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90% of the people I met in the Linux world over the past decade were elitist types that looked down on everyone that wasn't just like them. OS X has similar behaving users, but they're more like fanatics than elitists. Windows has both, but more represents 'average' people than either the Mac or Linux.

Heh, so true. Honestly I'd love to live in a world where Linux was on top. Philosophically and ideologically, it's a much nicer alternative than having Microsoft or Apple on top. But I keep trying out the latest versions of Ubuntu, or Fedora, or whatever else, and they all just aren't that great for the typical user on the desktop yet. They are quite competitive on the server side, no doubt, but I'm seeing a lot more people switch from either Windows or Linux to Apple these days.
 
Wow, I had no idea mentioning Linux here would touch off such a firestorm. I want to address a couple things here and then follow up with comments regarding what I was talking about and responded to earlier.

Aiden:

I'm going to start off by saying I haven't done any Linux server management myself, so as of this moment, on a personal basis, I have to plead ignorance. However, if my experience as sort of my own "desktop admin" is any guide, I'm sorry but I can't help but feeling something is not quite right in what your experiences have been. I will look into your comments and, if I can find anything insightful or useful for you, I will relay it to you, either in a public thread or via PM.


Ubuntu OOB Support:

Maybe this has already been bludgeoned to death up-thread, but I think certain things bear repeating, just to ensure they are absolutely crystal clear. GNU/Linux as an OS is an open-source platform. In it's purest form (and purity where the rubber meets the road does vary from distro to distro, depending on their priorities) a GNU/Linux system has nothing on it that's proprietary in nature. This is absolutely the case in Debian and Fedora, for instance, and slightly less so (but not that much less) in Ubuntu, which is based on Debian. This is a mix of philosophical, ethical, legal and practical issues, all of which collectively are beyond the scope of this thread or, arguably, most non-Linux message boards. Therefore, I will not entertain nor will I respond to comments based on the notion of mere personal (dis)agreement. I'm not discussing opinion here, not mine nor anyone elses'.

Some distros allow a relatively few non-free pieces of software into their system where there is absolutely no practical alternative and for those things which are basically mission-critical. That's their deciding factor. Anything else, no matter how critical, will not prevent the install from functioning, and so at that point anything else that's non-free will not be included, period. Mark Shuttleworth's goal, and that of Canonical, and therefore "and that of Ubuntu" is to encourage the common and open development of all software, be they applications, codecs, hardware drivers, or anything else. He and other like-minded members of the F/OSS movement hold the tactical and strategic view (this is generalizing, but reasonably accurate) that just packing their distros (or Linux in general) full of closed-source drivers decreases the incentive for the development of open-source versions, or of open standards-based solutions. What or how much or on what basis gets included is, as I mentioned above, strictly a decision of any given distro.

Looking at this not from a high-and-mighty position but from a more practical standpoint, I totally understand how it can be frustrating for someone who simply doesn't have a clue about such things to toss a distro on their system and become frustrated because all their video and audio files, etc., don't "just work" right out of the box. Absolutely, I "get it". I'll go you one step further and even say I can see how you might feel, could you step out of yourself and step back far enough to look at the whole situation, like you're some kind of pawn caught up in someone elses' war. Again, it's beyond the scope of MacRumors to really discuss and debate this, and as it is I've already hijacked this thread from the original discussion far enough and long enough, I want to conclude what I've started here and get us back on-topic as quickly as possible

All of that being said, the practical resolution to such issues is to go into, in the case of Ubuntu, the Synaptic Package Manager, do a search for "DVD" or "MP3", etc., find the packages marked "non-free" and/or "ugly" and then simply install them. In the case of your video card, Ubuntu will actually let you know there's an available non-free driver to fully support it, and "Would you like to install it anyway even though it's non-free?" Tell it go ahead, then eventually reboot, and you're golden.



Alright, now finally (since I'd rather make this one post and not several successive ones), let me as briefly as possible get to what I was interested in responding to in the first place.

Apple would benefit from incorporating F/OSS drivers (with appropriate GPL compliance, of course!) simply because they are open to inspection, require no fees paid or NDAs signed, and Apple doesn't have to worry that they'll be the only ones who can do anything with them. The whole concept behind F/OSS drivers is that you get massively peer-reviewed code, which should be desireable in any situation. I mean, if you can have a driver that 1000 people have looked at instead of, say, 50, the it's probably likely to be more stable, have better implimentation of features, and so on.
 
Thank you (and the subsequent posters) for supporting my argument that Linux is a mess of incompatible, randomly supported, mostly downloadable, free buckets of crap.

Yup, it's so incredibly difficult to research hardware and software compatibility with Linux when making a platform decision, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Keep up with broad generalizations though, I find them amusing. Red Hat and Novell are "randomly supported". Yup. ;)

You have "several servers" running OK - why that's great! I have hundreds running Windows Server - and that's great too.

Wow, I'm so impressed. We have Windows Servers too. So?
 
4.5% is significant! Don't you realize that 4.5% is almost 5%? Never mind that 95.5% of sales were DVDs - this doesn't count, it's nonsense, I tell you!
Well, 4,5% is more than the Mac's worldwide market share, so... I suppose you're right, Blu-Ray is utterly insignificant. ;)
 
I cannot speak for the very latest install, but there was no such functionality when I attempted to install a Ubuntu on either my PPC machine in the past or my PC. Most distributions (even Mandriva) do not offer ANY support for setting up non-free repositories. You have to generally search high and low for support information on where to find them.

I haven't checked with other distros in awhile, but they're clearly listed on at least Ubuntu's and OpenSuse's websites.

I did find a very nice site that gives the information for various distributions, though, but it took a lot of searching in years past. That in no way validates things for new users who will wonder why MP3 is a bad word on the Ubuntu forums. Sorry, but Ubuntu's "ideology" simply isn't my own.

I really don't mean to sound rude, but Ubuntu just works with MP3s. There's no issue. Either you've never used it and are slandering it with no reason, or you had some seriously weird issue.

You call it an ideological choice. I call it lame. Some of us don't want to hunt high and low for BASIC functionality like the ability to play MP3 files. Any operating system that has no such support out of the box is not ready for prime time. When a $3 MP3 player at Walmart can play them and a Linux distribution cannot, well how does that make Linux look? Sorry, but commercial music is NOT typically distributed/sold in OGG.

And by hunting high and low, you mean doubleclicking on it? Because that's all you have to do.

I don't CARE about THEIR ideology. I care about the ability to play my media libraries and MOST of the world uses MP3/MP4 and DVDs, not OGG and FLAC (there is no alternative to DVDs since they're studio based).

I agree. That's why for a desktop distro, Ubuntu is so strong. It just works with all my Quicktime files, MP3's, MP4's, MPEG, whatever.

How the heck would you know how long I've used Linux? I've been trying and using Linux distributions since 2000. I've gone through at LEAST 10 Linux installs and 5 distributions in that time. Back before I discovered OS X, I was still gung-ho to stay away from Microsoft because the way I saw it, they were at least partially responsible for the demise of the Amiga (gross mismanagement by Commodore was the rest). Their business practices are abhorrent, but I've since discovered Apple is no better at all. Both companies are extremely anti-competitive. So yes it would be very NICE if Linux were a good alternative to either one.

We made the assumption you haven't been using it that long based upon your remedial issues with it. Our mistake. To be honest, 10 installs is really not that much at all, in my opinion.

But the fact remains that even IF you have fully supported and functional hardware with Linux, you STILL have JACK when it comes to choices for commercial quality software. For example, I don't care how much you want to hype the Gimp, it is NO SUBSTITUTE WHAT-SO-EVER for Photoshop. The inability to get real-time previews for transforms alone KILLS it (sorry but grids are no substitute for seeing the actual image as you manipulate a transform). You can TRY to run WINE to get Photoshop to work in Linux, but the fact is it's glitchy at BEST and downright crashes at worst. I know because I've tried high and low to make Linux an effective environment to use instead of Windows. But it's not even effective if I throw out gaming. Linux is getting better, but it still has a long way to go before it's ready to compete with Windows on a user desktop level. And until the developers are ready to agree on STANDARDS for things like application installation, commercial software will continue to be a joke. At least you can get a decent browser these days (I'm referring to Firefox). Back in 2000, browser support was pretty pathetic in Linux. Do you need to run iTunes? Too bad. Older versions "kind of" worked in Wine, but it's VERY VERY slow (even on very fast hardware) and some features don't work at all.

If you're willing to eschew nearly all commercial software and only have basic word processing, e-mail and browser needs, then Linux might be for you. If you're a programmer or a hacker and are willing to jump through hoops to get everything working that's possible to get working, then Linux might be for you. If you want to do complex commercial work, forget about it. Linux is a joke in those areas and probably always will be since supporting such software or trying to attract such software goes against so many of the Linux community's "ideology".

Yup, commercial software is tough to come by on Linux, and WINE is not the solution, and is often the problem. Software developers need to port their apps to Linux, if Linux is to gain more ground on the desktop. Who knows if that'll ever happen.

The BEST operating system would be the one you never even notice. You should be able to sit down and get to work. It should be completely intuitive and easy to learn. Currently, OS X is by FAR the closest to that experience. The Mac has a well deserved reputation for being easy to learn and for "non-computer" people to use. The real question is WHY should any operating system be otherwise? Why should you have to sit and read a 500 page book on Linux for dummies to figure out what to do when it dumps you into a shell and X refuses to start because the updater didn't include the Nvidia source for the latest kernel update and therefore X won't start. Just to find out that is the root of the problem online when it's not obvious to you because you are not into the roots of operating systems could take HOURS. And you can FORGET about getting help from most Linux users on IRC chat rooms, etc. Their typical reply is "RTFM" even though most Linux 'manuals' (and I use that term VERY loosely) consist of "man" pages (if ANYTHING which is also very common) and they are pretty darn cryptic at times, often poorly written and force new Linux users to use the CLI right off the bat.

Again, have you tried Ubuntu? it's really not difficult to use at all, and rarely ever forces you to the CLI. Their support forums are excellent, as is their documentation on their website. Something tells me you spent 5 minutes with it, it didn't work immediately, so you gave up.

If you call 10 years of Linux experience "lacking in general" then you CLEARLY must have pretty darn high expectations for what 'experience' is in the Linux world. I mean for goodness sake you're one arrogant elitist. Don't feel bad. 90% of the people I met in the Linux world over the past decade were elitist types that looked down on everyone that wasn't just like them. OS X has similar behaving users, but they're more like fanatics than elitists. Windows has both, but more represents 'average' people than either the Mac or Linux.

I call 10 installs and 5 distributions lacking in experience, yes. I call someone who fails to check hardware compatibility lists lacking in experience, yes. If that makes me "elitist" because I follow guidelines for hardware and software, then I guess I'm elitist.

I also have a problem with blanket statements like you like to make, especially when it's clear many people do just fine with many different distributions of Linux.

Keep spreading the FUD though, keep trolling.
 
Compared to the ease of getting hardware support for Windows, yes. With a maze of kernel versions to navigate, it's a crap shoot.

There's nothing random about it. Check the supported hardware lists, then proceed.

I could understand your frustration if you're trying to work with Slack or Gentoo, but the major players? Come on.

I agree, there's not as much support for Linux as Windows. No doubt. But that's the hardware vendor's fault; not Linux.
 
Well, 4,5% is more than the Mac's worldwide market share, so... I suppose you're right, Blu-Ray is utterly insignificant. ;)

By the same token, MS (representing less market share than DVD purchases) is even less relevant.
 
There's nothing random about it. Check the supported hardware lists, then proceed.

I could understand your frustration if you're trying to work with Slack or Gentoo, but the major players? Come on.

I agree, there's not as much support for Linux as Windows. No doubt. But that's the hardware vendor's fault; not Linux.

We buy commodity servers by the pallet, based on features and price (latest ones coming ar dual socket Nehalems for EPT testing and evaluation.

We may not know the application/hardware mix when we order the servers. There have been times when we've had to put Linux in a VM because otherwise it couldn't use the hardware.

But, the new servers have slightly different NICs and RAID controllers - so problem. Can't use with the older kernel that runs with the application. Gotta find drivers...

You're acknowledging the issue at least - believe me that it's a headache. If you are one person, buying one desktop for a set of applications/hardware in your workflow - it's reasonable to cross reference the HCLs and application requirements. At the datacenter level - it simply does not scale.
 
We buy commodity servers by the pallet, based on features and price (latest ones coming ar dual socket Nehalems for EPT testing and evaluation.

We may not know the application/hardware mix when we order the servers. There have been times when we've had to put Linux in a VM because otherwise it couldn't use the hardware.

But, the new servers have slightly different NICs and RAID controllers - so problem. Can't use with the older kernel that runs with the application. Gotta find drivers...

You're acknowledging the issue at least - believe me that it's a headache. If you are one person, buying one desktop for a set of applications/hardware in your workflow - it's reasonable to cross reference the HCLs and application requirements. At the datacenter level - it simply does not scale.

Yeah, that's a pain in the ass then. I can't imagine dealing with it at that point if there are variances with hardware. We're not the biggest datacenter, but I know of larger ones in Chicago (where I used to be a consultant) that they were able to specify hundreds of servers at a time with specific hardware requirements. Do you guys use a tier 1 vendor (HP, Dell, IBM)? HP has always been pretty darn consistent for us, in terms of hardware spec, especially on the DL300 series and up. I don't know about the others. Only dealt with Dell on a much smaller scale (<100 servers).
 
HP has always been pretty darn consistent for us, in terms of hardware spec, especially on the DL300 series and up.

All DL360/DL38x/DL58x. Problems come when they change generations. The G5 added the BCM NICs with onboard accelerated iSCSI. It was compatible with the older drivers for IP - but since the hardware ID had been bumped they wouldn't load.

Most of the issues are with SAN and other third party cards, though.
 
All DL360/DL38x/DL58x. Problems come when they change generations. The G5 added the BCM NICs with onboard accelerated iSCSI. It was compatible with the older drivers for IP - but since the hardware ID had been bumped they wouldn't load.

Most of the issues are with SAN and other third party cards, though.

Yeah, they definitely change from G4 to G5 to etc.

What distro are you using?
 
Yeah right. That's why Mandriva comes with them because I need to live in another country.... It's more like certain distributions cave when it comes to anything that might POSSIBLY give them a problem in the legal department.

Mandriva comes with them, in the US, because Mandriva pays for patent licenses (for mp3 files and DVD CSS). Ubuntu does not. And the GUI installer for non-free components has been there since at least 6.04, which is 3 years old now. Continue showing your ignorance.

Your long, pissed tirade just showed one thing, the truth hurts.

We buy commodity servers by the pallet, based on features and price (latest ones coming ar dual socket Nehalems for EPT testing and evaluation.

Wait, are you saying Datacenters use a hoge poge of mixed Hardware as servers ? Reality check : poor small businesses do that. Datacenters with any kind of stability in mind purchase hardware that is compatible with the software they will be running.

The service contracts/maintenance/support costs should outweight any kind of actual hardware cost in the end anyway, who cares that your fiberchannel adapter was 300$ more if it is properly supported and saves you tons of money in downtime and manual recompilations ?

Yeah, that's a pain in the ass then. I can't imagine dealing with it at that point if there are variances with hardware. We're not the biggest datacenter, but I know of larger ones in Chicago (where I used to be a consultant) that they were able to specify hundreds of servers at a time with specific hardware requirements. Do you guys use a tier 1 vendor (HP, Dell, IBM)? HP has always been pretty darn consistent for us, in terms of hardware spec, especially on the DL300 series and up. I don't know about the others. Only dealt with Dell on a much smaller scale (<100 servers).

We buy from HP. Never had a single problem getting machines that passed all the checks for SLES hardware compatibility. The weirdest kernel issue we had was with our SAN tapes (old STK hardware) requiring a SLES kernel patch that worked perfectly with everything we are running on SLES (WebSphere, Oracle, SAP). We had Dells for about 9 months, none of them made it to any kind of mission critical work, only off-site file and print services.
 
We buy from HP. Never had a single problem getting machines that passed all the checks for SLES hardware compatibility. The weirdest kernel issue we had was with our SAN tapes (old STK hardware) requiring a SLES kernel patch that worked perfectly with everything we are running on SLES (WebSphere, Oracle, SAP). We had Dells for about 9 months, none of them made it to any kind of mission critical work, only off-site file and print services.

We buy all HP too and haven't had an issue, but I could see hardware variances between model generations being an issue with some hardware. Not completely unheard of.
 
Keep spreading the FUD though, keep trolling.


The fact you keep calling me a troll is just downright PATHETIC on your part. I'm simply telling my experience after ten years of playing with Linux. The fact you cannot accept opinions proves you are incredibly arrogant and the fact you are doing it with a Linux spiel on a Mac site in a thread about Microsoft and Apple makes one wonder WTF it has to do with ANYTHING here. You seem to have a crazy idea about what constitutes "experience" in the Linux world (10 years isn't enough, it seems) and heaven forbid someone suggest Linux isn't everything you believe it to be (or blame the distribution I use as terrible instead, despite the fact I've had more problems with other distributions). Hundreds of hours to learn the Linux environment compared to about 10 minutes to adjust to the Mac after using Windows is a big difference. You'll pretend it doesn't exist because you WANT to spend that time learning Linux. I did too at one point in my life but now I just want to get down to the things I want to do WITH the computer, not spending my time fighting the computer. Have fun with Linux. Do it somewhere else, kindly...a Linux forum would be most appropriate. I won't bother sharing anything else because you'll just insult me some more and act like the elitist Linux <insert text here> you so clearly are. If I had ANY doubts about whether Mac "fanatics" or Linux Elitists were more annoying, you've cleared that up for me quite well. Good day.
 
The fact you keep calling me a troll is just downright PATHETIC on your part.

It's downright pathetic that you continue to slander an OS you clearly have no idea how to use. I doubt you've even tried Ubuntu, because everything you've said about it is either non-existent or very easy to fix with a 5 second Google search.

I'm simply telling my experience after ten years of playing with Linux. The fact you cannot accept opinions proves you are incredibly arrogant and the fact you are doing it with a Linux spiel on a Mac site in a thread about Microsoft and Apple makes one wonder WTF it has to do with ANYTHING here. You seem to have a crazy idea about what constitutes "experience" in the Linux world (10 years isn't enough, it seems) and heaven forbid someone suggest Linux isn't everything you believe it to be (or blame the distribution I use as terrible instead, despite the fact I've had more problems with other distributions). Hundreds of hours to learn the Linux environment compared to about 10 minutes to adjust to the Mac after using Windows is a big difference. You'll pretend it doesn't exist because you WANT to spend that time learning Linux. I did too at one point in my life but now I just want to get down to the things I want to do WITH the computer, not spending my time fighting the computer. Have fun with Linux. Do it somewhere else, kindly...a Linux forum would be most appropriate. I won't bother sharing anything else because you'll just insult me some more and act like the elitist Linux <insert text here> you so clearly are. If I had ANY doubts about whether Mac "fanatics" or Linux Elitists were more annoying, you've cleared that up for me quite well. Good day.

You're not just telling your experience, you're slandering an OS that you have very little understanding of.

You're not stating your "opinions" as opinions, you state them as fact, and that makes it no better than the MS trolls here. That's what I have a problem with.

I use all 3 OSes, and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I'm not going to bash something just because it's not right for me.
 
Best argument against Linux that I've heard yet....

Come back when you have 10 years of experience working with Linux. Anyone cap pop a CD in and follow a few simple steps to install a distribution. Doesn't mean you actually know what you are doing.

A can't really think of anything worse to say about Linux. Wow, it seems OK after 10 years of training.
 
A can't really think of anything worse to say about Linux. Wow, it seems OK after 10 years of training.

That's the thing though. It doesn't take 10 years of training, especially for use as a desktop.

It may not run the software you need, so it doesn't fit your purpose. And that's fine.

But the stuff he was spouting off about simply hasn't been true for several years. Linux has changed, for the better.
 
Linux has changed, for the better.

At least, Ubuntu has made a big improvement in support and usability for popular desktop configs.

IMHO, though, it's still a bit of "lipstick on a pig" - it's just that Canonical picks the shade of lipstick, puts it on the pig, and fixes it when it smears. ;)

It makes it suitable for a hobbyist, rather than applealing to a professional geek.

The application support is still an issue. While there's often something "similar" to desktop apps and suites on Windows/OSX - the integration, quality and compatibility limit the appeal of Linux for most users.
 
If I had ANY doubts about whether Mac "fanatics" or Linux Elitists were more annoying, you've cleared that up for me quite well. Good day.

I quickly decided not too long ago that, out of the three main fanboy camps, the Linux fanboys tend to be the rudest and most unreasonable when you try to have a simple discussion with them. Just the other day, one says to me, "What the f*ck's up with you and your Apples, anyway? Get Linux and quit drinking the Steve Jobs Kool-Aid." I literally took a swing at the guy and then made him stand and watch while I rebooted my Mac and held down the Option key. And what did he see? Not two, not three, but FOUR partitions on my hard drive. Mac OS X, Fedora, Red Hat and Ubuntu. That's right. Three different Linux distros on my evil, closed-source, proprietary Mac. (Currently too lazy to update my sig, by the way.) :D

One thing that many Linux fanboys don't like to admit are the many similarities between Mac OS X and Linux, and how well the two actually compliment each other. Each have their own qualities. I like both, OK? I just don't get the whole "anarchist" mindset that many of them have toward closed-source OS's. It's hard to deny the fact that Mac OS X, a closed-source, vertically integrated OS, has better intrinsic support due to being owned and maintained by a company with tons of cash and is obtaining more and more cash with each passing day, and is in no danger of becoming abandonware. Which is eventually happens to all but a few of the most well-funded Linux distros.

Right now I'm learning Red Hat for a future job, and it doesn't help AT ALL that most of the Linux fanatics I have to deal with are total pricks. Several orders of magnitude more than the Windows gamerboys. :rolleyes:
 
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