Microsoft Says Windows PC Makers Seeing 'Continued Growth' in Premium Market Led by Apple

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

The problem isn't that people don't want USB-C. They do. USB-C IS THE FUTURE.

the problem is that right NOW, USB-A is the standard universal norm across billions of hardware devices from Laptops, desktops, portables, ultra portables, mobile devices, hard drives, memory sticks, smart cards, dongles. Etc, Etc, Etc.

by going USB-C ONLY, Apple has forced users to either stop using the TODAYS standards, or spend more money on cables and adapters.

What I think most people would have been happy with is 1 single USB-A port for those times where you just can't get away from USB-A. Apple could have done it.

Nevermind the fact that All 4 USB-C ports on the new MacBook pro are NOT full bandwith Thunderbolt. only the 2 on the left get the full PCI-E lanes. But because of limitations of the CPU, the two on the right are NOT FULL Thunderbolt. So, the argument over "BUT YOU GET 4 FULL 20GBS THUNDERBOLT 3 PORTS" IS not accurate at all. You get 2 full Thunderbolt ports, and 2 half thunderbolt ports.

So why not have replaced ONE of those USB-C ports with a USB-A port? USB-A can fully support the USB-3.0 standard for data speeds. The same as USB-C. this would have given the new MacBook Pro at least a smidge of compatibility with Today's standards, without the need of adapters or rebuying stuff.

However, for me, it's not JUST the 4xUSB-C that makes the new Mac Pro not worth the value (for me). it's the keyboard, the removed physical ESC key, the smaller battery life just for thinner laptop. the soldered in hard drive and RAM. When you take all of these, and then throw in a $500 price increase over the last model (In Canadian funds), the new MacBook Pro is a terrible buy.

You can use your USB-A devices right now. Since USB-C and USB-A are actually electrically and "protocol" compatible, All you need for you devices with removable cables is to go to Amazon and buy a PASSIVE (no dongles) $3 Cable with USB-A on one end and USB-C on the other. For your devices with either a built-in USB-A connector or a "captive" USB-A cable, Amazon has nice, PASSIVE USB-A to USB-C adapters that are about $2.50 apiece (3 for $7). Snap one of those on the end of the device/cable, throw a couple in you computer bag, and VOILA! Problem Solved!!!<br><br>
So you see, this whole "dongle" thing has gotten WAY overblown! Are you REALLY going to make something as insignificant as buying a few cheap cables or connector changers stop you from enjoying all the many engineering advances in the new MBP?

If so, you aren't really wanting a Mac, anyway.
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Lack of ports for one thing, issues with battery life for example.

So, a laptop that can have up to FIFTY TWO Ports has a "lack of ports"? The 2016 MBPs have more I/O than ANY other laptop.

So, a laptop that has an average battery life nearly DOUBLE that of a Dell XPS 15 has "issues with battery life"?
[doublepost=1486080762][/doublepost]

Switcher here, my reasons:

- the rMB USB-C / external display fiasco which STILL hasn't been adressed
- overpriced new MBPs (I've always been prepared to pay a premium, but the gap is now ridiculous)
- Win10 caught up / OS X stagnated

..moving away from OSX has also opened my eyes to other changes. iCloud photos > Google photos for example, works really nicely in Windows unlike the shoddy client in OSX.

Went for a Dell xps13 fully loaded i7 for the same cash as base model 13" MBP with TB3 ports that may or may not play nicely with peripherals and Apple may or may not fix if there's an issue (as per my rMB experience)

They have my phone/tablet business, but I'm much more open to change than I used to be.

Enjoy the abysmal battery life in that XPS, and of course Windows 10, Spyware Edition!
[doublepost=1486081049][/doublepost]

Exponentially worse yet, I am afraid.

"By reading the tea leaves" I think there is not going to be an iMac replacement going forward. Why?

Because Apple has abandoned the display market and to TC, the MacBook Pro in "closed-clamshell" mode, relying on a TB 3 connection to the LG 5K UltraFine display morphs into the new incarnation of the iMac.

A sad state of affairs.

You need to get new tea.

Apple was just waiting for new CPUs from Intel, which have just a coup,e of weeks ago been released to production.

We'll be seeing new desktop Macs in the Spring of this year.

Apple is pretty frustrated with Intel right now for holding them back.
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There are plenty of limitations to a laptop in general, but if want 2016 MBP limitations, I have an obvious one.

Ram - non-upgradable, and limited to 16GB Max.

There are plenty others.

16 GB is intel's fault, not Apple's. And why would you want to upgrade RAM in a laptop that already comes with Max RAM possible?

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Am in this spot myself, although with the pre 2013 Mac Pro and wanting a real desktop replacement (have a 2013 iMac as well). Am guessing the mini and its 2 core restriction CPU as well as the old Mac Pro are just waiting to be killed. We have 2 Mac's, iPad's and iPhones in the house. I like OS X much better than Windows (from the I trust Apple alot more than Microsoft as a company). But it really appears Apple chose to let the mac line become 2 versions of the Air (both performance inhibited by light/thin design Mcbook and Pro) and a laptop in a display case (iMac). Apple will make alot less money from me when its just iThings (which is where it appears headed rapidly) and they are alot less sticky as a consumer than a Mac is. Sad, very Sculley era short term financially sound decisions that will destroy the company long term.

I've reluctantly started speccing out PC's that would work (to replace the Pro), but my emotional side is still hoping I'm wrong here and they update the Mini and Pro with good (true 4 core Mini option etc.) components. But my rational side says the likelihood of that happening is very low & that they've been pushed in the garbage can with the Airports.

1. 2016 MBP: Trounces 2015 model MBP in CPU and GPU performance, due to complete removal of thermal throttling under ALL conditions, which plagued the 2015. DOUBLE the SSD speed of the 2015 MBP; Fastest SSD in the industry, due to custom Apple-designed SSD Controller. 80 Gbps of multifunctional I/O, TWICE that of ANY other Laptop. This I/O is capable of being broken out in a WIDE variety of ways, supporting up to FIFTY-TWO "legacy" USB 3.0, Gigabit Ethernet, HDMI 4 up to 4K, VGA, Audio, FW800, MiniDP, audio I/O, etc. Ports. Oh, and did I mention that the new MBP is the ONLY laptop that can drive up to FOUR external 4K displays, or up to TWO 5k external displays, PLUS the internal display; you know, for things that PROs do. That's why Apple went with the AMD GPUs. Nvidia's GPUs simply can't drive that many simultaneous displays. And then there's that YUUUUGE Trackpad and the TouchBar; all I can say is the only person I know that has a tbMBP 15 LOVES the TouchBar. YMMV.

2. iMac and mini. Now that Intel has (finally) released the CPUs that Apple wants to use, look for those to be updated this spring. And I think that with Skylake being so low-power, we MAY just see a Quad-core mini again this time, and it's a cinch that Apple will be updating all those machines to be USB-C/TB3 as well. Jury's still out on whether they will release an external keyboard with TouchBar; but I think they will do that.

3. Mac Pro. Again, Intel is the reason that the Mac Pro hasn't been updated in this much time. Until now. Intel has just released a Skylake-based Xeon variant, that (finally!) promises to be a good fit for an updated Pro. Same thing with the GPUs. Despite their age; both the CPU and the GPUs in the 2012 Mac Pro remain fairly competitive for their intended applications. People constantly try to compare GPUs optimized for Gaming to those oPtimized for CAD and video work. But I digress: This year will likely see an updated Mac Pro, with six to eight USB-C/TB3 ports, and an updated CPU. As far as the GPU, I assume it will be updated as well; but I haven't heard any specifics on that.

So, my suggestion is that you give Apple a chance to impress you, and us all, this year (2017), as far as the Mac line goes. I have been an Apple enthusiast since 1976, and I'm telling you, they have NOT lost their mojo; far from it, actually!
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Far from 10 hours of battery life when doing pro related things (remember it called a pro device), lack of magsafe, lack of Nvidia GPU, lack of detachable touch screen that goes into iOS mode when detaching.
Are you under the impression that Apple is really innovating it MBP?

Yes, yes I do.

The 2016 MBP is SO much better than even the model JUST before it (the 2015 MBP), that it isn't even funny. And I'm talking REAL, Engineering Improvements; not things like "skinnification". And the AMD GPUs were chosen because they have much better external display support than Nvidia; so that was actually a WISE choice. I'll give you lack of MagSafe; but Griffin has that covered; so... And your " lack of detachable touch screen" meme is just that: A meme.
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I believe Microsoft claims. There is anecdotal evidence that the Surface is cutting into Apple's market share. They certainly target the same consumer segment. I read somewhere that there are more Surface devices on college campuses and fewer MacBooks and iPads.

I really like the Surface Pro 4 and after getting used to Windows the experience is pretty similar to Apple.

From 10,000 feet, maybe.

I use both on a daily basis, and do not feel the "experience" is at all similar.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

How funny... I have a SurfaceBook. This is why I posted... to show a real life example of someone who switched due to Apple's change business model of running for profit instead of innovating for people like me who always praised Apple in the past and converted many people to Apple. My goal also is for Apple to see these posts, and hopefully the board of directors replace Tim Cook with someone who actually innovates.

So what, pray tell would you consider "innovation"?
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It's got 4 ports for adapters, none for real life devices.

You are Incorrect right now, and increasingly so over the next couple of years.

 

[hiddenmarkov]

16 GB is intel's fault, not Apple's. And why would you want to upgrade RAM in a laptop that already comes with Max RAM possible?

Apple chooses the chipset and motherboard. XPS and razor pro support 32. they are intel based.

Apple said earlier in writing they chose a system that supports 16gb over power use concerns about 32 gb. fair enough...kind of.

A point of contention with some users is we already have power issues now, at 16gb power use. A decent number of folks out there...cannot run their MBP off house power and just pure battery for more than 2-3 hours anyway. I might break 2 hour....might.... on a 2015 when I do my more intensive tasks.

So for us when 16gb is limiting at times and we have accepted and moved on that our work cannot be done off house power for very long....yeah we say throw in 32. At least it solve 1 of the 2 issues.

 

[Juicy Box]

16 GB is intel's fault, not Apple's.

The reply was to someone asking what the limitations are, is the RAM not one?

Also, how is it Intel's fault? Apple chose not to have the increased RAM due to battery life issues, which would be a valid reason if they didn't put a smaller battery in it.

Even with the 16GB RAM, there are still complaints of poor battery life, if there was a 32GB option, then life wouldn't be much different for those that have to plug their MBPs in anyway.

And why would you want to upgrade RAM in a laptop that already comes with Max RAM possible?

Who said that the MBP comes with Max RAM? Only the 15" has 16GB, the other ones have 16GB as a BTO option.

 

[starxd]

I think this sentence needs a comma to be accurate:

"Microsoft reportedly defines "premium devices" as computers that are in the $900-plus price range, which equates to the higher end of the market traditionally led by Apple products such as the MacBook Pro."

If you put a comma after the word "market" this would be a true statement. Without the comma it's completely inaccurate. $900 most certainly NOT the higher end of the market traditionally led by Apple. In fact, $900 is at the very low end of the market segment Apple operates in.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Apple chooses the chipset and motherboard. XPS and razor pro support 32. they are intel based.

Apple said earlier in writing they chose a system that supports 16gb over power use concerns about 32 gb. fair enough...kind of.

A point of contention with some users is we already have power issues now, at 16gb power use. A decent number of folks out there...cannot run their MBP off house power and just pure battery for more than 2-3 hours anyway. I might break 2 hour....might.... on a 2015 when I do my more intensive tasks.

So for us when 16gb is limiting at times and we have accepted and moved on that our work cannot be done off house power for very long....yeah we say throw in 32. At least it solve 1 of the 2 issues.

And the XPS and Razor are using "desktop" chips that have HALF the battery-life and HALF the CPU cores (IIRC).

And unfortunately, for the relatively few that truly REQUIRE 32 GB, pretty much EVERYONE will suffer; because with soldered RAM, people naturally tend to "max out" their storage, even IF they don't need it; then watch as all the reviewers start bitching about MBPs only getting 2 or 3 hours of battery life.

 

[hiddenmarkov]

And the XPS and Razor are using "desktop" chips that have HALF the battery-life and HALF the CPU cores (IIRC).

And unfortunately, for the relatively few that truly REQUIRE 32 GB, pretty much EVERYONE will suffer; because with soldered RAM, people naturally tend to "max out" their storage, even IF they don't need it; then watch as all the reviewers start bitching about MBPs only getting 2 or 3 hours of battery life.

I will enter this cyclical debate again. The market asking for these more powerful systems already can't do their intensive tasks off house power. Battery life not as meaningful a number for some of us. As well....for my intensive tasks at least if my 2015 lasted 3 hours off battery....it be an improvement over what I have now tbh.


Now enters the usual arguments...niche market, well I don't do that so your issue....sums up these thread series. Not going to bring it up since been done before. And well...originally I was just pointing out the blame intel line gets old. Again....intel is slow for everyone.

Dell and others are opting to try new stuff in the interim with actual performance gains. By performance gains I mean computationally intensive tasks and what tricks are being used to work some magic here and to make them go faster. To some this is what really matters.

USB C..I am happy people are happy with it. Really. My angle...you got that large video file you want to fix up. USB C is not longer in the equation...your file is on the system. Its like that nice bagger at the grocery store. Great for offering to carry the bags to your car. Your kids acting up in the car and how do you resolve that situation...thats not his department. He got the groceries into car and is now walking away going man...glad I am young and single and don't have that headache lol.

Touchbar...I find its value of working faster iffy but hey, will grant it may help some since they say so. You now press enter, left click on button, however a long process will start....it too is out of the picture.

Deep though has been asked to solve the question of life the universe and everything. How fast does it come up with the answer 42...this the angle some are more concerned about. Memory can help here.

Apple has an easy out here. A 3rd line. Vanilla mb is the base, current MBP and its continued development under a severe case of electronic anorexia the new midline. And making its debut the 3rd new line. The big dog. Have even said I see the 2011 body being a good base to build this on. Sans the optical drive this time around...she has some room for nice shiny goodies under the hood.

This the gamble other vendors out there have done. This is how dell and others makes it power user base happy and the road warriors who need a laptop to last on that flight from Philly to LA happy as well.

 

[maflynn]

And the XPS

I'm no CPU expert but the i5-7300HQ Quad Core Processor that is in the Dell XPS is a mobile processor with the same TDP (45watts) that the MBP uses.

While the MBP enjoys some advantages over the dell, you cannot deny that the dell XPS is using similar components. In fact there are things that the Dell does better then the MBP. YMMV and one size does not fit all, but the Dell is an excellent machine