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My only real point in mentioning the fanbois is that there's always going to be a percentage of people in any group who are going to be arrogant, obnoxious boors ("AOB's"), and AOB's can often have their advoacy backfire.

And statistically, since there's many more Windows OS users, there's going to be vastly more Windows-AOB's (than Mac-AOB's), which means more opportunities for Windows-AOB-advocacy to incur an embarassing misstep.


-hh

That is interesting. My point is that for Apple fanboys, they are very aware of the superiority of their machines and their choice, and the satisfaction of being among the chosen few. And spending time looking upwards - and they see: well, you know;-)

The AOB's among the windows users (and there has to be a lot), have so many more choices than to just look down and maybe spot Apple somewhere.
I simply don't think windows users care to defend Microsoft as hard as Apple users do, PC's don't mean that much as long as they do the job.
 
I'm a PC user, and I prefer Windows to Mac OS. Just personal preference, nothing more.

I've always hated when I run into Mac snobs who talk down to me as some "uneducated" person because I won't jump ship.

Fair enough.

Unfortunately, it is far more likely to run into an "uneducated" than a reasonably informed. Along these very lines, I had an interesting discussion with my Nephew in 2007 at his sister's wedding, where he expressed distain for Macs, because as a Comcast ISP installer, their various internet configuration settings could only be done at the Terminal's Command line.

After I fell out of my chair in shock, I pulled up the System's control panel for Network settings and ran though a bunch of the Ethernet options, showing him that there was an alternative to the Command Line. His revised statement: "Our Employee training at Comcast sucks", and he was going to go tell his coworkers that they had been killing themselves by trying to do it the hard way.


These ads speak a partial truth. It is way less expensive to buy a PC over a Mac.

Agreed...partially ;) The problem is that even if we agree that a PC has a lower initial purchase price, that fact doesn't also guarentee us that it will end up having a lower total lifecycle cost too.

As such, while initial purchase price can't be ignored, its not the only cost factor to consider.


I also agree that if you want to do gaming, your options on a PC are way more open than on a Mac.

No argument there.

I think of a Mac as a specialty computer. Kind of why you buy an espresso machine as opposed to a normal coffeemaker. I don't see one buying a Mac just because they want to play video games, look at web sites, and type college papers. Granted you can do most of that on there, most users I've met don't buy Macs for that. I see them buy it to do music and multimedia. I see them buy it for personal preference and such. To me it's like deciding if you want to buy a normal power drill, or the industrial-strength one for special needs.

Fair enough. Setting aside the factor of respective strengths/weaknesses for applications, I would say that the main appeal that I've seen has been that OS X allows you to avoid the proverbial "Windows headaches".

We can debate the magnitude and significance of these headaches, but that's not really the point: the point is that no matter how insignificant they may be, there's always going to be some percentage of consumers who are simply fed up and thus, are going to jump ship.

My brother and his new iMac are probably a good example. The last Apple he owned was a //e ... circa 1984? So after 20+ years in the DOS/Windows camp, he's left. His son-in-law works in IT and had spent several nights at the house, trying to disinfect, update and protect his XP Machine....but in the end, he didn't want to lose any more photos of his first grandchild, so he jumped OS's and now has peace of mind.

To whatever degree you want to call this an "intangible" ... and I can agree that it is (since that's not the point) ... the point is that this consumer factor isn't something that neatly shows up on a simple price comparison, because it is the basis for product differentiation - - no so much as it is "For Apple" as much as it it is a "Not Microsoft"...at least initially.


Lord knows when any friend of mine buys a new computer, they're always asking why MS Word isn't on it.

Probably that's a product of the corporate 'Enterprise' environment. Historically, that was also where a lot of pirated software for home PCs also came from...which was also a factor in the growth of popularity for Windows.

EDIT: and FWIW, I can also recall hearing about office PCs that had their math co-processors stolen, RAM that had walked, hard drive upgrades, etc, etc. Depending on where you were, it wasn't always limited to just software.

-hh
 
I simply don't think windows users care to defend Microsoft as hard as Apple users do

All the rabid pro MS comments found online seem to show otherwise.

Online, you'll find people being obnoxiously extreme pro AND anti just about any position you can think of.
 
All the rabid pro MS comments found online seem to show otherwise.

Online, you'll find people being obnoxiously extreme pro AND anti just about any position you can think of.

I dunno...

There is a documentary coming out about Apple "fanboys."


I don't think the stereotype is too far exaggerated (against the more rabid apple fans compared to PC users).
 
There is a documentary coming out about Apple "fanboys."

So? That doesn't mean that there aren't fanboys just as rabid on the other side. Covering the apple side probably just makes for a more interesting movie.

Just look at this thread, many of the most rabid posts are from a guy absolutely convinced that no $10000 home theatre system is complete without a $150 soundblaster card.
 
So? That doesn't mean that there aren't fanboys just as rabid on the other side. Covering the apple side probably just makes for a more interesting movie.

Just look at this thread, many of the most rabid posts are from a guy absolutely convinced that no $10000 home theatre system is complete without a $150 soundblaster card.

lulz..touche.
 
Just look at this thread, many of the most rabid posts are from a guy absolutely convinced that no $10000 home theatre system is complete without a $150 soundblaster card.

That guy [TomPetty]ain't comin' round here no more.[/TomPetty]
 
Features that matter (to me and thousands of others)

Can you get a Macbook or Macbook Pro anywhere with Blu-ray, off-the-shelf or not? Didn't think so.
...
Like I said in the other laptop hunter thread, the Vaio FW offers performance and value in a nice package that Apple can't touch.
...

Can you run OSX and develop iPhone apps in XCode with a Sony laptop? I'm pretty sure the answer is, "No". On the other hand I also have XP installed on my MacBook Pro using Parallels so I can run Windows software including games if I choose to do so. There isn't a price differential that makes a Sony useful to me except as a rather expensive entertainment machine.

In any case Blu-ray as a delivery format seems unlikely to ever replace DVD just as CD appears to be the last "universal" audio format for physical delivery. Blu-ray with all its emphasis on DRM crap is just not compelling enough for me to care, especially on my laptop.
 
Wow watching the trailer the fanaticism reminded me of the days of Trekkies and their conventions. It's a computer people, not a religion.

Yeah, there are a lot fewer Mac users, but I think a higher percentage of them are actually people like that -- just completely unwilling to admit that Macs have any flaws whatsoever, and Steve Jobs is Christ who can do no wrong. That's what makes them so much fun to pick on ;).
 
That is interesting. My point is that for Apple fanboys, they are very aware of the superiority of their machines and their choice, and the satisfaction of being among the chosen few. And spending time looking upwards - and they see: well, you know;-)

These types also exist in sports car clubs too. And out at the weekend AutoCross, it can be entertaining to watch another member who's test-driving their daughter's Neon blow away the mediocre laptime that the "Gold-Chainer" set in his (very expensive) 911 turbo.

The AOB's among the windows users (and there has to be a lot), have so many more choices than to just look down and maybe spot Apple somewhere.

The automotive analogy would be a 'Riced' car, complete with a fart can and racing stickers, because as we all know, a loud exhaust note and a flashy emblems (or paint color) actually does make a car go faster/handle better/etc.

I simply don't think windows users care to defend Microsoft as hard as Apple users do, PC's don't mean that much as long as they do the job.

The rational ones recognize that both are just tools to get a job done. However, what is intriguing are the Win-AOB's that take incredibly strong offense at even the tiniest 'peep' of Mac, since this sort of behavior indicates that for all of the bravado, they're actually quite insecure, despite MS having a ~90% dominance.


-hh
 
Just look at this thread, many of the most rabid posts are from a guy absolutely convinced that no $10000 home theatre system is complete without a $150 soundblaster card.

Not to be pedantic but the guy was claiming a PC with Windows Media Center (so 300-400$), that 150$ Sound Blaster card and a set of 300$ Logitech Z5500 were a 10,000$ home theater system.
 
Well, if they're not scared, how do you explain them targeting Apple directly with these Laptop Hunter ads and the 'Apple Tax' report?

Scared implies fear. I would simply say they are countering a growing market. They know Vista is a failure and they're trying to stem the tide a bit until Windows7 comes out. But fear implies they think they're in danger of losing the market or something. You don't lose 90% overnight.
 
Here's what I found interesting. I priced out a comparable 13" Dell Insperion to the white 13" MacBook. Yes it came up cheaper, but if not for the $168 instant savings, it wouldn't. Go do it yourself. Oh yeah, the initial price of the Dell was somewhere in the 500 dollar range, but you have to add the 802.11n and Bluetooth. Anyone who says that Dells extended waranty is cheaper than Apples is on crack, it's $190 for the warranty, but you have to pay 50 for every phone call you make to support. If you want to add on phone support (which you get 3 years with your Apple Care account) it's another 140 dollars. That's a grand total of 330 for Dell and 259 for Apple. Also, the Dell has no firewire support and no internal sound card. Who was complaining that the Apple only comes in white? Guess what, the Dell only comes in Blue.
 
Here's what I found interesting. I priced out a comparable 13" Dell Insperion to the white 13" MacBook. Yes it came up cheaper, but if not for the $168 instant savings, it wouldn't. Go do it yourself. Oh yeah, the initial price of the Dell was somewhere in the 500 dollar range, but you have to add the 802.11n and Bluetooth. Anyone who says that Dells extended waranty is cheaper than Apples is on crack, it's $190 for the warranty, but you have to pay 50 for every phone call you make to support. If you want to add on phone support (which you get 3 years with your Apple Care account) it's another 140 dollars. That's a grand total of 330 for Dell and 259 for Apple. Also, the Dell has no firewire support and no internal sound card. Who was complaining that the Apple only comes in white? Guess what, the Dell only comes in Blue.

So much for choice - reminds me of how MS marketed the pricing of their 30G Zune against that of the 80G iPod, claiming that the Zune was better priced. Anything to exploit a recovering economy.
 
Here's what I found interesting. I priced out a comparable 13" Dell Insperion to the white 13" MacBook. Yes it came up cheaper, but if not for the $168 instant savings, it wouldn't. Go do it yourself. Oh yeah, the initial price of the Dell was somewhere in the 500 dollar range, but you have to add the 802.11n and Bluetooth. Anyone who says that Dells extended waranty is cheaper than Apples is on crack, it's $190 for the warranty, but you have to pay 50 for every phone call you make to support. If you want to add on phone support (which you get 3 years with your Apple Care account) it's another 140 dollars. That's a grand total of 330 for Dell and 259 for Apple. Also, the Dell has no firewire support and no internal sound card. Who was complaining that the Apple only comes in white? Guess what, the Dell only comes in Blue.

What's your point? You're comparing an outdated Apple product to an outdated Dell product. Also you appear to be looking at Dell's cheapest three year care package and comparing it to Apple's best one.

Comparing the old Macbook to the Dell XPS - which was it's competitor - gives a better view as does comparing the new Macbook to the XPS Studio. They're both cracking machines for users with different preferences.

Disingenuous comparison is disingenuous.
 
I simply don't think windows users care to defend Microsoft as hard as Apple users do, PC's don't mean that much as long as they do the job.

They aren't attacked in quite the same way, either, i.e. "I hate those hypnotized iCult zombie morons at the coffeehouse acting all smug and superior with their their expensive Fisher-Price computers"... that sort of drivel.
 
However, what is intriguing are the Win-AOB's that take incredibly strong offense at even the tiniest 'peep' of Mac, since this sort of behavior indicates that for all of the bravado, they're actually quite insecure, despite MS having a ~90% dominance.

This deep-rooted insecurity almost borders on the Freudian... I wonder if the words 'micro' and 'soft' have anything to do with that :D
 
Apple is really targeting the consumer who isn't particularly satisified with the Windows OS, to encourage them to consider trying Apple as something that is "better" (which is then also worth paying more for).

But what is "better"?

See, this is where I have to take issue with you. Yes, from purely Apple's "business bottom-line" standpoint, you're correct. However, the problem is that fundamentally this is one part of a much broader argument. Where you have the discord amongst users' opinions on this has largely to do with the fact that Apple's bottom line dovetails very nicely with the proposition that Microsoft is this "evil empire hegemony" which has to be fought and given competition. It can be very, very hard for some people to understand this and see past the purely financial aspect for Apple.

Fact of the matter is, until very recently, many if not most Windows users out there couldn't even conceive of the notion of an OS product not made by Microsoft, let alone whether one would be a viable choice. We've been fighting a war on a very large front, both those in the Mac OS/Mac OS X front and those in the F/OSS (i.e. Linux) front. Those engaged have been fighting for the "hearts and minds" because we want them to be aware that they have a choice, and that the choice includes a range of options which may well prove to be better than their present platform-of-use.

Where this gets difficult to analyze is how to characterize the motives: is it simply one which is asperational, like a Mercedes instead of a VW?

Or, as per the English adage, is it one of "The Grass is always greener on the other side" where it is clearly different and maybe actually better?

Or if we are more cynical, perhaps its simply a competitive "Keeping up with the Jonses" form of conspicuous consumption?
See, this is why I term it a "platform-of-use" and not a "platform-of-choice" because, as a practical matter, if you don't think there are any options, then the only "choice" you make is, effectively, whether or not to own a computer. While it's true, in an impirical sense, that one who buys a Windows-based system is "choosing" a Windows-based system, from their perspective, it's not a real "free" choice.

My only real point in mentioning the fanbois is that there's always going to be a percentage of people in any group who are going to be arrogant, obnoxious boors ("AOB's"), and AOB's can often have their advoacy backfire.

And statistically, since there's many more Windows OS users, there's going to be vastly more Windows-AOB's (than Mac-AOB's), which means more opportunities for Windows-AOB-advocacy to incur an embarassing misstep.
Absolutely. In any group (particularly of sufficient size) there's going to be offensive or otherwise objectionable members. It's simply a fact of life. I mean, go down to your local retailer (BestBuy, or Home Depot, or OfficeMax, or wherever) and you'll find there are a mix of types of people who work there. There's no getting away from it. Why should the group which corresponds to Mac-owning people be any different than anyone else?
 
Scared implies fear. I would simply say they are countering a growing market. They know Vista is a failure and they're trying to stem the tide a bit until Windows7 comes out. But fear implies they think they're in danger of losing the market or something. You don't lose 90% overnight.
Okay, I understand your argument. I don't agree with it but I understand it. I would say these ads do show signs of them fearing losing a significant portion of the market to Apple. I don't think they're gonna wait until they're near equal market share with Apple to start worrying, not that that is going to happen any time soon.
 
It does care about its image yes.

Its image is providing good looking, innovative machines, intuitive OS and easy to use software for people who know that the cheapest option isn't always the best option.

In short - its image is built on making machines that people enjoy using.

Its not a fashion house - there is substance behind the style.

Innovation is as much part of apple's image as aesthetics.

Look at the effects the ipod, iphone and imacs have had on the computing market.

I agree, but I am mainly knocking on the head of Apple's Pro market.

I love Apple's consumer lineup, the iMac is still my preferred choice if I were to not need my own workstation. The Macbook is the best looking laptop on the market IMHO.

But when it comes to paying top dollar for professional skid mark leaving hardware Apple leaves us wanting in everything sans the Mac Pro...... fact is the Mac Pro is the only option and not every pro market needs a $4500 server in tower form.

As a photo pro, I only need a machine with RAM and GFX power. As a gamer I only need the GFX power. As a video pro, I only need RAM and processor clock speed. I am glad that my machines look good, but waiting 2 hours for a 10 minute piece to render in HD is a nuisance when PC users with Adobe suites are doing it 45 minutes with comparable PCs that cost half as much.

And let's not mention their ability to author BluRay discs.
 
From the standpoint of a TV commercial I don't think it was that good. My wife barely noticed it when it came on (not good). I rewound it for her and she wasn't that impressed. It doesn't seem to grab your attention to make you look up and see what's going on. My wife uses PC's at work and we have an Apple and a Dell at home. I think the ad works better over the internet and plays better to the people who want to debate the two systems which is not the target audience.

Here's a commercial that I like which has nothing to do with computers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OC5_wJLxZU
 
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