Microsoft Announces Intel Atom-Based Surface 3 With Windows 8.1 for $499

[bkkcanuck]

OSx is heavily influenced, and I believe still gets their POSIX compliance (that might have changed)

I could not have said that much clearer or better.

The only thing I would clear up is that OS X .... is .... UNIX 03 Certified.... POSIX is a rather easy standard to say you're compliant with, I believe even Windows can.

UNIX 03

The only reason why Linux can't/won't get certified is the process takes money.... and they don't need it.

Even IBM's newest large "server hardware" is pushing people away from using AIX (IBM's UNIX) and pushing towards using Linux as the preferred operating system on it.

 

[Michael Goff]

There are many thoughts behind that.

1. Linux is open source standard. Nobody is going to profit over educating how to use a computer based on these standards. If you focus on Microsoft Windows or OSx, children become "indoctrinated" into a corporate sponsored platform. When they graduate and get older, they are more likely to want to stick within their comfort area.

2. The majority of the tech world believe it or not relies heavily on some un*x variant. Even OSx is heavily influenced, and I believe still gets their POSIX compliance (that might have changed)

3. The Fundamentals of computing are not much different between each platform, however Linux provides a wide variety of tools, for free, such as compilers, image editors, GUIs that can be custom tailored for the education system and curriculum at hand.

4. Understanding Linux fundamentals should provide a better understanding at how the underlying hardware functions. Both Windows and OSx today like to mask most of these things behind veneer and fresh paint so to speak. they're aimed at "dumb" users and idiot proofing. Making things the simplest without knowing how they work. Linux is more transparent in this regard.

at least thats my .04 on it

And if they learn Linux, then go to most offices to do office work, they're going to be using Windows and Office anyway. I'm sorry, that's just how it is.

 

[bkkcanuck]

I can't speak for corruption, but just in our discussion we really shouldn't muddy the waters with that as it's all speculation and we are not privy to what particular corruption is affecting those decisions. Certainly the ipad decision may have also been affected, who knows.

Corruption comes in many shades of grey. Imposing your bias in the decision making process is a form of corruption, and it is very hard not to favour what you are comfortable with. This is why the selection should be based on broad requirements such as what functionality it should provide and not selecting specific hardware or software vendors. The mentality has typically been we need all students to have access to technology at home as well as school so we will subsidize them..... without much really deep thought and said... lets standardize on iPads.... I have yet to see what educational "requirements" they are filling other than access to technology....

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And if they learn Linux, then go to most offices to do office work, they're going to be using Windows and Office anyway. I'm sorry, that's just how it is.

That is both a long way off and your prognostication may or may not be true.

My last contract was at a company that used Windows and Open Office for most of their staff since most staff were not deemed needing the "advanced" functionality of MS Office (and the company was cheap).

In either case, the kids will supposedly be technologically sophisticated and at the same time so mentally brittle that they cannot adjust to a dumbed down operating system

 

[Michael Goff]

Corruption comes in many shades of grey. Imposing your bias in the decision making process is a form of corruption, and it is very hard not to favour what you are comfortable with. This is why the selection should be based on broad requirements such as what functionality it should provide and not selecting specific hardware or software vendors. The mentality has typically been we need all students to have access to technology at home as well as school so we will subsidize them..... without much really deep thought and said... lets standardize on iPads.... I have yet to see what educational "requirements" they are filling other than access to technology....

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That is both a long way off and your prognostication may or may not be true.

In either case, the kids will supposedly be technologically sophisticated and at the same time so mentally brittle that they cannot adjust to a dumbed down operating system

So they're supposed to learn to use technology that most of them likely aren't going to be using in their professional life? That's what American schools are about, trying to get you ready for entering the work force.

As for them "not being able to adapt". that's not even remotely close to what I'm saying. There's no benefit to teaching them to use Linux, NONE. It's just more cost on the schools.

 

[bkkcanuck]

So they're supposed to learn to use technology that most of them likely aren't going to be using in their professional life? That's what American schools are about, trying to get you ready for entering the work force.

As for them "not being able to adapt". that's not even remotely close to what I'm saying. There's no benefit to teaching them to use Linux, NONE. It's just more cost on the schools.

American schools are now simply vocational institutes? How bad is education in the US these days? I guess the concept of a liberal education is now a bygone era

There is virtually NO benefit to indoctrinating the students into using one operating system over another from a user point of view since moving from one windowing operating system to another is a matter of hours or a few days worth of "getting to know your platform". If the same mentality was in place when I was a child I would have been indoctrinated into DOS and then "graduated" into Windows workforce. (actually I worked with DOS in the workforce first, and TRS-80s and a PDP-?? at school).

 

[spinedoc77]

Corruption comes in many shades of grey. Imposing your bias in the decision making process is a form of corruption, and it is very hard not to favour what you are comfortable with. This is why the selection should be based on broad requirements such as what functionality it should provide and not selecting specific hardware or software vendors. The mentality has typically been we need all students to have access to technology at home as well as school so we will subsidize them..... without much really deep thought and said... lets standardize on iPads.... I have yet to see what educational "requirements" they are filling other than access to technology....

I still don't think corruption is a part of the debate, unless you have concrete proof of corruption or can specifically outline how this alleged corruption affects the process. We can all throw the word corruption out there, but to use it as an excuse for the educator to not have the final say on hardware/OS isn't the right thing to do. I agree that the selection should be based on the functionality it provides, no disagreement there, but the educator is the best person to make that decision, not the students themselves. Sorry, I'm all for empowering the students, but there is a reason the educator is the educator.

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American schools are now simply vocational institutes? How bad is education in the US these days? I guess the concept of a liberal education is now a bygone era

There is virtually NO benefit to indoctrinating the students into using one operating system over another from a user point of view since moving from one windowing operating system to another is a matter of hours or a few days worth of "getting to know your platform". If the same mentality was in place when I was a child I would have been indoctrinated into DOS and then "graduated" into Windows workforce. (actually I worked with DOS in the workforce first, and TRS-80s and a PDP-?? at school).

If that's true then why not put them on windows? They can learn Linux in a "matter of hours or a few days" as you put it. From my point of view windows rules the world, like it or not. The sooner students learn its ins and outs the better. If they need to specialize then of course their curriculum would provide for that specialization. I also agree with diversity, give them some of everything. Some OSx, some Linux, some Unix, some programming languages, etc etc. But if finances dictate they can only learn on one specific platform then it should be the one they will most likely encounter when in the real world.

 

[bkkcanuck]

I still don't think corruption is a part of the debate, unless you have concrete proof of corruption or can specifically outline how this alleged corruption affects the process. We can all throw the word corruption out there, but to use it as an excuse for the educator to not have the final say on hardware/OS isn't the right thing to do. I agree that the selection should be based on the functionality it provides, no disagreement there, but the educator is the best person to make that decision, not the students themselves. Sorry, I'm all for empowering the students, but there is a reason the educator is the educator.

Educators would be best served by investing their time in taking a page out of the "open source" community and developing "open source" educational materials and building something like a knowledge map (reference "mind map" organization of knowledge) that a student can learn from the best teachers in each of the subject matter. The advantages of technology is not a specific "operating system" or specific "software package" but in the ability to democratize access to learning material and empowering students to learn what interests themselves and not be held back by the school (the school should really be a minimum standard in a wide variety of subjects).

 

[2IS]

If Apple offered one device that integrates the functionality of tablet, laptop and pen devices people would buy it instead. Apple won't, though, because it's more profitable to sell more devices. The smarter consumers, for example Los Angeles school district, will switch brands like dropping iPad for Yoga, Surface, etc.

Perhaps so, but it isn't the point i'm making. I'm responding to the statement "most people fall into an either / or but not both category" which is quite simply, not true.

 

[bkkcanuck]

If that's true then why not put them on windows? They can learn Linux in a "matter of hours or a few days" as you put it. From my point of view windows rules the world, like it or not. The sooner students learn its ins and outs the better. If they need to specialize then of course their curriculum would provide for that specialization. I also agree with diversity, give them some of everything. Some OSx, some Linux, some Unix, some programming languages, etc etc. But if finances dictate they can only learn on one specific platform then it should be the one they will most likely encounter when in the real world.

Because you are not selecting a specific corporation to indoctrinate them into --- that is if you are selecting for the student. It is as bad as indoctrinating students into a specific corporations products as indoctrinating them into a specific parties ideology. I have said my preference is that the choice should be left with the childs family and the child -- as long as it meets a set of functional requirements.

 

[spinedoc77]

Because you are not selecting a specific corporation to indoctrinate them into --- that is if you are selecting for the student. It is as bad as indoctrinating students into a specific corporations products as indoctrinating them into a specific parties ideology. I have said my preference is that the choice should be left with the childs family and the child -- as long as it meets a set of functional requirements.

Yes we'd all like the protagonist in the Hunger Games to break free of the tyrannical rule, I certainly rooted for her. Sure I can see your pie in the sky rationale, give the students open source and they will learn and use that, thus changing the world to become altruistic and open source. I don't think that gives enough credit to the students critical thought process, just because they learn how to use Windows doesn't mean they won't consider other options, I think use of technology is a FAR cry from ideology or even theology as those are ingrained into society and family and carry a far greater stigma. Not giving a student the tools he needs to survive in some kind of fantasy world change society dream just does them a disservice and makes them a burden on society.

 

[Michael Goff]

American schools are now simply vocational institutes? How bad is education in the US these days? I guess the concept of a liberal education is now a bygone era

There is virtually NO benefit to indoctrinating the students into using one operating system over another from a user point of view since moving from one windowing operating system to another is a matter of hours or a few days worth of "getting to know your platform". If the same mentality was in place when I was a child I would have been indoctrinated into DOS and then "graduated" into Windows workforce. (actually I worked with DOS in the workforce first, and TRS-80s and a PDP-?? at school).

Education is pretty bad, but for other reasons. Also, stop using the term indoctrinating. It's pointless, and just serves to make you look like an open source zealot.

 

[bkkcanuck]

Education is pretty bad, but for other reasons. Also, stop using the term indoctrinating. It's pointless, and just serves to make you look like an open source zealot.

Well, I can't be an open source zealot because I actually use Apple hardware more than Linux

As I have said before I prefer the child/parents to be involved in selecting what is best for them based on functional requirements BUT if the education institution is going to force students to use specific products that they don't force a specific corporations products on the students (hence Linux). Linux does EVERYTHING that the student needs, so why force a specific companies products on the students if that is the case? Oh yes, some educator thinks either an iPad or a Windows is the best for the student based on their superior technical education

Then you have an argument that business uses Windows and Office so you should use them.... relying that technology will not change in 10 years time.... which I consider a facetious argument since technology has and is continuing to change fairly fast.

Other than the argument above, I have not heard an argument of why a specific corporations products should be forced on students? What functionality is on Windows or iPad that is not available elsewhere? Web pages? eBooks? Videos?

What is the functional requirements that are the foundation of forcing specific selections?

From all I can tell, and based on previous experience.... people choose what they are comfortable with and in this case a small select group people are selecting what THEY are comfortable with and forcing it down both the students and the parents throats.

 

[spinedoc77]

Well, I can't be an open source zealot because I actually use Apple hardware more than Linux

As I have said before I prefer the child/parents to be involved in selecting what is best for them based on functional requirements BUT if the education institution is going to force students to use specific products that they don't force a specific corporations products on the students (hence Linux). Linux does EVERYTHING that the student needs, so why force a specific companies products on the students if that is the case? Oh yes, some educator thinks either an iPad or a Windows is the best for the student based on their superior technical education

Then you have an argument that business uses Windows and Office so you should use them.... relying that technology will not change in 10 years time.... which I consider a facetious argument since technology has and is continuing to change fairly fast.

Other than the argument above, I have not heard an argument of why a specific corporations products should be forced on students? What functionality is on Windows or iPad that is not available elsewhere? Web pages? eBooks? Videos?

What is the functional requirements that are the foundation of forcing specific selections?

From all I can tell, and based on previous experience.... people choose what they are comfortable with and in this case a small select group people are selecting what THEY are comfortable with and forcing it down both the students and the parents throats.

You're defeating your own argument. Why should Linux be forced on students? What is available on Linux that isn't available on Windows? You already said a student can switch in a matter of hours or days, so why not teach them what is dominant in the work force and let them branch out as their advanced curriculum, college or work training requires them to? As for technology changing fast, well then what does your crystal ball say and what technology should students prepare for that will be dominant in 10 years?

 

[bkkcanuck]

You're defeating your own argument. Why should Linux be forced on students? What is available on Linux that isn't available on Windows? You already said a student can switch in a matter of hours or days, so why not teach them what is dominant in the work force and let them branch out as their advanced curriculum, college or work training requires them to? As for technology changing fast, well then what does your crystal ball say and what technology should students prepare for that will be dominant in 10 years?

No I am not defeating my own argument, my argument is that it does not matter what the operating system is there is little advantage of one over the other under ANY functional criteria for the student. I used Windows, I was able to use "OS X" the day I bought the machine. One windowing platform is not so different from another. So why pay a corporation for the pleasure of locking in students???

Now there is an argument that Apple laptops are more popular on University campuses than Windows products, as such some select group of people say that they will only allow Apple products for classroom use.... since they are really preparing their students to go on to University.... it is the same sort of logic. I gather from your responses that that would be a perfectly valid criteria to force on students....

BTW, I spent more on books than I any of the products that are available today....

 

[spinedoc77]

No I am not defeating my own argument, my argument is that it does not matter what the operating system is there is little advantage of one over the other under ANY functional criteria for the student. I used Windows, I was able to use "OS X" the day I bought the machine. One windowing platform is not so different from another. So why pay a corporation for the pleasure of locking in students???

Now there is an argument that Apple laptops are more popular on University campuses than Windows products, as such some select group of people say that they will only allow Apple products for classroom use.... since they are really preparing their students to go on to University.... it is the same sort of logic. I gather from your responses that that would be a perfectly valid criteria to force on students....

BTW, I spent more on books than I any of the products that are available today....

I see, so your only beef is that a corporation is making money right? But even if you use Linux someone is still making money. The hardware manufacturer of the PC itself. Additionally if students were to get tablets are there Linux tablets available today?

I suppose personally I don't care if a corporation makes money, that's the way it is. Yes corruption may be an issue, but then the issue isn't the choice but that someone is committing a crime and that's something entirely different.

 

[saturnotaku]

I see, so your only beef is that a corporation is making money right?

This is what I picture.

 

[bkkcanuck]

I see, so your only beef is that a corporation is making money right? But even if you use Linux someone is still making money. The hardware manufacturer of the PC itself. Additionally if students were to get tablets are there Linux tablets available today?

I suppose personally I don't care if a corporation makes money, that's the way it is. Yes corruption may be an issue, but then the issue isn't the choice but that someone is committing a crime and that's something entirely different.

My beef is that they are focusing on the wrong criteria. The criteria is define what it is used for, what are the functional requirements that must be met, then leaving the decision on the device to individuals (children / parents).

The better solution is to put together the requirements that the devices must be capable of and allow all competitors to state if their devices meet their requirements and then put on the list of devices that suit the requirements then let the parents decide. Functional requirements such as must be able to play MP4 videos, view PDFs/epubs, access web pages, edit documents and save them in a standard format for papers, etc. They can put industry reviews of each of the products beside the list for parents to check out. Sort them by operating system if parents are more comfortable with one over the other... etc.

 

[spinedoc77]

This is what I picture.

Lol, yeah kind of fitting.

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My beef is that they are focusing on the wrong criteria. The criteria is define what it is used for, what are the functional requirements that must be met, then leaving the decision on the device to individuals (children / parents).

The better solution is to put together the requirements that the devices must be capable of and allow all competitors to state if their devices meet their requirements and then put on the list of devices that suit the requirements then let the parents decide. Functional requirements such as must be able to play MP4 videos, view PDFs/epubs, access web pages, edit documents and save them in a standard format for papers, etc. They can put industry reviews of each of the products beside the list for parents to check out. Sort them by operating system if parents are more comfortable with one over the other... etc.

So then you have every student with a different device/OS/platform/hardware? no standardization? What if the school wants to make it's own program/app for students? What if it wants to monitor their progress, assignments, if they are goofing off or playing games in class, etc etc. Standardization is there for a reason. You can't just have everyone bring in what they want. Should we let the students bring in whatever textbook they want? How would a teacher formulate a lesson plan or assignments?

 

[bkkcanuck]

Lol, yeah kind of fitting.

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So then you have every student with a different device/OS/platform/hardware? no standardization? What if the school wants to make it's own program/app for students? What if it wants to monitor their progress, assignments, if they are goofing off or playing games in class, etc etc. Standardization is there for a reason. You can't just have everyone bring in what they want.

If standardization is there for a reason then why allow people to pick anything other than an iPad which was the school boards position?

You really think an individual school is going to write an application? Most teachers are barely technically literate. And there is no guarantee that all teachers within the same school are all going to use one platform themselves even if they are literate. I would bet more of the students are technically literate rather than the teachers...

Maybe they should just dictate java as the standard for writing apps since it is cross-platform then? Oops, does not quite run on iPad.... so app standardization cannot be the case for standardization.

 

[spinedoc77]

If standardization is there for a reason then why allow people to pick anything other than an iPad which was the school boards position?

You really think an individual school is going to write an application? Most teachers are barely technically literate. And there is no guarantee that all teachers within the same school are all going to use one platform themselves even if they are literate. I would bet more of the students are technically literate rather than the teachers...

Maybe they should just dictate java as the standard for writing apps since it is cross-platform then? Oops, does not quite run on iPad.... so app standardization cannot be the case for standardization.

Yes but I am far from advocating the ipad, and you outlined one of the reasons I wouldn't, it's too primitive and proprietary. As far as writing an application, I don't see an individual school doing it but a larger educational company, in fact there are already apps and programs written for educational uses, hundreds of them I'll bet, you shouldn't be so short sighted. Standardization must be implemented or costs and confusion will be sky high.

Anyhow I don't think we are getting very far here, lol. Ok so we disagree, lets move on.

 

[freeskier93]

You're going to play ignorant and pretend torrent add-ons for XBMC/Kodi don't exist?

Are you sure you didn't switch from Plex to XBMC/Kodi?

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=191550

You don't seem to have an issue either discussing torrent downloads.

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=20741433

So, you don't have an issue with using the equivalent XBMC/Kodi, jailbreaking, torrenting, etc. but selectively judge others. Can you say 'hypocrite'? You might also want to review your UCMJ.

You seem to be wildly confused about the intent of my original post. I never judged or criticize you for torrenting illegally, I'm just not sure why anyone would expect to do this on an iOS device.

Obviously XBMC and Plex are widely used by people who illegally torrent their media, but there are also a lot of people who don't use it for that. Of course it should be reiterated that torrenting in itself is not illegal, it depends on what you are torrenting. Popcorn Time however is 100% illegal, it does not have any legal aspect, and therefore would have no chance in hell of being in the App store.

So once again I ask, you're really complaining that an illegal service like Popcorn Time isn't on the App store?

When I first built my media server long ago I first used Plex, but at the time there was some very annoying bugs and missing functionality, so I switched to XBMC. With XMBC I ran an HTTP/MySQL server for remote access, but after a while of constant upkeep I switched back to Plex. The PVR stuff isn't as slick with Plex, but Plex can play WMC video files so a simple automated utility moves the video files from the WMC directory to Plex, which allows me to remote watch.

 

[Naimfan]

Yes, it's funny that these kids get it but you don't. When not forced with a limited iPad they choose something better when given a choice. That's smart considering they're getting early exposure to Windows which will better prepare them for the real Windows dominated world.

http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-lausd-laptops-20140630-story.html

Sigh.

Sense of humor failure.

Let's just say that the LA school district has never been regarded as a particularly informed consumer. Your ad hominem attack reveals far more about your shallowness and indoctrination than perhaps you intended.

Good day.

 

[Michael Goff]

Something I saw about the x7 and A8X when compared:

1808/4529 (iPad Air 2)
952/3233 (Surface 3)

And for laughs:
1609/2888 (iPhone 6+)

http://browser.primatelabs.com/ios-benchmarks
http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/2251059

How has this happened? Intel is a company that makes processors. Shouldn't they be able to make something that's better than this?

 

[rowspaxe]

The situation is improving, and is better than it was 1-1.5 years ago... which is why I'm revisiting Windows tablets/hybrids now.

Although I am a fan of MS's surface initialtive--the limitations of the ecosystem are severe. The store is a total mess--setting aside content--just the presentation is a disaster. And marketing media through xbox never made any sense to me.

The best thing that could happen in the windows world would be a modern itunes app: so at least the media issues would be addressed. I can live without the apps, although i know this is an minority position

 

[diamond.g]

Something I saw about the x7 and A8X when compared:

1808/4529 (iPad Air 2)
952/3233 (Surface 3)

And for laughs:
1609/2888 (iPhone 6+)

http://browser.primatelabs.com/ios-benchmarks
http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/2251059

How has this happened? Intel is a company that makes processors. Shouldn't they be able to make something that's better than this?

Well the score you posted was for the free version of GeekBench which only does 32-bit not 64-bit tests.

That and Atom uses a different microarch from Core, so there is that as well...