Microsoft's Shifting Strategy in Response to Apple

[notjustjay]

This does not mean that they're goign to piss off all the manufacturers by building their own machines. What it means is that in order to be allowed to run a Windows licence the hardware manufacturer is goign to have to demonstrate that it's capable of doing so and the components used are certified by MS and of a high enough standard.

In other words, no more 'Vista ready' scandal.

In other words, "Vista Ready - For Real This Time! No, Really, We Mean It Now!"

Which also probably means the end of bargain-basement $299 PC's.

 

[fuziwuzi]

I'm surprised at all the people saying this. If you want a dedicated GPU, you're going to have to pay for it and get a MacBook Pro. The MacBook is cheaper for a reason in that it doesn't have as many options. Everyone wants wants wants but to get it, you'll have to pay for that extra something. And no one seems to want to do that. Everyone wants a computer with top of the line specs but for $1000

i think the problem is the case of forced choices, if you tell people just to get a MBP, then you are kinda buying into the apple mentality of provided limited number of options, and having to compromise to get just one feature. i think alot of users would like a pro package in a smaller form factor, but due to apples choices they have to compromise.

 

[madmaxmedia]

Maybe I need to reread your comments on Apple, but it seemed to me you were regarding business decisions, such as the one to buy NeXT and bring Steve Jobs back, as lucky. I see it as a good business decision, not luck. The fact that it worked out so very well for Apple might be luck on some level, but again I am making a different distinction I believe.

Yeah, I definitely don't mean they were pure luck, there were good business decisions. My point was more that some of these circumstances were providential (is that a word?) to Apple, but then they were able to take advantage of those opportunities. I sorta see Microsoft's initial success in the same way- Bill Gates didn't invent the clone market, the original IBM PC, or even write DOS to begin with. But the opportunity was there, and he succeeded at taking advantage of it.

The reason I find this to be exceptionally quirky is the lack of success of this model virtually anywhere else it has been tried, even by Microsoft, and they should be past-master at it. The events leading up to this success were a one-off, and could not be duplicated. Apple has used the far more traditional industrial product development model which we are calling "end-to-end." Take any product off the shelf randomly and think you'll find it got there by this method.

The model was based on the circumstances in which it arose, in that sense I 100% agree with you. But it was the right model for Microsoft at that particular time. And going forward, what is important for MS is to take a good, hard look at current market, and decide what is the best response. Unfortunately for Microsoft, they don't seem to show any inclination towards doing so- they still are trying to be all things to everyone, which is really no model at all.

But I don't really consider any 'model' to be good or bad, independent of the circumstances. I understand your point about Apple and 'end to end' development. But Microsoft did exactly the right thing at that particular time. And every day, some new business springs into life based on whatever particular circumstances govern it.

Thanks, Steve

 

[Breegy]

Everyone wants a computer with top of the line specs but for $1000

Uhm, not even the top of the line specs. But if you're paying over 1k for a laptop, it should at least have dedicated graphics and the top of the line specs for that price, meaning as much as they can afford to put with the money you're spending. It's ridicilous having to pay 1k more for a Pro when that's all you want.

 

[diamond.g]

Xbox isn't actually that successful, in the scheme of things it is much more worthy to drop than Windows Mobile.

Oh God Xbox is a $3 billion sinkhole at the moment, no doubt. I only call it out because MS is conspicuously attached to the brand, hemorrhages cash into it, and they have, in installed base, a hit AND preposterously loyal early and middle adopters considering the absolutely jaw-dropping approx. 1/3 initial runs hardware defect rate that persisted far, far beyond the length of time such a massive defect rate can nominally persist in consumer electronics -- and it's STILL not low enough to be a nominal consumer electronics defect rate. Yet still Xbox 360 gamers stick with. I think though Windows Mobile has far deeper market penetration, their WM customers are far less loyal to that brand than Xbox customers are to that brand.

Also, I wasn't suggested they drop it, per se. Just that it mutate to a profitable "also-ran" in smartphone OSes (in mindshare, even if it exceeds others in installed base); failing that, then perhaps kill it off.

Actually the 360 is doing well considering*. The only reason why is due to games and it coming out first. If the PS3 was $100 cheaper, came out in 2005 and had more games this would have been PS2 vs Xbox all over again. MS is trying hard to make money from that division which is why the prices are still as high as they are (note Sony isn't dropping price either).

Apple would have to go through a similar money sink if they wanted to compete in the set top box console market. Unless they pulled a Nintendo and were to have some killer, exclusive, games and experience. At this point Apple would have to better Nintendo's experience without the exclusive games (which as Sony and MS are finding out is quite hard).

* by well I mean that the 360 is seen in good light considering it comes from the most hated Company on the planet. Plus MS isn't just buying up everything like they did the first time around so they are hurting anyone's feelings.

 

[Eraserhead]

and Parallels and VMware...

And on a PC you can run Linux, which I think is the point BongoBanger is trying to make.

I see Bongobanger (or is that bong hitter) is on a roll with ripping every sentence of people's post 🙄

But he does mostly appear to know what he's talking about, and debating with people who know what they are talking about is interesting.

yesh, he and a few others is what makes this board so dis-tasteful. 😱

If the posters in question are breaking the forum rules then report him to the mods with the /!\ so they can deal with it 🙂.

* by well I mean that the 360 is seen in good light considering it comes from the most hated Company on the planet. Plus MS isn't just buying up everything like they did the first time around so they are hurting anyone's feelings.

I don't think many people actually care about that, it didn't stop IBM dominating the industry until the 1980's.

If I thought the Xbox was the best console and I was buying a console I'd get one.

 

[fuziwuzi]

Actually the 360 is doing well considering.

lol, MS had to increase their warranty from 1 to 3 years because of many failures. despite that, they still sell alot. i just wouldn't want them to go end-to-end hand have to buy pc hardware off them lol

 

[Syrus28]

Uhm, not even the top of the line specs. But if you're paying over 1k for a laptop, it should at least have dedicated graphics and the top of the line specs for that price, meaning as much as they can afford to put with the money you're spending. It's ridiculous having to pay 1k more for a Pro when that's all you want.

Exactly.. Its ridiculous

Want a small screen? $1100+ MacBook
Want a dedicated GPU? $2000+ MacBook Pro
Want a light laptop? $1800+ MacBook Air
Want a all-in-one? $1200+ iMac
Want a real desktop? $2800+ Mac

What happens when I want a light laptop with screen <15 inches and dedicated GPU? What about a 15 inch with a integrated GPU? What If I want a desktop, but would like to use my own screen, but don't want to pay $3000?

 

[walnuts]

So they are shifting focus back to Windows, does that mean they are going to shift focus away from their already hampered MacBU/office for mac development?

 

[diamond.g]

I don't think many people actually care about that, it didn't stop IBM dominating the industry until the 1980's.

If I thought the Xbox was the best console and I was buying a console I'd get one.

That could be true. I don't think it is the best console (nor do I think the Wii is the best).

lol, MS had to increase their warranty from 1 to 3 years because of many failures. despite that, they still sell alot. i just wouldn't want them to go end-to-end hand have to buy pc hardware off them lol

The fear of losing money really screwed the 360 (hardware wise).

Exactly.. Its ridiculous

Want a small screen? $1100+ MacBook
Want a dedicated GPU? $2000+ MacBook Pro
Want a light laptop? $1800+ MacBook Air
Want a all-in-one? $1200+ iMac
Want a real desktop? $2800+ Mac

What happens when I want a light laptop with screen <15 inches and dedicated GPU? What about a 15 inch with a integrated GPU? What If I want a desktop, but would like to use my own screen, but don't want to pay $3000?

Apple expects you to buy one of each. Or not buy any at all. 😀

 

[fuziwuzi]

the impression i get is that they are going to try more end-to-end style packageing with mobile segment.

if anyone had been reading the PC sites, you'll know that MS is pushing hardware manufacturers to get onboard for windows 7. the see the hardware driver issue as a massive problem with vista, and are trying to get tighter integration with hardware, so that people have have a pseudo end to end experience with component software.

 

[MacFly123]

So he wants to redefine what end-to-end means? MS can't be an end-to-end system because they aren't an end-to-end system. Until MS starts making their own computers they can't be an end-to-end system. Ballmer just wants to make it look like they are trying because if all you're doing is working with Dell/Acer/HP/Toshiba/etc on making sure THEIR products work then you'll NEVER be an end-to-end company.

Eh well - it's not exactly like ballmer has ever been a master of the English language anyway. *squirt*

Yup. It is only going to get worse. Especially with Windows 7 coming and a pathetic implementation of Multi-Touch lol. You really think they are going to be able to implement that into all the hardware in a consistent and user-friendly way??? Um NO, lol!

What I think is really interesting is that I can see Microsoft demanding more than ever and trying to push their weight around more than ever in order to accomplish these new Apple goals of theirs, and in the process they will spur a new break off competitor that might even end up making their own OS and hardware (computers and or phones etc.) because the world is so sick of Microsoft bullying everyone around.

That will be very interesting to see! Google comes to mind 😱

What this really comes down to is that Microsoft's success with the so-called "component model" was a fluke, an historical anomaly. It would be difficult to find another example of where it worked well for anyone else at any other time, including for Microsoft. They are just learning this it seems, having failed to implement it successfully in other markets. I think they're going to continue to struggle to get the same "seamless experience" out of the Windows PC market that Apple offers. They just don't have that sort of control over the OEMs -- in fact, they have less control today than they did just a few years ago. They're going to continue to jawbone the issue, but produce little. That's my prediction.

AMEN!!!!! Will they get better and copy Apple even more than ever before??? YES. But will they spend billions more in money and resources only to still suck in comparison? YES! Lol, it is really very sad, but yes competition is good.

 

[SinfonianShrek]

You proved my point.

X now Y, no more X. Linux changes face so much, you can't keep up so writing software for them is well mind boggling and you can't gurantee your platform will be around.

Atleast with mac and windows there is a standard people agree to.

Linux - there is so many implementations and fragmentations that you cannot be totally guaranteed that it will run on the other implementation. Atleast with mac and MS (well, until vista) there is backward compatibility and a sense that if I move something from Windows 2000 to XP, it will run 99% of the time. Same with tiger to Leopard. With Linux, you are left with well... take a chance it may run.

On the other hand, open source has so many contributors that someone will come up with a version pretty quickly - just hope you do not need support.

Ok, that's fallacy at best. Just because the distro "changes faces" doesn't mean it changes how its core technologies work. That's like me changing my name to Larry and then becoming lactose intolerant and blaming the name change. The fact is that Linux advances very rapidly because of its huge user network which is constantly testing and modifying the code in attempts to improve the OS, not because they suddenly are bought/organize into a corporation/decide to rename due to leading group changes.

You see each flavor as it's own island. There are so many islands spread so far that there's no way it could be a cohesive union, right? Wrong. While there are many different distros there are really only a small handful of variants that power the individual flavors with minuscule, often only cosmetic, differences separating them. Underneath it all most *nix distros operate the same and this results in the difference of making most software run on multiple variants as small of a change as compiling the source on the target system rather than depending on a pre-built binary.

Yes, it creates an environment requiring far more user expertise but that's part of the whole *nix mentality. You know what you're doing and thus can set your computer up to run forever with little to no maintenance after the initial, though difficult, configuration.

I have never advocated the mass replacement of desktop OSes with any variant of *nix, save for Mac. It's just far too involved for the common user to figure out. I have, however, touted it as a necessary replacement for almost every server OS I have ever gotten my grubby hands on.

**EDIT - For clarity's sake, I meant that I have never advocated replacing desktop OSes with a *nix format except for recommending the adoption of Mac OS X.

 

[InkMaster]

All talk no action. Classic Microsoft.

Over-promise, Under-deliver. The Microsoft Way™

 

[Syrus28]

Yup. It is only going to get worse. Especially with Windows 7 coming and a pathetic implementation of Multi-Touch lol. You really think they are going to be able to implement that into all the hardware in a consistent and user-friendly way??? Um NO, lol!

Your basing your opinion on... what?

What I think is really interesting is that I can see Microsoft demanding more than ever and trying to push their weight around more than ever in order to accomplish these new Apple goals of theirs, and in the process they will spur a new break off competitor that might even end up making their own OS and hardware (computers and or phones etc.) because the world is so sick of Microsoft bullying everyone around.

That will be very interesting to see! Google comes to mind 😱

Oh, yes. That's how the business world works. "We don't like you, so we are going to make a new OS and hardware better than yours ever was!" Get real. That sounds like a comic book...

 

[Povilas]

i think MS needs some kick ass product designers. then... apple will be in trouble.

Most of kick ass designers work at Apple 😉

 

[monica23]

Makes me recall an article from about two years ago:

Apple's End-To-End Model Leads to Innovation and User Experience

Funny to see Ballmer using the same words 🙂

I think the following form that article sums is up perfectly:

"Apple does not have to rely on an OS vendor or third-party software vendors to write software to allow Apple to innovate. Apple has free will to design and innovate as they see fit and most importantly, how to impact the daily computing experience for its customers. Hardware engineers within Apple can work in conjunction with software engineers to bring forth new technologies and computing features. This provides Apple the ability to build products and technologies that once they reach the shelf, demand a technology premium but more importantly, a user experience premium."

 

[clevin]

What I don't understand is: why is Microsoft and Ballmer so worried and so dead set on beating out competition? If they really are 30-1, why should they care?
.

well, numbers are all there, no need to doubt it.

Over-promise, Under-deliver. The Microsoft Way™

We deliver pre-mature products, and our customers take it w/o complain, the Apple way™ 😛

 

[Peruchito]

Exactly.. Its ridiculous

Want a small screen? $1100+ MacBook
Want a dedicated GPU? $2000+ MacBook Pro
Want a light laptop? $1800+ MacBook Air
Want a all-in-one? $1200+ iMac
Want a real desktop? $2800+ Mac

What happens when I want a light laptop with screen <15 inches and dedicated GPU? What about a 15 inch with a integrated GPU? What If I want a desktop, but would like to use my own screen, but don't want to pay $3000?

the answer is BUY A PC AND SUCK IT UP or just SUCK IT UP.

if you don't like what apple is doing. leave. i am getting tired of these weird complaints. i'd like a BMW too. but i can't afford it. you know what i do? i SUCK IT UP and get a something i can afford or don't get anything.

 

[johncarync]

Imagine...

Imagine...

Imagine Microsoft coming out with a phone that beats the iPhone hands down...the zPhone

Imagine that the zPhone will have better visual voicemail than the iPhone.
Imagine that the zPhone will make music purchasing and playing easier than iPhone/iTunes.
Imagine that the zPhone will have a huge array of stable applications to download.
Imagine that the zPhone will integrate seamlessly with your computer.
Imagine a touch interface on the zPhone that will blow the iPhone away.
Imagine a user interface that will make the iPhone interface seem archaic.
Imagine the zPhone being an overwhelming success.

...then call me and let me know what it's like because I can't imagine any of these things happening.

 

[joecd77]

So he wants to redefine what end-to-end means? MS can't be an end-to-end system because they aren't an end-to-end system. Until MS starts making their own computers they can't be an end-to-end system. Ballmer just wants to make it look like they are trying because if all you're doing is working with Dell/Acer/HP/Toshiba/etc on making sure THEIR products work then you'll NEVER be an end-to-end company.

Eh well - it's not exactly like ballmer has ever been a master of the English language anyway. *squirt*

Apparently since the Zune has been so successful they’re planning on expanding the end-to-end strategy to PCs. If I were Dell I would be worried – Maybe they shouldn’t have started selling PCs with Linux. I can see it now…. Microsoft VistaBook PowerPC G6 running Snow Vista 2009 2nd Ultimate Professional Edition for VistaBooks.

This reminds me of an article I read a few years ago where Bill Gate allegedly said that the iPod won’t last and that people want to listen to their music on their Phone. Sometime later, Steve Jobs responded to a comment regarding Microsoft licensing their DRM to MP3 makers and that if Microsoft ever wanted to compete with the iPod they would have to get into the hardware business. Of course the iPhone and Zune were later released.

 

[clevin]

the answer is BUY A PC AND SUCK IT UP or just SUCK IT UP.

if you don't like what apple is doing. leave. i am getting tired of these weird complaints. i'd like a BMW too. but i can't afford it. you know what i do? i SUCK IT UP and get a something i can afford or don't get anything.

show me the forum rule which says people can't complain about apple's business model.

 

[Syrus28]

the answer is BUY A PC AND SUCK IT UP or just SUCK IT UP.

if you don't like what apple is doing. leave. i am getting tired of these weird complaints. i'd like a BMW too. but i can't afford it. you know what i do? i SUCK IT UP and get a something i can afford or don't get anything.

You make no sense. How is wanting a 13-inch laptop with a dedicated GPU a "weird" complaint. And since Apple doesn't offer it, the "I cant afford it" complaint doesn't even factor in... Please, go back in your cave and come back out when you can comprehend some simple English.

 

[sishaw]

show me the forum rule which says people can't complain about apple's business model.

Complaining because Apple doesn't have a particular configuration that one wants is not really complaining about their business model, it's a complaint that Apple isn't meeting your personal preferences. Apple has a huge market cap, increasing market share, large cash reserves, and consistently produces innovative, quality products--I would say that their business model, even if it doesn't meet everyone's needs, is quite successful.

If Apple gets MS to look more closely at the end user experience, all the better for everyone.

 

[ely]

With Microsoft's acquisition of Danger, couldn't they just beef up the Hiptop/Sidekick's existing video and music capabilities and storage, tweak the OS, and call it an entry-level Zune phone? It's currently even more closed off than the iPhone.