Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Agreed on the first part. There is no best for everyone. But there is still objectively better in terms of software, and that's all I really say.

I don't think software is objectively better just because it has a couple features 99.9% of people will never ever use.

BTW- Numbers has many more complicated abilities that I haven't learned how to use yet, like conditional calculations and highlighting items based on a conditional trigger. But, since Apple provides a bunch of templates, I was able to use the feature where checking an item's checkbox means that item's cost will be included in the final calculation. Was great for monitoring my new basement bathroom costs as I bought the items on my checklist. I have no idea how I would set up a spreadsheet like that in Excel.
 
Last edited:
Actually, when my nephew puts up new walls in my basement, he uses a nail gun, not a hammer, lol. I use a hammer for small jobs, like hanging a picture. I recently bought an electric brad nailer because I didn't want to use a hammer to work on my kitchen cabinets. Hammers ARE becoming obsolete.

I've seen far too many of my friends shoot themselves in the hand with a nailgun to ever be truly trusting of them.

...but then again, my friends are kinda dumb.
 
I really really really hate Siri, I find she never can understand what I want and always gives me terrible results for navigation requests. Hopefully Cortana will be able to tie in with navigation because for windows phone Cortana did a great job for me (although Here maps was terrible so hopefully it works with something other than that)

Siri has issues when I use it on my phone, but I don't think I've had any problem with using it on my watch. Maybe my mouth is closer to the mic? Whatever it is, Siri is much nicer when it works :D
 
So Numbers is better for you. That doesn't make Excel bad.

Most users of Excel or Numbers aren't Advanced Users.

You know why I ever get ANY Excel spreadsheets from a client? Because for some odd reason, they like to lay out textual information in a table and they don't know how to do it in Word. There's your advanced business use, lol. And I love that their files always come with all those blank tabs. Thankfully, it's easy for me to open it in Numbers and clean it all up.
 
I think maybe this is an expression of a very dated perspective. Microsoft dominated. It's not dominating.

Uh yes it is. Microsoft still has the dominant office suite and dominant computer OS. If you don't know that then you're eyes have been closed for the past 10 years or so.
 
Ah, so being forced to use a tool for your job is inertia. "I want to use X, but I need Y" is simply a way of saying "I need a tool that works for my job". Also, the argument about Macs is pointless because Office is on OS X. Seriously, poor argument.

Forcing someone to use a tool they don't want to use is counterproductive.

And Office for Mac sucks. PowerPoint in particular is NOT very cross platform, which is why I don't own it for working on the few PowerPoints I get from clients. It's less work (but more expensive for me) to maintain a Bootcamp copy of Windows and Office than to try to work with a Windows PPT file in Mac PPT.

----------

Uh yes it is. Microsoft still has the dominant office suite and dominant computer OS. If you don't know that then you're eyes have been closed for the past 10 years or so.

Yes, it's still common but it's declining. That's the point. More and more people are simply buying their own computer for work rather than accept what they are handed by their employer. And many in upper management can simply insist they are issued a Mac.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/247749/more_businesses_will_choose_mac_over_windows_report.html

chartforapple-8691394.jpg
 
Last edited:
"Initially"? How about "never"? I can't see Apple relaxing iOS that much, giving an app access to system-controlling features such as launching native apps. And I also bet that you won't be able to start Cortana by holding the home button. Even apps like Launch Center work only with specific 3rd-party apps. I would bet that Cortana will launch MS apps, such as Office.

In other words, Cortana will be allowed very limited functionality in iOS, which will reduce its usefulness.

MS probably sees it as a gateway.
Once people get used to using Cortana on IOS/Android they may start looking for a more complex experience and consider a Windows Phone.
 
Yes, it's still common but it's declining. That's the point. More and more people are simply buying their own computer for work rather than accept what they are handed by their employer. And many in upper management can simply insist they are issued a Mac.

Not really. Office 365 subscriptions are up by huge amounts, and Azure is their quickest growing platform. MS is just as profitable and growing as they've ever been. Only their Windows division has seen a slight decline, but that's due more to mobile options eating away at the desktop/laptop market than it is from people choosing Macs.
 
MS probably sees it as a gateway.
Once people get used to using Cortana on IOS/Android they may start looking for a more complex experience and consider a Windows Phone.

Not sure if "complex" is the word you were looking for... But if capability has anything to do with the breadth of apps available I can't see looking for Windows Phone coming from iOS (or Android).
 
You know why I ever get ANY Excel spreadsheets from a client? Because for some odd reason, they like to lay out textual information in a table and they don't know how to do it in Word. There's your advanced business use, lol. And I love that their files always come with all those blank tabs. Thankfully, it's easy for me to open it in Numbers and clean it all up.

I'm glad you know how every company uses Excel.

Forcing someone to use a tool they don't want to use is counterproductive.

And Office for Mac sucks. PowerPoint in particular is NOT very cross platform, which is why I don't own it for working on the few PowerPoints I get from clients. It's less work (but more expensive for me) to maintain a Bootcamp copy of Windows and Office than to try to work with a Windows PPT file in Mac PPT.

----------



Yes, it's still common but it's declining. That's the point. More and more people are simply buying their own computer for work rather than accept what they are handed by their employer. And many in upper management can simply insist they are issued a Mac.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/247749/more_businesses_will_choose_mac_over_windows_report.html

Image

Most companies force people to use tools, even if they don't like them. It's far more productive to have a standard set of tools than it is to let people use whatever they want.
 
Not really. Office 365 subscriptions are up by huge amounts, and Azure is their quickest growing platform. MS is just as profitable and growing as they've ever been. Only their Windows division has seen a slight decline, but that's due more to mobile options eating away at the desktop/laptop market than it is from people choosing Macs.

Office 365 subscriptions being up isn't indicative of a growth of Windows usage. It's just current people being forced to upgrade. And it's not a good deal:

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...y-microsoft-up-to-80-more-over-long-haul.html

Azure. Don't know anything about it so can't comment. If they succeed in cloud storage, good on them. Hope it's not as crappy as that Windows server/asp. Whenever I have an issue with using a website, it's almost always written for Windows server instead of Unix.
 
Last edited:
Office 365 subscriptions being up isn't indicative of a growth of Windows usage. It's just current people being forced to upgrade.

Azure. Don't know anything about it so can't comment. If they succeed in cloud storage, good on them. Hope it's not as crappy as that Windows server/asp. Whenever I have an issue with using a website, it's almost always written for Windows server instead of Unix.

Forced to upgrade? When did non-365 versions stop working?
 
Forced to upgrade? When did non-365 versions stop working?

Ok, forced probably wasn't a good word for it. I can still buy individual copies of Adobe products but I am basically forced to buy the subscription model because it makes more sense financially because they make the cost of individual items so expensive. And I'm "forced" to upgrade to keep up with my clients and to use the latest add ons.
 
Ok, forced probably wasn't a good word for it. I can still buy individual copies of Adobe products but I am basically forced to buy the subscription model because it makes more sense financially because they make the cost of individual items so expensive.

That's an incentive, paying over time for a program and continuously getting updates. I see that only as a positive.
 
I'm glad you know how every company uses Excel.



Most companies force people to use tools, even if they don't like them. It's far more productive to have a standard set of tools than it is to let people use whatever they want.

My Excel example was to illustrate that most people I know aren't power users of any Office product. I've seen people lay out posters in PowerPoint, create books for large-scale printing in Word (which was a royal pain in the *** when I worked at a printing service bureau). Most business people are very basic and random with their computer usage and I've had to show many PC users how to do basic things. They could just as easily use a Mac with Pages, Numbers and Keynote and would probably enjoy it more.

I can save out my Pages, Numbers and Keynote files to their respective Office products in order to collaborate. Just have to stick to cross-platform fonts. And Apple provides a way for Windows users to update Pages, Numbers and Keynote documents online. For simply sharing documents with Windows people to view, I can always make pdfs for perfect compatibility. Nowadays, it's not that hard to allow people to use the computers they prefer. The design departments of businesses have been using Macs just fine for decades. Sure there are employees with very specific task needs, like when I needed a Mac in order to analyze data with JMP. But most office workers could use any computer to do their job.
 
Last edited:
Actually, when my nephew puts up new walls in my basement, he uses a nail gun, not a hammer, lol. I use a hammer for small jobs, like hanging a picture. I recently bought an electric brad nailer because I didn't want to use a hammer to work on my kitchen cabinets. Hammers ARE becoming obsolete.
hammers will never in your lifetime be obsolete.
 
That's an incentive, paying over time for a program and continuously getting updates. I see that only as a positive.

If you don't mind paying more over the long run.

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...y-microsoft-up-to-80-more-over-long-haul.html

Plus, don't IT departments like to slow roll updates?

----------

hammers will never in your lifetime be obsolete.

Only because they are cheaper than more powerful tools. Like most PCs :D

I also use my manual screwdrivers less now that I have a motorized one. Still have them lying around and if they are handy at the moment would use them but use them less often overall because the motorized one is more pleasant to use.
 
Office 365 subscriptions being up isn't indicative of a growth of Windows usage. It's just current people being forced to upgrade. And it's not a good deal:

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...y-microsoft-up-to-80-more-over-long-haul.html

Pretty much what Goff said. MS is still selling Office standalone.

And really, whether you think it's a great deal or not depends on how you look at it. If you see it as subscribing to Office, it sucks. If you see it as getting cloud storage with Office added in as a bonus, it's great.

Right now, iCloud costs $20 a month for 1TB storage. I get unlimited storage on 365 plus Office for $9.99. You really can't beat that, especially if you use the cloud as redundant storage like I do.
 
If you don't mind paying more over the long run.

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...y-microsoft-up-to-80-more-over-long-haul.html

Plus, don't IT departments like to slow roll updates?
Most large IT departments like the company I work for (70K users) buy licenses in bulk.
Office 365 is not even on our radar.

Individuals can still purchase the Office suites directly from MS as well.

Office for Home and Student 2013 (Word, Excel, PowerPoint and OneNote) is only $140 and you own it. No Office 365 subscription required.

Office for Home and Business 2013 (Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook and OneNote) is only $219, again, you own it.

The full suite is still pricey though at $399. Not sure adding Publisher and Access are worth the additional $180 though.
 
Good one! :)

Image

----------



I used Word/Excel for over 10 YEARS. Hated them. Worst pieces of crap EVER.

Moved to Pages/Numbers for the past 5 years. Love them.

Let me tell you a little fairy-tale about "worst pieces of crap" called MS Office and all-too-shiny software called iWork, if you don't mind.
First of all, I have been using only Macs and Apple products in general for more than 10 years now.
Six years ago I started my own company and, of course I was thinking very similar to you: who needs the crappy office, when we, mac users, have our own shiny productivity marvel.
Having some IT knowledge, I was aware of certain iWork limitations, but the usability seemed so much better to me at that point...
So, as you might imagine, we started to use iWork only for all our business needs... A decision, which almost ended to be a disaster for us.

Here are some facts from own experience:

1. LOCKED DOWN FILE FORMAT

You can name MS Office everything you want, but its Open XML file formats are documented enough to be understood by any other office suite, iWork included. Try to do that other way around with iWork file! Fail!
Yes, there still may be some formatting issues, when opening in everything other than Office itself, but you know, you can still access you data, regardless of the software used.
It comes even better: Office now seems to understand the Open Document formats as well, it has even asked us, which format we want to use by default!
Again, go try to open .ODT with those iWork apps!

2. COMPATIBILITY

With new iWork apps Apple broke down its own file format for the previous iWork software:
- try to open a Numbers 3.X file in Numbers 09. Inexcusable fail!
- try to edit a Numbers 09 file you got from someone else in Numbers 3.X and save back to it natively without exporting and any loss. Fail!
- try the heck to open a Numbers 08 file with a new Numbers 3.X! You have to export it to Numbers 09 format first! Lord help you, if you don’t own Nuberst 09. Epic fail!


3. FUNCTIONALITY


I will not explain you the benefits of “crappy” office, but in enterprise environment you will appreciate the pivot table functionality, the ability to remove duplicates in a heartbeat, the ability to have some freaking great addons, like AbleBits Excel suite and many more!

But not even these things were driving me nuts, it was Apple itself, who had an ingenious idea to strip existing features in new iWork without any replace! Yes, they did promise to return some, but until now it is pathetic, what they have delivered.

To summarize all above I personally consider a suicide to use iWork apps in any serious productive environment! Not only you have to deal with some nonsense limitations, but you are totally at Apple’s mercy, when it comes to your data! I wouldn’t even consider iWork for home environment because of all above.

Nevertheless, have fun in your golden cage. It might become too small to fit someday, and your burning desire would be nothing but the door key!
 
This is good and I'm glad to see it happening but unless you can make cortana replace Siri as the default AI in iOS I don't see this ever becoming too popular for iOS users.

I agree completely. No matter how good the alternatives are, they're all severely crippled in the same way on iOS—they aren't the default and they aren't integrated into the OS. Apple will never, ever let anyone else take Siri's place there. They won't even let anyone change the default map app (I want Siri to send me to Google for directions but that'll never happen).
 
Pretty much what Goff said. MS is still selling Office standalone.

And really, whether you think it's a great deal or not depends on how you look at it. If you see it as subscribing to Office, it sucks. If you see it as getting cloud storage with Office added in as a bonus, it's great.

Right now, iCloud costs $20 a month for 1TB storage. I get unlimited storage on 365 plus Office for $9.99. You really can't beat that, especially if you use the cloud as redundant storage like I do.
Good point... and that is WORST case. :)

Office 365 @ $9.99 is the per-month rate. The annual subscription rate comes out to $8.33/month. Shopping around, it isn't difficult to get it for $5.59/month. And THAT is for 5 Windows/Mac devices and 5 tablets.

Also, with regard to automatic upgrades, one can decline to upgrade if a newer version comes out.

For me, OneDrive is pretty worthless. Syncing doesn't work as well nor is it as flexible as DropBox. But that's a reflection of my workflow.
 
Let me tell you a little fairy-tale about "worst pieces of crap" called MS Office and all-too-shiny software called iWork, if you don't mind.
First of all, I have been using only Macs and Apple products in general for more than 10 years now.
Six years ago I started my own company and, of course I was thinking very similar to you: who needs the crappy office, when we, mac users, have our own shiny productivity marvel.
Having some IT knowledge, I was aware of certain iWork limitations, but the usability seemed so much better to me at that point...
So, as you might imagine, we started to use iWork only for all our business needs... A decision, which almost ended to be a disaster for us.

Here are some facts from own experience:

1. LOCKED DOWN FILE FORMAT

You can name MS Office everything you want, but its Open XML file formats are documented enough to be understood by any other office suite, iWork included. Try to do that other way around with iWork file! Fail!
Yes, there still may be some formatting issues, when opening in everything other than Office itself, but you know, you can still access you data, regardless of the software used.
It comes even better: Office now seems to understand the Open Document formats as well, it has even asked us, which format we want to use by default!
Again, go try to open .ODT with those iWork apps!

2. COMPATIBILITY

With new iWork apps Apple broke down its own file format for the previous iWork software:
- try to open a Numbers 3.X file in Numbers 09. Inexcusable fail!
- try to edit a Numbers 09 file you got from someone else in Numbers 3.X and save back to it natively without exporting and any loss. Fail!
- try the heck to open a Numbers 08 file with a new Numbers 3.X! You have to export it to Numbers 09 format first! Lord help you, if you don’t own Nuberst 09. Epic fail!


3. FUNCTIONALITY


I will not explain you the benefits of “crappy” office, but in enterprise environment you will appreciate the pivot table functionality, the ability to remove duplicates in a heartbeat, the ability to have some freaking great addons, like AbleBits Excel suite and many more!

But not even these things were driving me nuts, it was Apple itself, who had an ingenious idea to strip existing features in new iWork without any replace! Yes, they did promise to return some, but until now it is pathetic, what they have delivered.

To summarize all above I personally consider a suicide to use iWork apps in any serious productive environment! Not only you have to deal with some nonsense limitations, but you are totally at Apple’s mercy, when it comes to your data! I wouldn’t even consider iWork for home environment because of all above.

Nevertheless, have fun in your golden cage. It might become too small to fit someday, and your burning desire would be nothing but the door key!

To be fair, Powerpoint had version incompatibility issues as well. The transition to the xml structure was painful for me until everyone got to PPT 2003.
 
To be fair, Powerpoint had version incompatibility issues as well. The transition to the xml structure was painful for me until everyone got to PPT 2003.

No doubts. I can remember the transition from .doc to .docx formats back then (and all those people on the barricades ;)). Did it actually start with Office 2007?

Never mind, fact is: even having certain compatibility issues, you can still access your data, edit those old files and even save to those old formats from pretty much every version of Office.
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.