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Microsoft Argo: iPod Killer?

I'm all for competition, but this is just a bad idea. MS is only going to be competing with other WMA players like they do with their oh so successful Music Store. The business world is one thing, even gaming I could see them being somewhat successful with one of these years as that's what PCs seem to be best at. The xBox is just a little computer anyway. But this is a different kind of entertainment. It's about cool. It's about style. It's about stuff that people want to just work. MS doesn't have any of that. This will be a me too product that few will care about.

It's not like Apple's resting on it laurels either. I'm sure they've got something cool planned that'll blow us all away, or at least stave off the "competition" for a little while. I just hope it has better battery life. :p
 
MegaSignal said:
Precisely.

If Apple dumped FireWire IEEE1394 for the sake of slimness, it is highly doubtful that they'd re-clutter and fatten it up with Bluetooth (which, after trying for many years (with other devices) I have now considered to be worthless crap). Really - unless one can charge with built-in solar panels (as Citizen does with their watches), wireless is a non-issue.

The current iPod has panache. It is "sessy". Neither word describes MS at all...and it is because of this that the Argo will have a tough time of it.

As others have said earlier in this issue, the good that will come out of all of this is that Apple will provide us with a better iPod.
Click to expand...

Don't Intel have that new low power low range network chip that does Wi-fi, wireless firewire, wireless usb but only about 10m range they are pushing for home entertainment equipment. Get that build into the iPods (full size to start) and you have wireless that might be worth considering.

Then replace the dock connector with a magsafe power connector. to make charging a snap. sure you still need to get the battery life up a bit on current. It's starting to look like an interesting revision.

Yep MS have cash and exposure in other products to be a big threat to Apples iPod cashflow. Although Apple have the momentum, the options and range to keep themselves as first choice.

Hey I always wonder why Apple don't release iTunes for Playstation, or Nintendo.
 
if it happens this is a typical attemp by microsoft to copy the tactics of another company, put loads of money into marketing and bring about nothing innovative. great but i know who'd id rather give my money to.

if it doesnt play cool games, you'll know they blindly copied apple mistakes also.
 
Cinch said:
wireless (Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, Wi-Max whatever)? I used to think that this was a cool thing to have in an iPod. an iPod with internet radio capability sounds like a really cool idea. I'm lukewarm about now.
Click to expand...

I'm not. What would I like to see from Apple? What would my ideal iPod be like? Let's explore the possibilities.

Bluetooth-headphones. This would kick ass. No more wires that get tangled up. And it CAN be done!

Large touch-screen. No separate controls, the controls would be right in the display (like in the image that was linked before in this thread).

And before you say "but there would be fingerprints on the screen! And it wouldn't provide any tactile feedback!". Ah, but how about that "no-touch" controls that have been rumored? I have no idea that is it really possible, but what if? You could simply hover you finger 1cm from the screen and use the controls. No fingerprints. As to the tactile feedback.... Tactile feedback is used that you know where the controls are without actually looking at the screen. "No-touch" UI does not have this, because you aren't actually touching anything. So how do we make this work? Well, what if you could just put your finger close to the screen ANYWHERE on the screen. If you do circlular motion (like in current iPod) the device would scroll, adjust volume, and do the other things you can do on the current iPod. If you move your finger straigh up, it would be equivaltnof clicking "menu". Straight down would be play/pause and so forth.

As to WLAN and the like.... What if the new iPod could be tied to iChat? You could VOIP to/from the iPod. just turn on the wireless, and browse to the "buddy list" menu on your iPod, and you are all set. Hell, the iPod could have a camera as well! if they can put video-cameras on phones, is there any reason why iPod couldn't have one?

if we assume that the "no-touch" UI is possible, then nothing I have listed is impossible. iPod with those specs would be YEARS ahead of any other device on the market! It would absolutely embarrass all the other devices.
 
MegaSignal said:
If Apple dumped FireWire IEEE1394 for the sake of slimness, it is highly doubtful that they'd re-clutter and fatten it up with Bluetooth (which, after trying for many years (with other devices) I have now considered to be worthless crap).
Click to expand...

Huh? Bluetooth absolutely kicks ass! I have used it extensively with my laptop and my cell-phone, when making data-calls through the phone. No need to have any wires, no need to even take out the phone. Just turn on Bluetooth on the computer and dial. And it just works. Granted, few years ago Bluetooth had all kinds of problems. But it works very very well these days.

Now, it might be that operators in USA cripple Bluetooth (I have heard that they do that). Luckily in Finland they don't do that, and things work very well indeed.
 
spaz said:
I'm not sure if it's just a bunch of "computer guys" around here, but in the gaming world Xbox 360 has a fair amount of cultural cachet.
Click to expand...

IIRC, PS2 is still outselling the Xbox360. And when we compare install-base, Sony's lead over MS is HUGE. And since PS2 is still outselling their competitor, that lead is increasing.
 
In Japan and Korea iRiver currently has one or two mp3/pmp wi-max players which is doing decent for what it is. But the wi-Max is only for multiplayer games it offers, plus all those odd things the have available there wi-max can use.
 
Evangelion said:
Hell, the iPod could have a camera as well! if they can put video-cameras on phones, is there any reason why iPod couldn't have one?
Click to expand...

There is a few pmp/mp3 player devices out currently with a camera. There is the Archos Gmini 402CC. The camera quality is a little better than what you get on a normal 1megapixel camera phone and video isn't bad either. Then their is those host of video players that support web/backup camera type cameras via av-ports. So a camera ipod is possible or an accessory to add a camera/video support but it will be kind of a useless feature.
 
Hunabku said:
If this ipod killer was coming out of MS central (software dev, etc) i wouldn't be concerned. However the team that is working on it (xbox) actually are decently creative.
Click to expand...

Still they need to start actually making money one of these days. Subsidizing new versions for ppls itms libraries it would cost them roughly $1B... They can't sell their player for a premium (if they could they wouldn't need to subsidize song, right?) so the margins are likely to be thin, as are the margins on online music store business (except for record labels). This seems yet another venture without profits in the foreseeable future for xbox division.

Besides, I fail to see what's creative about xbox or xbox360 :confused:
 
I think that some of us may be overestimating the coolness of the player as the factor. While that worked in the early days, it may not now.

Apple has in their favor the fact that many people now have ripped CDs and bought protected music in Apple formats. If that base is solid enough, Urge won't fly, and hence there won't be a large installed base of protected WMA files in search of a player. If a significant number of Vista users are just starting their collection, or building on existing MP3s, there is a very strong chance that they will do the easiest thing and buy protected WMA files from Urge. This could spell disaster for Apple, particularly if Microsoft is willing to replace any protected AAC files in people's collections free of charge.

Finally, while in the early days of online music sales, it was the players and not the music downloads that drove the market, we are inevitably going to find that the players become the razor and the downloadable music the blades. Microsoft will probably price their player based on that model.
 
I think Apple has most to fear from M$ in the price battle, an iPod copy that costs significantly less would probably catch on pretty fast, of course, the popularity of the iPod brand is still larger than XBox.
Although I doubt that the design will be quite as dull as that picture
I'm thinking it will be more organic, like the XBox 360, with some curved shapes maybe.
 
Apple should take this as a big threat, apple has Ipod/itunes/ITMS, microsoft has argo/windows media player 11/xbox/xbox live/windows media centre and the lemmings that fall for that entire thing! The ipod ecosystem has worked well for apple, but they need to expand it, bring out a media centre version of the mac, break the ITMS away from a single PC and have it accessible from anywhere (wireless not necisarily implied) and try to get PC manufacturers to install itunes on their PC like they did with HP.
 
bloodycape said:
So a camera ipod is possible or an accessory to add a camera/video support but it will be kind of a useless feature.
Click to expand...

Not if you tie the iPod to iChat. "Videoconferencing, on the go".
 
netdog said:
Apple has in their favor the fact that many people now have ripped CDs and bought protected music in Apple formats.
Click to expand...

You just demonstrated the risk of closed formats and DRM. Suppose a superior product does become available. That superior product would have hard time competing, since iPod-users are tied to FairPlay (if they have used iTunes that is).

That said: there has been rumors that Microsoft would make the songs the user has bought from iTunes available to "switchers" for free, eliminating the FairPlay-lock in (by replacing it with another lock-in).
 
Evangelion said:
You just demonstrated the risk of closed formats and DRM. Suppose a superior product does become available. That superior product would have hard time competing, since iPod-users are tied to FairPlay (if they have used iTunes that is).

That said: there has been rumors that Microsoft would make the songs the user has bought from iTunes available to "switchers" for free, eliminating the FairPlay-lock in (by replacing it with another lock-in).
Click to expand...

Yes, I mentioned the switch for free rumours in my post.

As for using this as a critique of DRM, Apple and Microsoft will use DRM. The old rent-a-tune subscription model applied to WMAs will, no doubt, not be the only model offered by Microsoft. As for whether DRM is a good idea or not, while I hate it, the fact is that consumers are buying huge numbers of DRM-protected files, and our debates about the merits of DRM are just whistling in the wind.
 
Evangelion said:
If you do circlular motion (like in current iPod) the device would scroll, adjust volume, and do the other things you can do on the current iPod. If you move your finger straigh up, it would be equivaltnof clicking "menu". Straight down would be play/pause and so forth.
Click to expand...

Yup - this would be a good way of implementing things - much like the Newton's guesture-based interface where you draw an up line to capitalize words, down to set them to lower case, scribble to delete something, etc.

The Newton interface still rocks today and it would be great to see some elements of it re-appear in the next generation iPods...

RodC
--
www.expodition.com - for iPod users who love to travel
 
this sounds so familiar...

hyperpasta said:
Steve Jobs knew about this in January... this says a lot about his vision. I'm confident that he is already well-prepared for this and has something up his sleeve to counter it.

There will NOT be a sudden exodus to Argo from iPod. If it ever happens, it will be gradual and easy to fix.
Click to expand...


Sounds a bit like the CEO of Sony when the Xbox was released...lets just hope microsoft doesn't do to this industry leader what it did to Sony
 
Don't know how true this is, but if correct demonstrates MS determination to take losses to dominate the market. From Engadget,

But it gets better. To attract current iPod users Microsoft is going to let you download for free any songs you've already bought from the iTunes Music Store. They'll actually scan iTunes for purchased tracks and then automatically add those to your account. Microsoft will still have to pay the rights-holders for the songs, but they believe it'll be worth it to acquire converts to their new player.

http://www.engadget.com/page/4/
 
Evangelion said:
I'm not. What would I like to see from Apple? What would my ideal iPod be like? Let's explore the possibilities.

Bluetooth-headphones. This would kick ass. No more wires that get tangled up. And it CAN be done!

Large touch-screen. No separate controls, the controls would be right in the display (like in the image that was linked before in this thread).

And before you say "but there would be fingerprints on the screen! And it wouldn't provide any tactile feedback!". Ah, but how about that "no-touch" controls that have been rumored? I have no idea that is it really possible, but what if? You could simply hover you finger 1cm from the screen and use the controls. No fingerprints. As to the tactile feedback.... Tactile feedback is used that you know where the controls are without actually looking at the screen. "No-touch" UI does not have this, because you aren't actually touching anything. So how do we make this work? Well, what if you could just put your finger close to the screen ANYWHERE on the screen. If you do circlular motion (like in current iPod) the device would scroll, adjust volume, and do the other things you can do on the current iPod. If you move your finger straigh up, it would be equivaltnof clicking "menu". Straight down would be play/pause and so forth.

As to WLAN and the like.... What if the new iPod could be tied to iChat? You could VOIP to/from the iPod. just turn on the wireless, and browse to the "buddy list" menu on your iPod, and you are all set. Hell, the iPod could have a camera as well! if they can put video-cameras on phones, is there any reason why iPod couldn't have one?

if we assume that the "no-touch" UI is possible, then nothing I have listed is impossible. iPod with those specs would be YEARS ahead of any other device on the market! It would absolutely embarrass all the other devices.
Click to expand...

I decided to quote myself here. I would like Apple to REALLY do something revolutionary for a change. iPod was nice. A big improvement over what was available at the time, sure, but not revolutionary. And while iPod has been improved over the years, the steps have been quite small. Larger storage, smaller size, less weight, color-screen, refinements... How about REALLY rocking our world for a change? Enough with these evolutionary steps, take a revolutionary step instead! You have the audience, you have the market, you have the brand. You CAN do it! If there's anyone who can do it, it's you.

Remember the "Think Different"? I would like Apple to do so. Instead of living the status quo, and making small improvements, make something different. Make iPod revolutionary. The groundwork has already been done. You just need to take that one step.
 
Evangelion said:
I decided to quote myself here. I would like Apple to REALLY do something revolutionary for a change. iPod was nice. A big improvement over what was available at the time, sure, but not revolutionary. And while iPod has been improved over the years, the steps have been quite small. Larger storage, smaller size, less weight, color-screen, refinements... How about REALLY rocking our world for a change? Enough with these evolutionary steps, take a revolutionary step instead! You have the audience, you have the market, you have the brand. You CAN do it! If there's anyone who can do it, it's you.

Make iPod revolutionary. The groundwork has already been done. You just need to take that one step.
Click to expand...

Hear hear!
 
i gave up wanting more from an ipod when discovered you cant take pictures from an ipod photo
 
I wouldn't worry...

bloodycape said:
I will agree with you there but however, if apple want to succeed in that area they need to offer more than 2hours(at best) of video playback. Look at Creative users are getting close to 5-6 hours out video playback while still have close to 20hours of audio. And I am getting close to 9 hours out of my Cowon PMP with a 4in screen and clost to 18 out of audio. Additionally apple needs to support to add more video support like divx which is popular enough to have some dvd players to support it and even have players just desinged to play that formart. Just my 2cents
Click to expand...

Here are some reasons why the new ipod video will have better battery life...

1. HELLO, the current ones are old already, they are bound to have better batteries. Its been a year. a year ago that was the best apple could do. Its not the best anymore.

2. If this is a VIDEO IPOD... 2hrs-3hrs of battery life for videos, sure as hell wont cut it. the current ipod makes video as more of a cool feature as opposed to MAIN feature. music was most important.

3. Microsoft is prepared to lose money on their ipod killer just for the sake of market share. Apples next ipod can't just have a bigger screen. It will need more to compete. Apple will have to convince people to pay an extra few bucks for there product. With these extra things apple NEEDS to add to compete, you will need more battery life.
 
ChrisA said:
[The Microsoft music player could be a huge success if Microsoft wants it to be. MS could offer them at such a low price they they would sell fast. Of course MS would loose a pile of money on each unit but why would they care if the goal is to run the competition out of bussenis. A $50 player with 10 GB of space would pretty much kill the iPod.
Click to expand...
I don't think MS's stockholders would stand for that.
 
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