement, but not a radically new technology.

Usually they don't use water.

 

[iPC]

Re: Re: My three year old laptop has water cooling.

Originally posted by acj
Usually they don't use water.

Replace water with any non corrosive, low density, non flammable, non electronicly charged liquid

 

[MrMacMan]

Ah finally really really quiet technology!



Bring on those G6 WaterCooled xServer's w00t!

 

[yamabushi]

Heat pipes are great for getting the heat away from where it can do the most harm. You can gain additional cooling performance by combining them with fans and/or increasing the surface area of the pipes in areas that are relatively cooler than the heat producing areas. Actually, while a pump for the fluid can increase performance, it isn't required.

I would love to see a Powerbook with heat pipes along the inside and outside of the case. I think it would look very cool - pinstripe aluminum. No power would be required for the heat pipes. The Nexus heat pipe laptop cooler helped inspire this idea.
http://www.xpcgear.com/notebookcooler.html

I hope Apple is considering a design similar to this. If Nexus can do it this cheap, cost should not be prohibitive.

 

[AidenShaw]

My three year old laptop has 90% water cooling.

Originally posted by acj
Usually they don't use water.

http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/20030131/shuttle-07.html

"A heat pipe uses a hollow receptacle (metal pipe) to transport heat directly from one point to another.

The metal pipe is filled with fluid, 90 percent of which is distilled water; the remainder consists of special ingredients added to optimize the liquid's thermal transfer properties.

Here's how it works: the liquid is subjected to a very low pressure, reducing the evaporation point to approximately 30 degrees Celsius. When cold, the pipe contains very little water. However, when the heat pipe contacts the CPU directly on one end, the water evaporates and transports the thermal energy to the cold end of the pipe."

 

[ibidanon]

Cooligy comes from Stanford ME research...

I was interested in tracking down the research since that would be public information, whereas no doubt Cooligy as a company is now keeping very sercretive.

I am a Stanford EE grad student and was interested to discover that this work comes out of some Stanford reasearch. Check out the following link:

http://me.stanford.edu/globals/goodson2.html

 

[yamabushi]

I have heard of some systems that use methanol or alcohol.

I used a machine coolant for CNC Milling several years ago that is pretty neat. You added this oil to a bunch of water (about1:9 if memory serves) and mixed it together. You wound up with this milky green liquid that got sprayed directly on the cutting tool. No, it didn't ever seperate like salad dressing. It was a water soluable oil. I never realized there was such a thing before that. Perhaps this is what they use in some heat pipes, or maybe not.

 

[iHack]

Re: MicroChannel isn't new technology

Originally posted by AidenShaw

Does it say MS OS/2 in the text? I thought OS/2 was IBM's brainchild?

Very cool, tho, at a mere $8999,-!

BTW does CA. have a governator yet?

M.

 

[Sheebahawk]

a little off topic

no governator for half a dozen more hours, I'm so torn, I hate everyone on the ballot, and arnold, well have you seen any of his speeches? hes utterly insane. It kida bugs me that this is hot topic news to people who live in the netherlands. I guess california isn't that interesting once I've been numbed to it.

and gray davis is such a pansy, I think I'll vote no on the recall though... still undecided, No on recall, yes on uhm legalization. the only candidate I thought I would vote for dropped out. this whole things pretty damn ludacris, at least it will be over soon

www.recallbush.org

 

[mvc]

BOOOM

Originally posted by yamabushi
I have heard of some systems that use methanol or alcohol.

Hey Great, Apple can just combine this with those rumoured methanol fuel-cell powered laptops they have been working on, just pump the methanol fuel over the red hot processor and …

 

[yamabushi]

Re: Re: MicroChannel isn't new technology

Originally posted by iHack
Does it say MS OS/2 in the text? I thought OS/2 was IBM's brainchild?

Very cool, tho, at a mere $8999,-!

BTW does CA. have a governator yet?

M.

IBM and MS worked together for a while on a next generation OS project, then split over differences in opinion as to the best design. IBM wanted a clean break while MS wanted more continuity with legacy OS design. The result was OS/2 and Windows NT. Issues about ownership and marketing probably caused some confusion at the time.

 

[robodweeb]

Originally posted by FlamDrag
I'm not an expert on the subject, but my understanding is that liquid cooling still needs airflow to cool the liquid.

This I know: Heat doesn't just magically disappear.

So, logically, the liquid has to go SOMEWHERE away from the heat to cool and come back. This by no means eliminates the need for fans.

It doesn't necessarily require fans either. The microchannels of warm fluid could be thermally coupled to the structure of the computer/laptop. This increases the radiative surface area and could make use of ambient airflow to dissipate the excess watts. It doesn't matter where you move the heat to ... just get it away from the electronics and smear it out. The universe will continue onward towards its inevitable heat death ... speeded along by Intel Pentiums and less so by G5s ...

 

[robodweeb]

Re: Cooligy comes from Stanford ME research...

Originally posted by ibidanon
I am a Stanford EE grad student and was interested to discover that this work comes out of some Stanford reasearch. Check out the following link:

http://me.stanford.edu/globals/goodson2.html

Excellent link! Folks have been wondering how the fluid would be impelled through the microchannels and the electro-osmotic pump described in this link sounds like an extremely innovative solution.

 

[tbdavis]

Originally posted by reyesmac
I can't remember Apple ever using a brand new technology that they didnt invent for any of their products. The technology has to be around for quite a while and work for them to start using it.

According to this PDF http://web.mit.edu/hmtl/www/papers/GOODSONpres.pdf , Apple demoed a version of the ElectroOsmotic Microchannel Cooler on a dual processor system in 2002.

And for all those worried about the additional mechanical complexity of such a system. It's not mechanical. It's electrokinetic. See http://www.stanford.edu/~dlaser/silicon_eo_pumps/silicon_eo_pumps.htm for more details on what that means.

 

[Analog Kid]

Re: Re: Cooligy comes from Stanford ME research...

Originally posted by robodweeb
Excellent link! Folks have been wondering how the fluid would be impelled through the microchannels and the electro-osmotic pump described in this link sounds like an extremely innovative solution.

Ah, a Caterpillar Drive!

I was wondering what those symetric doors were at the bow of the case, and then again at the aft...

 

[Analog Kid]

Re: Re: Re: MicroChannel isn't new technology

Originally posted by yamabushi
IBM and MS worked together for a while on a next generation OS project, then split over differences in opinion as to the best design. IBM wanted a clean break while MS wanted more continuity with legacy OS design. The result was OS/2 and Windows NT. Issues about ownership and marketing probably caused some confusion at the time.

Basically, IBM got stiffed twice my MS. First on DOS, then (thank you sir! may I have another?!) on OS/2.

The first time, IBM arguably didn't know what they had with the whole PC thing and just got sloppy with the contracts. The second time it should have all been crystal clear and MS played them like suckers.

 

[ClimbingTheLog]

Originally posted by reyesmac
I can't remember Apple ever using a brand new technology that they didnt invent for any of their products. The technology has to be around for quite a while and work for them to start using it.

802.11b? 802.11g? USB? PCI-X? Pixo OS?