Microsoft Supports Epic Games, Says Apple Blocking Access to Unreal Engine Would Harm Game Creators

[PickUrPoison]

That's Google's policy. Not Epic's. You would know that if you bothered to click the link.



Try reading the sources I provided, since they show that it is exactly Google's first party payment processing restriction on the Play Store that has led to Epic's lawsuit, the same as with Apple.



Epic aren't asking to be on Apple's store for free. If Epic sold a game on Apple's App Store, Apple would get 30%. If a customer clicked on IAP in Fortnite via the Apple payment option, Apple would get 30%. But Epic want to launch their own store independent of and competing with Apple's App Store, and offer their own independent payment processing, and that Apple should get 0% of that revenue since it is completely independent of Apple and their App Store.



Yes: "Developers using the Epic Games Store now have more options for processing payments ... We support developers' right to choose among the best stores, in-app payment processors, online services, and engines ... Epic won't take a cut of any payments made through those third-party services."



There is an outcome where Apple and Google are told that they can no longer prevent any other developer from providing an alternative to Google Play and the App Store and their payment processing restrictions. That is Epic's end game. You just refuse to read and/or accept it.



Despite the straw man you keep inventing, nobody is arguing that the provider of a store and the processor of payments should provide all of those services for free. Apple can continue to charge 30% if they like, but Epic is arguing that they should be allowed to provide a competing alternative that only needs to charge 12% to cover costs (and yet still turn a ~5% profit for Epic, which puts Apple's rent extraction into perspective). Someone else could come along and charge 8%.



When you find someone with that experience, be sure to let us know.

I guess Epic has a policy against paying for what it wants lol. It’s interesting you still don’t understand what that is (according to the letter).

You say:

There is an outcome where Apple and Google are told that they can no longer prevent any other developer from providing an alternative to Google Play and the App Store and their payment processing restrictions. That is Epic's end game.

But that is not Epic’s end game, they already have that option with Android. Epic is free to setup their own alternative App Store and payment processor—and then take all the money without sending google a thing.

But that’s not good enough for Epic. They also wants to force themselves onto the Play Store with an app where customers would be able to make purchases that give google 0% IAP revenue share.

To be clear, Epic’s letter demands that Apple must let Epic create their own “Epic store” and carry it on the App Store. Apple would get 0% of those sales. Epic also demands fortnite and other apps be carried on the App Store even though it wants customers to be able to make IAPs that give Apple nothing. 0% to Apple.

As Apple put it, “Epic rightly demands royalties from games built using its development software....Yet somehow, you believe Apple has no right to do the same, and want all the benefits Apple and the App Store provide without having to pay a penny. Apple cannot bow to that unreasonable demand. We must therefore respectfully decline to make the changes you request.”

btw payment processing, which is maybe 1-2% of the transaction price, is just one of the features Apple provides for iPhone devs in exchange for the 30% revenue share. The other 28-29% is for things like APIs, libraries, compilers, development tools, testing, interface libraries, simulators, security features, developer services, cloud services, etc. That is very valuable and expensive IP that Epic wants to use for free. But Epic has no right to use any of it without a license from Apple.

That license is 28-29 of the 30 percentage points Apple charges. Credit card fees are actually pretty cheap when you’ve got the volume of transactions Apple has.

As I’ve explained many times, Epic’s current position—that Apple should be forced to carry apps where customers can make IAPs but Apple gets 0%—is not a viable outcome.

You say “Apple should get 0% of that [third party store] revenue since it is completely independent of Apple and their App Store.” But it’s not independent of the App Store at all, and in fact Epic is demanding that all their apps and stores be carried on the App Store. That’s the exact opposite of being independent of the App Store.

When you find someone with that experience, be sure to let us know.

Why would I need to look for that lol? But Epic is apparently in need of some negotiating assistance, though I’m not sure they’d pay up. Their CEO has a history of deliberately breaching contracts.

Epic keeps saying, “Apple’s 30% is too high. It’s too much. Apple makes profit off selling hardware, so they shouldn’t get the same 30% that we’re ok forking over to the console makers.” And you’ll probably keep saying Epic doesn’t want lower fees 🤷‍♂️

But its ok, I get that you don’t get it lol. It is complicated.

PS It’s amusing how Sweeney gets more and more upset with Apple for refusing to negotiate and near the end the execs don’t even bother with him, they just toss his letter to legal. Boy did that make him mad lol

 

[nickgovier]

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[PickUrPoison]

You asked for the reason why Epic had created a lawsuit against Google, I provided the source from Google that shows Epic does not have the option to provide their own third party IAP payment processing for apps on the Play Store. Now I note you are trying to change your argument from "Google" to "Android", when that doesn't make sense with respect to the lawsuit.

I keep stating Epic's goals, sourced from the legal documentation provided by Epic, Apple, and Google. You keep asserting differently but offer no supporting evidence for your claims.

Either source your claims as I have done, or go spread disinformation somewhere else.



As I'm sure you are aware, the App Store is the only mechanism for consumers to legitimately install third party apps on their iOS device. Epic want a legitimate store, so that is obviously the only possible route to achieve it. Unless you think they should have asked for the Epic Games Store to be preinstalled on every iPhone, so consumers don't have to download it?



I'm glad that you finally accept that Apple charging 30% to process those payments for IAPs is ridiculous.



Please provide a source for your assertion that 93-97% of all of Apple's App Store revenue (28-29% out of 30%) is spent on providing these features.

You will struggle to do so, because you are arguing that Apple makes zero profit on the App Store. That may have been Steve Jobs' original aim, but that ship has long sailed.



If they keep saying it, it should be easy for you to provide a source for one of the times they did. Or, as I suspect, these are more of your assertions dressed up as facts.

So let’s look at Google. (Google Play is an App Store for Android OS. I thought you knew this but you seemed confused about why I referenced Android.)

You said there’s an outcome where “... Google are told that they can no longer prevent any other developer from providing an alternative to Google Play... and their payment processing restrictions. That is Epic's end game.”

What the hell are you talking about? Google doesn’t “prevent any other developer from providing an alternative to Google Play” or it’s payment processing restrictions.

Your so-called end game is the current status quo. Android devs have plenty of alternatives to the Play store—since Google doesn’t prevent them as you claim—to use for the Android platform, with lots of choices for payment processors. Epic’s end game lol.

We both know that Epic already tried what you call their end game: using an alternate payment processor and an alternative App Store to Google Play. It failed miserably. What you call their end game was a disaster.

With Apple, their argument is utterly disingenuous. They say Apple should allow competition, but did they sue to force Apple to allow third-party App Stores? Nope. Because they don’t care about competition for the App Store.

They’re suing to force their own store and games onto Apple’s App Store—but have their customers be able to make purchases that pay Apple 0% instead of 30%.

Why Epic thinks they’re entitled to a 0% revenue share is not clear.

I'm glad that you finally accept that Apple charging 30% to process those payments for IAPs is ridiculous.

Lol I accepted nothing of the sort. Your statement is flawed. Apple doesn’t charge 30% to process payments.

The 30% revenue share covers many things, as I’ve already explained: credit card transaction fees, access to APIs, libraries, compilers, development tools, testing, interface libraries, simulators, security features, developer services, cloud services, etc.

I’m guessing the actual cost to process the payment is maybe 1-2% when you’ve got the volume Apple does 🤷‍♂️

Please provide a source for your assertion that 93-97% of all of Apple's App Store revenue (28-29% out of 30%) is spent on providing these features.

You will struggle to do so, because you are arguing that Apple makes zero profit on the App Store. That may have been Steve Jobs' original aim, but that ship has long sailed.

Nah, no straw man please lol. I never claimed the other 28-29 percentage points of the 30% fee was “spent” on anything. And I’m certainly not arguing that Apple makes zero profit on the App Store. (On the contrary, I assume it is extremely profitable.)

What I did do was provide you a list of some of the developer services that the 30% revenue share pays for. Not coincidentally, it’s also a list of everything Epic gets for free when Apple makes 0% on a customer purchase.

Why Epic thinks they’re entitled to all the benefits of being an iOS developer without paying a penny for any of them isn’t clear.

If they keep saying it, it should be easy for you to provide a source for one of the times they did. Or, as I suspect, these are more of your assertions dressed up as facts.

Here’s a sampling from 2018, 2019 and 2020.

This one is hilarious because Sweeney is praising Google because Android is an open system that lets them have their own store, unlike the big bad Apple lol. (Obviously, this is before their store for Android crashed and burned):

“30% store tax is a high cost,” says Sweeney as Fortnite skips Google Play

Fortnite is finally coming to Android, but not in the way users might expect.

www.gamesindustry.biz

https://twitter.com/x/status/1114664668528873472

https://twitter.com/x/status/1273276548569841667

 

[nickgovier]

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