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When we're done beating the Quad horse to death, can we compare the Octo MP to the HP Z600 and Dell T5500? Because besides the graphics, the differences aren't so big.

No.

Because the Studio XPS Core i7 and to a lesser extent the Dell Precision T3500 are systems that are squarely in the

...... h u g e ........ g a p i n g ....... h o l e ......

that Apple has between the Mini mac and the Maxi tower.

If you don't need or want octo core server-class systems, it really doesn't matter if the Dell and HP octo core are competitive with the Apple octo core.

If you want a quad core, the $1069 for the Dell 2.66 GHz quad core vs. $2748 for the Apple quad core is the only relevant comparison.

Show me an Apple quad core 2.66 GHz Nehalem around $1000, and let's talk. If it's $2748 - don't bother me.

Sorry, but I'm trying to keep this at least remotely connected with the Microsoft "Laptop Hunter" ad so that the mods don't close this thread too.

Remember, in the "Desktop Hunters" ad, Julio had a budget of $1500 for a quad Nehalem system.

If you can't come in under Julio's budget, don't bother.
 
No.

Because the Studio XPS Core i7 and to a lesser extent the Dell Precision T3500 are systems that are squarely in the

...... h u g e ........ g a p i n g ....... h o l e ......

that Apple has between the Mini mac and the Maxi tower.

If you don't need or want octo core server-class systems, it really doesn't matter if the Dell and HP octo core are competitive with the Apple octo core.

If you want a quad core, the $1069 for the Dell 2.66 GHz quad core vs. $2748 for the Apple quad core is the only relevant comparison.

Show me an Apple quad core 2.66 GHz Nehalem around $1000, and let's talk. If it's $2748 - don't bother me.

Sorry, but I'm trying to keep this at least remotely connected with the Microsoft "Laptop Hunter" ad so that the mods don't close this thread too.

Remember, in the "Desktop Hunters" ad, Julio had a budget of $1500 for a quad Nehalem system.

If you can't come in under Julio's budget, don't bother.

ur totally right, i feel apple's forte is its Operating system. i feel like pc hardware isjust as good if not better at comparable prices. wish i could rum os x on a pc(legally)
 
fastest powerbook was actually 1.67 ghz
Right, so the slowest MBA is "only" 2.3x faster than the fastest PB ever built. It's still kind of a stinker given that this is what they sold up until May of 2006. If you look at Geekbench scores, which max out around 3600 for the latest MBP 2.8, and scroll down the list until you get to the 1.6 GHz MBA at 1981, there's a huge drop in performance down to the fastest G4 at 851.
AidenShaw said:
Remember, in the "Desktop Hunters" ad, Julio had a budget of $1500 for a quad Nehalem system. If you can't come in under Julio's budget, don't bother
Can he gaffer-tape two Minis together? That's... what, 4 cores, 10 USB ports, 2 superdrives... also, 2 mice, 2 keyboards. And a lot of tape.
 
...there's a huge drop in performance down to the fastest G4 at 851.

Surely, you can't be suggesting the The Steve and The Phil were lying to us at the MacWorld keynotes with their demos of how much faster Apples were than PCs.

OMG, that would be like discovering that Apple and Microsoft used actors in their ads.
 
Fine. Their desktops were profitable because you say so. Don't forget though that Apple has been selling the iMac and Power Mac in tandem for years, and yet the iMac still survives and gets updated in 2009, but the mid-range PowerMac G5 died a slow death back in 2005.

You're saying that Apple killed the product line out of spite or something ? Because if it was profitable, that's the only explanation.

Anuba already took care of this, really.

However, I want to add some things to this.

Haven't you ever noticed that Apple has a knack for discontinuing cheaper models and raising the prices on the remaining models? And if they have nothing to discontinue, they tend to remove features.

Look at the Mac Pro as a perfect example. Back in January 2008 they made a big deal about how the 8 Core Mac Pro was the standard model for "only" $2,799. Now, a year later, the same model costs $3,299. Granted it has some updated features but nothing you don't find in computers costing more than $2,000 less and for some time before Apple offered them as standard features on their high end system.

Look at the Mac mini as well. The G4 Mac mini started at $499. The original Intel model started at $599 and offered a lowly Intel Core Solo. Granted the Core Solo was a bit faster than the G4 in the Mac mini, it had the Intel GMA 950 which was a HUGE step backwards compared to the Radeon 9200 in the G4 mini. So, again, Apple raising prices and/or sacrificing certain more useful features for less useful features.

Let's look at the MacBook. Prior to the MacBook, the iBook was priced at $999. Sure it had a slower processor, but the Radeon 9550 that was in the $999 MacBook was significantly faster than the Intel GMA 950 in the newly priced increased $1099 MacBook at that time. Now look at the current MacBook. The "top" system is up to $1,599 compared to the previous $1,499. Reasons? Backlit keyboard and..... um... what? The $1,599 MacBook is well behind other similarly priced PCs in both performance and features. So how can they justify the $100 price increase?

Again, let's look at the MacBook. The iBook was $999 and $1,299. With the MacBook it went up to $1099, $1,299, and $1,499. The base model rose by $100 and, while having a faster processor, was downgraded to a snail of a GPU. What did the newly released $300 extra model get you? At first it got you a little more speed and storage, but as time went on all you got was a different colored case.

Now let's look at the iMac. Up until recently, the iMac had dedicated graphics across the board. Granted the 9400M is more powerful at the low end than the Radeon HD 2400, that is certainly not the case compared to the 2600 used in the next model up. Sure you get a larger 24" screen now, but you take good 50% drop in GPU performance. What's the point in having a $1,500 "desktop" PC with a 24" screen if it can't perform? The only way to get dedicated graphics in an iMac is to go up to $1,799. And then you're getting something thats considered mid-range. One could ask why even bother spending $1,499 on a "desktop" computer thats an all-in-one and doesn't perform as well as notebooks in the same price range, especially when you can build a significantly more powerful PC with a better screen (and one thats 16x9 rather than 16x10!) for several hundred less.. but thats another argument for another day.

All of these are perfect examples of Apple cutting features to increase profit margin, lowing the features at the same or similar price point to upsell the more expensive model, or discontinuing the cheaper model in favor of the more expensive model that doesn't offer as much of an upgrade as the increased price would imply.

About two years ago, before they were bought out, eMachines sold about the same number of computers as Apple. eMachines had a market caps of about $700 million, while Apple at that time was worth about 100 times as much. Why? Because eMachines made about one dollar profit per machine sold in a good year; in a bad year, they lost one dollar per machine sold. Where are they now? Sold to the highest bidder.

This is a perfect example of Apple's price gouging. Oh and eMachines was making more than $1 per system :rolleyes:

Gateway specifically bought eMachines because eMachines notebooks were killing the sales of Gateway's systems. Back in 2003 eMachines was offering a system with a 15.4" widescreen, 512MB of RAM, ~60GB HDDs, DVD writers, 2GHz+ Athlon64s, along with 128MB Radeon 9700 mobile GPUs, all for around $1,400. All with the ability to use up to 2GB of RAM as long as you removed the keyboard to upgrade the one stick.

As soon as the purchase was completed, Gateway killed eMachines notebooks immediately. Those systems were so good that they were competing with new systems two years later. I know people who were looking for notebooks in 2005 and those 2 year old eMachines (still new, just left over stock) being sold on various sites like Tigerdirect made them think twice about getting then production models from other companies.
 
bought a PC - BAD TIMES!

so I bought a PC once. was given by work money to go and pick whatever I liked. unfortunately a mac was out of the question due to budget restraints.
So I picked a PC (compaq laptop) that was about $600 and had more than enough memory, screen, camera etc than I would need it for (internet, email, word, powerpoint, itunes)

When I opened the box and turned it on it took 30mins to boot up.
Then the computer ran SO SLOW it also took 30mins to try and install iTunes.
The stupid computer came with basic Windows Vista preloaded (had a sticker, built for Vista) and I found out that you could NOT downgrade it to XP (unless you paid a stupid fee to do so) and there weren't drivers for the computer on XP.
The computer that was 'built for Vista' had not enough ram to actually run vista. In the end I had to go out and pay MORE money that i didn't want to spend to buy ram to make the thing actually function.

I'm a MAC because I like my computer to just work!
 
I need to chime in again on this whole debate.

I think its funny that people actually buy into this whole "Pro" and "Consumer" thing that Apple has set up. People actually believe that MacBook Pro is a "Pro" machine.


for the average user the Macbook Pro is a 'pro' machine.

YOU are NOT the average user. you are an obsessed computer geek for whom nothing Apple does is going to be doing is good enough because it isn't what you would do. It's not the parts you would put in, the size you would make it, the price you would sell it.

for Joe Q Public, who is almost a total 180, the labels work. and since that is the market Apple likely wrote them for, it works.
 
for the average user the Macbook Pro is a 'pro' machine.

YOU are NOT the average user. you are an obsessed computer geek for whom nothing Apple does is going to be doing is good enough because it isn't what you would do. It's not the parts you would put in, the size you would make it, the price you would sell it.

for Joe Q Public, who is almost a total 180, the labels work. and since that is the market Apple likely wrote them for, it works.

Nah.. if it did work on them, Apple's US marketshare wouldn't have shrunk last quarter and it wouldn't be in the low single digits worldwide ;)
 
That Newsweek article is very good - I recommend that people read it to get an alternate opinion.

The ad campaign is very successful, and the uproar in the Apple community is only benefitting Microsoft. Keep it up, guys and gals!
As an Apple user as well as iPhone and hackntish, I personally get peeved that apple has shunned the pro market, cripples any machine under $2000 (portable), has replace one to one trainers(it used to be combined with pro care), with trainers cluesless about fcp, motion but can show you how to email, and focuses all their attention on a market about to reach their 2 year anniversary with numerous good looking/working smart phones in the wings,..... And think the articles "talk about tone deaf" sums it up nicely.
 
Alternate take on Microsoft ads...

We turned the tables in this weeks intro skit on flop ya mac out to show what buying a PC is really like... Enjoy :)
 
Thats good that you prefer OS X. It's your choice to like what you want. But don't try to say it's better than Windows. Because it's most certainly not. Functionality is the most important thing to consider when buying or using computers, and Windows combined with modern hardware is far more capable than OS X on modern hardware.

Oh, I can and will say that Mac OS X is better than Vista - in fact, speaking as somebody who owns both, I'm pissing myself laughing at the very thought of Vista giving me a better user experience. If I had to use that horrible excuse for an OS every day, I'd give up computers completely.

So you can get a PC that costs less and is more powerful? OK, fine, I get that... but I don't care! I'd rather have a very slow Mac running OS X than a PC twice as powerful running Vista.
 
Oh, I can and will say that Mac OS X is better than Vista - in fact, speaking as somebody who owns both, I'm pissing myself laughing at the very thought of Vista giving me a better user experience. If I had to use that horrible excuse for an OS every day, I'd give up computers completely.

So you can get a PC that costs less and is more powerful? OK, fine, I get that... but I don't care! I'd rather have a very slow Mac running OS X than a PC twice as powerful running Vista.

I own both as well ;) Vista on an HP similar to the ones in both of the commercials so far, and Leopard on a UniBody MacBook 2GHz.

The thought of Leopard even being able to compete with Vista in usability, capabilities, software choice, or even plain old video playback.. hah. Thats a good joke right there ;) Leopard isn't even half the OS Vista is. Don't try to come back with a comment about "bloat" either, since Leopard's memory requirements are every bit as "bad" as Vista's. I'd go so far to say that Vista runs better on 1GB of RAM than Leopard does. I know because I've run both on 1GB!

I also want to mention that I know one less Mac user as of tonight. My friend, who bought into the Mac hype, was complaining about how OS X is "annoying" to her and she likes Windows better. She saw me boot into XP on my Mac and before I could even blink she asked "how can you do that!?". So I showed her. I had an extra copy of XP so I let her have it. Her OS X partition is down to 20GB with the rest of her drive dedicated to XP. She said shes finally happy with her MacBook after having owned it for about two years.
 
The thought of Leopard even being able to compete with Vista in usability, capabilities, software choice, or even plain old video playback.. hah. Thats a good joke right there ;) Leopard isn't even half the OS Vista is. Don't try to come back with a comment about "bloat" either, since Leopard's memory requirements are every bit as "bad" as Vista's. I'd go so far to say that Vista runs better on 1GB of RAM than Leopard does. I know because I've run both on 1GB!

I also want to mention that I know one less Mac user as of tonight. My friend, who bought into the Mac hype, was complaining about how OS X is "annoying" to her and she likes Windows better. She saw me boot into XP on my Mac and before I could even blink she asked "how can you do that!?". So I showed her. I had an extra copy of XP so I let her have it. Her OS X partition is down to 20GB with the rest of her drive dedicated to XP. She said shes finally happy with her MacBook after having owned it for about two years.

Yes yes, I picked up a long time back that you run both.

You prefer Vista and I (along with most Mac users) don't. Fine. Have fun with it. Mac OS X appeals to a certain type of person (creatives etc) and others find it totally alien. It's all subjective.

But if you've made your choice, why spend your time on a Mac forum trying to convince Mac enthusiasts that their platform of choice isn't as good as yours? Seriously, don't bother, you're pissing into the wind.

I will gladly pay more for a Mac because I know I'll get value for money, and if Microsoft wants to make commercials that make the Mac seem even more cool and exclusive that's fine by me. It just means that in two years time I'll get a good price on eBay for my MBP.
 
geez. this is still going on ?
what i meant yesterday by talking about a failed campaign wasn´t referring to the spot. but to the pointlessness of continuing the ad in a viral form in this forum. and the even bigger pointlessness of people reacting to it. so my problem isn´t with the spot. never been. average joe buying his 500 bucks laptop won´t see a difference to a faster machine either way. unless he´s a pc gamer, who are the masses buying the fast gpu systems anyway. and yes. there are tons of people who just can´t switch their os. many are even troubled to get along with a new version of the system they are using, or even with the one currently running. but well. that doesn´t change a thing. i used both systems in the past. and from a professional standpoint as well as personal preference i won´t even look back. but why else would i be lurking in mac forums in the first place.
 
In the Website Feedback section, there are a number of links. So, say I had a complaint about one of their products, I would click on the link labelled "Product Feedback". I dunno, too subtle?

And If I had a complaint about a service provided in a retail Apple store?

Look it does not matter, it seems you and I have different views how complaints are handled or what a complaint is. Having worked in Government, i had it drilled into me that when we receive a complaint from the public we are to log it and action it within x time. There is a big difference between feedback and complaints. Lets say I had an issue with service provided in an Apple store, looking at the feedback page, I would have to log it under feedback for Apple.com and general comments (not one are in the feedback section has a sub category that is a complaint), which would drop into a huge bucket, when someone eventually gets around to reading it, they will have to make a call if they were to escalate it.

When a site has a dedicated complaints area, these are handled as a matter of urgency. Something that drops into a general feedback buckets may not be actioned in weeks or ever actioned.

Search for "complaint" or "complaints" on apple.com and check out the results.

The point I was trying to make is that Apple choose not to have a complaints section on their site. This maybe for perception reasons, they do after all have excellent customer service. I guess if someone is really upset they will call apple are and go from there. It would be nice if they provided e-mail addresses for retail stores.

We can agree that people can leave feedback through the site. And I personally see a big difference between feedback and a complaint, you on the other hand may see them as being the same.
 
If Apple would be catering exclusively to professionals, nobody would be saying a word. But they're not. They're also targeting consumers, right down to college students ($999 MacBook, etc).

[car analogy mode]

Ferrari has a handful of extreme sports cars, and nothing else. That's fine. But imagine if Toyota had this great gaping hole in the middle of their lineup:

Yaris = Mac Mini
Corolla = iMac
Camry = ?
Avalon = ?
Highlander = ?
Sequoia = ?
Land Cruiser = Mac Pro

[/car analogy mode]

The standard retort is "Mac only caters to the high-end segment blah blah" but it's just not true. They have a bottom and a top, but no middle. Like a T-shirt that's available in XS, S and XXL.

Maybe because the mid-range desktop is dying ? Maybe, just maybe, computer sales are divided into low-end e-mail/office/chat systems and high-end professional/gaming systems ? Maybe there just isn't that much of a mid-range market left and the competition for it is fierce ?

Again, you guys can cry all you want about Apple not making a mid-range tower computer, it won't bring them back. Apple understands that a vocal minority isn't a profit center.

And If I had a complaint about a service provided in a retail Apple store?

It's been said. C.A.L.L. T.H.E.M. Are you so in need of hand holding that you can't do the basic steps on your own ? No company is going to hand hold you through the complaint process.
 
As a new Mac user, though lover of Apple products and functionality since long time now, I can say one thing, Windows are kinda childish OS cause of their incapability of creating a pretty stable and reliable OS.

After one week with my mac, I felt again what creativity means... and without being familiar with Leopard. I can imagine what follows next :)

The only company I take seriously on Windows computers is DELL cause they do a serious job on hardware setup and after sales assistance.

Cheers :>
 
Yes yes, I picked up a long time back that you run both.

You prefer Vista and I (along with most Mac users) don't. Fine. Have fun with it. Mac OS X appeals to a certain type of person (creatives etc) and others find it totally alien. It's all subjective.

But if you've made your choice, why spend your time on a Mac forum trying to convince Mac enthusiasts that their platform of choice isn't as good as yours? Seriously, don't bother, you're pissing into the wind.

I will gladly pay more for a Mac because I know I'll get value for money, and if Microsoft wants to make commercials that make the Mac seem even more cool and exclusive that's fine by me. It just means that in two years time I'll get a good price on eBay for my MBP.

Don't waste your time with Mosx, his personal opinion is fact, everyone else's are just opinions.
 
It's been said. C.A.L.L. T.H.E.M. Are you so in need of hand holding that you can't do the basic steps on your own ? No company is going to hand hold you through the complaint process.

Do people actually read the comments here before they reply ? seems not.

Without getting personal mate, I have already stated a number of times that I do not have an outstanding complaint. I did mention it back in my earlier posts that 6 months ago I did lodge a complaint and noticed that there was no dedicated complaint section on the site.

Now Dejo did reply to this this statement in a patronizing manner that I could not find the "contact us" on the apple site. So I decided to have a discussion with him about the differences between feedback / complaints.

So let me make is clear. I DO NOT have a complaint i wish to lodge. I was just observing that there is no actual complaint section on the website.
 
No.

Because the Studio XPS Core i7 and to a lesser extent the Dell Precision T3500 are systems that are squarely in the

...... h u g e ........ g a p i n g ....... h o l e ......

that Apple has between the Mini mac and the Maxi tower.

If you don't need or want octo core server-class systems, it really doesn't matter if the Dell and HP octo core are competitive with the Apple octo core.

If you want a quad core, the $1069 for the Dell 2.66 GHz quad core vs. $2748 for the Apple quad core is the only relevant comparison.

Show me an Apple quad core 2.66 GHz Nehalem around $1000, and let's talk. If it's $2748 - don't bother me.

Sorry, but I'm trying to keep this at least remotely connected with the Microsoft "Laptop Hunter" ad so that the mods don't close this thread too.

Remember, in the "Desktop Hunters" ad, Julio had a budget of $1500 for a quad Nehalem system.

If you can't come in under Julio's budget, don't bother.

I see your point, but as much as you and I both would love to see a $1000 i7 with the required Apple tax ($1300-$1500) I just don't see it happening.

And as for the Quad compared to the HP Z400 and Dell T3500, it's definitely still overpriced, but not as much compared to an i7 desktop.

In that case, when comparing entry level workstations to desktops with the equivalent processor, all entry level workstations are overpriced.

The thing that is absolutely without a doubt unacceptable with the MP though are the damn video cards. Where's the FX580/1800/3800?

Do you have industry sales figures to back up that conjecture?

I didn't think so.

I don't have to sales figures, nor do I have the time to research them. But could it be that he's partially correct, in that on a consumer level desktops aren't as popular as they once were, due to falling laptop prices (well, everyone but Apple's), but on an enterprise level they very much are still popular?
 
Maybe because the mid-range desktop is dying ? Maybe, just maybe, computer sales are divided into low-end e-mail/office/chat systems and high-end professional/gaming systems ? Maybe there just isn't that much of a mid-range market left and the competition for it is fierce ?
But these machines are still selling like hotcakes. Dell and HP still have a billion different desktop models, from microtower to behemoth, just like they always did. Anything that sells millions every year is pretty far from dying. The fact that Steve Jobs insists they're "dying" to cover for his sorry excuse for a product lineup doesn't make it so. They killed their own midrange by offering the worst bang-for-buck ratio ever (low-end G5), yes, but using the form factor as a scapegoat is just cowardly. Laptops outpacing desktops in growth is a worthless measure of desktop sales.

Again, you guys can cry all you want about Apple not making a mid-range tower computer, it won't bring them back.
It's not our loss (and personally I would buy the Mac Pro even if there was an 'xMac', due to my requirements). People who buy XPS, Dimension and Studio desktops by the truckload are happy puppies, and Michael Dell is undoubtedly laughing all the way to the bank. The biggest losers, apart from Apple themselves, are the users of the existing Mac models. Why? Because when Apple closes the door an entire market segment with great potential for market share expansion, their market share remains much smaller, especially outside the US, than it could have been. A smaller user base means fewer 3rd party accessories and peripherals, fewer software titles, fewer people to split the cost of Apple's OS and software development, etc. If the Mac market share was, say, 25%, do you really think that Adobe would've shrugged and gone "meh, screw the Maccies for this update cycle, they can have 64-bit in CS5, and don't bother with Adobe Audition for Mac at all", or that Logitech would only supply Mac drivers for 1/3 of their keyboards, mice, speakers etc, or that Google would've postponed their Mac version of Chrome while concentrating on the Windows version?

It's not like Apple are these obscure underdogs anymore, you know. They're the Microsoft of the portable media player market, with an insane market share. They got there in no time. They rule music downloads. They stepped into an unusually oversaturated market -- cellphones -- 10-15 years after all the big players, and they still managed to pull off a massive success with the iPhone. The market is theirs to conquer if they do everything right, which they are obviously capable of in some areas.

Now compare that to the Macs. After TWENTY FIVE YEARS, relentless advertising, Switch campaigns, Get a Mac campaigns, an otherworldly amount of product placement in movies and TV shows, celebrity endorsement galore, the iPod halo effect, the iPhone halo effect, the Mac Mini (originally marketed as an irresistible BYODKM switcher magnet), industrial design to kill for, the Intel switch (and subsequent introduction of BootCamp), MobileMe/Safari/iTunes/QuickTime for Windows, and just about every other trick in the book, PLUS the fact that the competition is allegedly complete and utter crap, PLUS the fact that the competition's current offering "Vista" has been a massive failure both marketing and sales wise (a golden window of opportunity that's soon to be closed by Windows 7)... And yet the Mac is only at 10% in the US and single digits internationally! How can anyone in their right mind conclude from this relative mega-failure that the current product lineup is ideal?

Apple understands that a vocal minority isn't a profit center.
You think this is about half a dozen clowns on MacRumors? The hole in Apple's product range has been quite the celebrity for many years. Macworld upgraded its status to "mythical" a couple of years ago:

Macworld: "The mythical midrange Mac minitower"
"...wishing for several years now that Apple would fill the gaping hole in its desktop product lineup..." "...the iMac doesn’t really count..."
 
It comes down to what the supply and demand really is, and when/if Apple will listen. Two things we may never know.

For me, I'm really interested in the EFI-X emulator. Having built a ton of computers, it would be nothing for me to put together my own xMac.
 
Ok lets throw this one up in the air and see who can hit it, if you are not a creative professional why do you need a Mac? You can surf the web and check email on just about anything these days. Photoshop will run on either platform and there seems to be a Windows equivalent for just about every Mac program out today.

So without rambling on, there is only one thing you cant do on a Windows box and that is FCP. I really dont understand this long standing feud between Mac and Windows owners since both boxes do the same thing.

No I am not trolling I have spent tons of my hard earn money on both platforms and have no problems at all using both.

Actually, not entirely true. As a mac IT firm, certified apple repair center whet apple pays us to fix theirachine plus helpmapple, we go much deeper using multimeters, and service IT firms, most clients are mac but many have kerii mail more have exchange servers and 90% are entertainment clients that have PC render blades or pcs, that said there is prosumer software that manybswear work better on of such as steinberg nuendo or cubase. Audio much larger than most think. Why msft or vndor can't come up with a similar ilfebpackage and fcp program is beyond me. Logic used to be emagic pc and mac. I love macs but get them 30%+ off otherwise to pricey and under powered. Good example no i7 machine which is cheap to make yet nada from apple and $2000 entry price tag if you need graphics and FireWire. This is apple ways of conning pro user into spending even though we were the ones that kept them afloat ore iPhone years. They could care less about us. It's all iPhone iPhone iPhone. Heck even one to one trainers are ckuelwss about pro apps but teach crying moms with babys how to send emails. Sad. Not that they do t deserve trainging but there are no pro trained and pro are one to One used to me One program. Again apple making a buck whet trainging goes to pot.
 
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