Microsoft announces repairable Surface Laptop - now, if only Apple would!

BigBoy2018

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Here's a Microsoft trend I absolutely hope Apple adopts. To me, part of great design is building it in a way that looks good, but doesn't break the bank if it needs a new storage drive or ram.

 

maflynn

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Apple would rather sell you a new laptop then have you repair your existing machine, OR charge you an obscenely large repair bill for some simple fixes. Tim Cook as complained that people were fixing their iPhones instead of getting a new one once, while this comment was for phones and not laptops, the idea is the same

I will say that I was surprised by the MS move, because Microsoft basically copied Apple's business model for laptops. Very expensive computers that are virtually sealed. Its a welcome change nonetheless.
 

leman

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I don't understand the excitement. How is this more reparable than what Apple has been shipping for years?
The issue with the Surface Laptop was the fact that it's previous models were completely glued together and you would make a mess just trying to open it up. So now MS has reversed its course and is basically doing the same thing Apple has been doing since forever, and its somehow being praise-worthy?
 

Falhófnir

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I don't understand the excitement. How is this more reparable than what Apple has been shipping for years?
The issue with the Surface Laptop was the fact that it's previous models were completely glued together and you would make a mess just trying to open it up. So now MS has reversed its course and is basically doing the same thing Apple has been doing since forever, and its somehow being praise-worthy?
The difference is with the MacBooks, you can take the bottom panel off without damaging it, and that's about it. If you need to repair or replace anything, take it to Apple and they will bill you for a whole logic board if you're out of warranty/ AppleCare*. With the Surface Laptop you can open it up, and the storage module is replaceable individually, at the very least.

*The MacBook Air is slightly better in this regard, with the ports on small modular boards.
 
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leman

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but doesn't break the bank if it needs a new storage drive or ram.
RAM in Surface Laptop 3 is soldered-on, just like in Apple laptops. The SSD is removable, but a) MS says its not suer-replaceable and b) it uses a small-form-factor M.2 standard for SSDs that won't give you much choice in terms of upgrades.
 
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leman

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With the Surface Laptop you can open it up, and the storage module is replaceable individually, at the very least.
So in the end the only difference is that MS now gives you standard SSD slots (albeit they make your life difficult actually using them) while Appel solders their SSDs on. It's commendable that MS gives you at least some flexibility now, that much is absolutely true, and I welcome that. But I don't think that that qualifies them as a paragon of repairable design. In my opinion, the enthusiasm in this regard is widely overblown. In the end, Surface Laptop 3 is a much better laptop now — but that's about it. In terms of upgradeability or (accessible) repairability it is still bottom tier, just like Apple's products.
 

willmtaylor

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Apple would rather sell you a new laptop then have you repair your existing machine, OR charge you an obscenely large repair bill for some simple fixes. Tim Cook as complained that people were fixing their iPhones instead of getting a new one once, while this comment was for phones and not laptops, the idea is the same

I will say that I was surprised by the MS move, because Microsoft basically copied Apple's business model for laptops. Very expensive computers that are virtually sealed. Its a welcome change nonetheless.
When did T. Cook complain about this? I can't find it. The only thing close was the Q1 2019 earnings report, but that can't be what you're referencing here.
 

revmacian

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... the enthusiasm in this regard is widely overblown.
Yes, they have an effective marketing team.

For me it all boils down to “how well will this device work with all of my other devices?” And, since the new Surface Laptop runs Microsoft Windows instead of macOS or iOS, it is dead right out of the gate. Now, if Microsoft would release a phone, a watch, a TV, a desktop computer, a home pod, a cloud service, and have them all work seamlessly with each other.. then I would be willing to consider the device. There is much to be said for things like Continuity, Handoff, iCloud Drive, iCloud Tabs, iCloud Keychain, Find My and other iCloud services.
 

maflynn

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willmtaylor

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Yes, like I said, I'm seeing a CEO adjust earning expectations to investors there for a wide variety of reasons. I don't see him complaining about reparability. Do you?

I mean, that's definitely how the pundits spun the headlines, but if one reads the articles....

To be clear, I'm not saying Apple is a "pro repair" company--they're obviously not--I just don't can't find anywhere that Mr. Cook has complained about this (the aforelinked article not excluded).
 

maflynn

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Yes, like I said, I'm seeing a CEO adjust earning expectations to investors there for a wide variety of reasons. I don't see him complaining about reparability. Do you?
I see him complaining that sales are down due in part the high price and people opting to to repair their phones, which is the point i was making
 
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willmtaylor

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I see him complaining that sales are down due in part the high price and people opting to to repair their phones, which is the point i was making
I'm not trying to pick nits, as I agree with the overall sentiment, but I'm still not sure where you're getting that.
 

leman

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Apple would rather sell you a new laptop then have you repair your existing machine
You don't have to agree with me, it matters not, but that's my point.
Most companies would rather do what would give them the most profit, for obvious reasons. In practice however, I have never encountered a case where Apple or its service partners would try to sell me something new when I just wanted something repaired.

The thing is, I would 100% agree with you if you said something like "Economic repair is not a goal in Apple's design process". But the way how you phrase it now is simply not useful.
 

willmtaylor

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Sound like you are picking nits. Here's my point:


You don't have to agree with me, it matters not, but that's my point.
I’m not arguing your larger point; I simply wanted that to be clear.

Also, I wanted to clarify that I wasn’t being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

Here’s my point (and I’ll go away), you made a statement (that Cook has complained about folks repairing phones) that doesn’t seem to be substantiated. That’s not insignificant.
Peace.✌🏽
 
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maflynn

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that doesn’t seem to be substantiated. That’s not insignificant.
You misunderstood my point. It wasn't about repairability, but rather Tim Cook was complaining that [iphone] sales were down in part because people did not buy but rather repaired their phones. Simple ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I made no such comment that an iPhone was more or less repairable.
 

BigBoy2018

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So in the end the only difference is that MS now gives you standard SSD slots (albeit they make your life difficult actually using them) while Appel solders their SSDs on. It's commendable that MS gives you at least some flexibility now, that much is absolutely true, and I welcome that. But I don't think that that qualifies them as a paragon of repairable design. In my opinion, the enthusiasm in this regard is widely overblown. In the end, Surface Laptop 3 is a much better laptop now — but that's about it. In terms of upgradeability or (accessible) repairability it is still bottom tier, just like Apple's products.
In my original post, I said I liked the 'trend' and hoped Apple would follow it. I optimistically view it as the first move in potentially bigger trend of upgradability going forward ... not a sea-change in and of itself.

Apple has already listened to customers and we are getting the very upgradable Mac Pro ... so that's a good sign too. I just hope apple goes back to design laptops like the 2008 - 2012 models > most of which has very easily upgradable storage and ram.
 

revmacian

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Apple has already listened to customers and we are getting the very upgradable Mac Pro ... so that's a good sign too. I just hope apple goes back to design laptops like the 2008 - 2012 models > most of which has very easily upgradable storage and ram.
That would indeed be nice! Who knows, maybe this new laptop from Microsoft will prompt Apple to focus anew on user-serviceable notebooks.
 

Howard2k

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I see him complaining that sales are down due in part the high price and people opting to to repair their phones, which is the point i was making
Here it is:

While macroeconomic challenges in some markets were a key contributor to this trend, we believe there are other factors broadly impacting our iPhone performance, including consumers adapting to a world with fewer carrier subsidies, US dollar strength-related price increases, and some customers taking advantage of significantly reduced pricing for iPhone battery replacements.
A complaint, as defined by MW:

Definition of complaint

1: expression of grief, pain, or dissatisfaction She did her chores without complaint.
2a: something that is the cause or subject of protest or outcry Inefficiency was the main complaint against the local government.
b: a bodily ailment or disease The patient's complaint was frequent headaches.
3: a formal allegation against a party The complaint alleges sexual harassment.


Do Tim's words look like he's complaining? Or is it an explanation? Or comment?

Certainly it doesn't look like a complaint to me. I'm not being pedantic, but looking at the comments I think perhaps this is the source of confusion? You're saying he complained, but it really doesn't look like he did, based on how the word "complaint" should be used.
 
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Pakaku

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So in other words, it's a regular laptop. I guess what's old can always be new again
 

willmtaylor

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Here it is:



A complaint, as defined by MW:

Definition of complaint

1: expression of grief, pain, or dissatisfaction She did her chores without complaint.
2a: something that is the cause or subject of protest or outcry Inefficiency was the main complaint against the local government.
b: a bodily ailment or disease The patient's complaint was frequent headaches.
3: a formal allegation against a party The complaint alleges sexual harassment.


Do Tim's words look like he's complaining? Or is it an explanation? Or comment?

Certainly it doesn't look like a complaint to me. I'm not being pedantic, but looking at the comments I think perhaps the source of confusion? You're saying he complained, but it really doesn't look like he did, based on how the word "complaint" should be used.
Yes, my point. That you for explaining better than I.
 

redheeler

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leman

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In my original post, I said I liked the 'trend' and hoped Apple would follow it. I optimistically view it as the first move in potentially bigger trend of upgradability going forward ... not a sea-change in and of itself.
I understand your point but I can't say that I share your optimism. The trend in the industry has been clearly towards more integrated devices at the cost of repairability. And while MS might have reversed their design choices a bit, I just don't see this as a commitment to upgradeability... at most its just catching up with what others have had for a while.


Apple has already listened to customers and we are getting the very upgradable Mac Pro
Thats an odd one, given that we are talking about a high-end professional workstation that will be priced out of most prosumers (and even professionals) reach. Not to mention that "upgradeability" of the Mac Pro mostly means buying very expensive custom modules.

I just hope apple goes back to design laptops like the 2008 - 2012 models > most of which has very easily upgradable storage and ram.
I prefer my RAM faster, more efficient and more reliable instead ;)
- - Post merged: - -

This is quite an admission. Basically confirms that repair costs are high on purpose to ensure some people don't bother with the repair and instead buy a new one. For example, an iPhone 6s Plus screen replacement costs $169 - that means they are charging close to what the entire device is worth for a common repair.
Admission by whom? Mafflyn? What Cook wrote is quoted above your post, would take you a few seconds to read and will also save you the effort of creating wild conspiracy theories.