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Spoilers Middle Earth/The Hobbit/ Lord of the Rings

Huntn

Huntn

macrumors Penryn
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May 5, 2008
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The Misty Mountains
Just watched this series (LOTR) for the umpteenth time. :)

Interesting trivia to understand how big a sacrifice Arwen made to be with Aragorn.

Arwin and Aragorn
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwen
As told in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen",[1] Aragorn in his twentieth year met Arwen for the first time in Rivendell, where he lived under Elrond's protection. Arwen, then over 2700 years old, had recently returned to her father's home after living for a while with her grandmother Lady Galadriel in Lórien. Aragorn fell in love with Arwen at first sight. Some thirty years later, the two were reunited in Lórien. Arwen reciprocated Aragorn's love, and on the mound of Cerin Amroth they committed themselves to marry each other. In making that choice, Arwen gave up the Elvish immortality available to her as a daughter of Elrond and agreed to remain in Middle-earth instead of traveling to the Undying Lands.

Link that compares the LOTR movies to books:
lotr.fandom.com

Movie vs. Book: Fellowship of the Ring

The differences between J.R.R. Tolkien's book The Fellowship of the Ring and the Peter Jackson film screenplay of the same name are fairly easy to document because, in both the book and film, the story maintains a single thread from beginning to end. While there are some changes in sequence, the...
lotr.fandom.com lotr.fandom.com

I wanted to save my Return of the King synopsis from the movie thread:

Huntn said:
Lord of the Rings Pt3: The Return of the King- (2003) Magnificent story composition. This movie always makes me emotional. :)
Sad to admit this, but I fast forward through much of the Frodo Gollum arc except for Shelob, Samwise saves Frodo and carries him up the mountain to their fate.
Spoilers/Memorable Plot Points :p
  • Arwen gives up immortality for love and a mortal life.
  • The blade is reforged!
  • Eowyn’s arc- unrequited love for Aragorn leading to the ultimate climax!
  • The Stewart of Minas Tirith who refuses to acknowledge a scruffy ranger as his King.
  • The lighting of the beacons against the Steward’s wishes.
  • Riders of Rohan ride for Gondor.
  • Nazgul fly! Gandalf’s light, fends them off!

  • The really ugly Orc commander.
  • The Steward tells Faramir, he’d rather have his other son Borimir alive. Faramir rides to apparent death to please his father, accompanied by Pippen’s mournful tune. (This brings a tear to my eye every time.)

  • Aragorn takes the Dimholt Road to call in a debt. Fight for us and regain your honor!
  • The assault on Minus Terith. The Steward yells Run Away! Gandalf knocks him on the noggin and tells the Soldiers of Gondore to fight!
  • Nazgul hold air superiority until some eagles show up (later).
  • Frodo setup by Gollum gets stabbed in the back by Shelob and Samwise kicks her butt.
  • The Steward seeks a fiery end and does his impression of a Roman Candle in a magnificent dive.
  • Riders of Rohan appear on a hill top overlooking the Battle of Pelennor Fields. King Theodin rouses his men to battle! A sword day, a red day and the Sun rises! They cut a huge swath through the orc army.
  • Oliphants! The cinematography of Eowyn and Merry riding between the legs of these monsters slashing their legs is incredible.

  • Gandalf speaks to Pippen of death, the journey does not end here.
  • In one of the greatest fantasy battle scenes, Legolas takes down an Oliphant single handedly, killing 30 men and Gimli retorts that only counts as one!
  • Aragorn devises a feint, a diversion, to help Frodo and Sam in Mordor, get to Mount Doom.
  • Sam saves Frodo from orcs and carries him up the mountain.
  • What are you waiting for? Just let it go! Gollum fulfills his destiny finally retrieving the Ring of Power.

  • Bilbo, Frodo, and Gandalf leave Middle Earth with the Elves.
Click to expand...
 
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waloshin said:
Was sad when the hobbit triology was over. Wish everything could continue.
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You never know, in another 20 years they might come up with more sequels, after they re-do the existing ones with newer CGI to add even more characters and effects they wanted to have originally but didn't get to. ;)
 
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C DM said:
You never know, in another 20 years they might come up with more sequels, after they re-do the existing ones with newer CGI to add even more characters and effects they wanted to have originally but didn't get to. ;)
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And then, let us not forget the possibility of prequels, at least a dozen of them, along with much arcane lore of Middle Earth.
 
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Scepticalscribe said:
And then, let us not forget the possibility of prequels, at least a dozen of them, along with much arcane lore of Middle Earth.
Click to expand...


There are some movies i can watch over, and over, and over, and over .

I'll never get tired of them. Having said that, i'll stick to the originals...

Once you tell the story of Frodo going off again in wired and far out places, so far from what the books, its not even related anymore.

That's when i stop watching, I may keep the prequels, but won't watch them as often... My place is with the original story.
 
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Never fancied it myself. Though I've read that Amazon is going to make a series out of it and spend upwards of $1B on it. Should be a treat to watch.
 
waloshin said:
Was sad when the hobbit triology was over. Wish everything could continue.
Click to expand...

rafark said:
We need more! Actually a series of it would be nice.
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Disney needs to buy it. :p Kidding, but I would not be against another story if it could move me like the LOTR trilogy did. As a child, the Hobbit was the first fantasy book I read probably 10 years old. It transported me.

Unfortunately in a cash grab Peter Jackson/The Studio decided that they would LOTRosize The Hobbit with the exact thinking if we make it, bloated up and significantly altered, with added climaxes (screw the book fans) they will still come. :(
 
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The half-elven choice between the fate of elves and the fate of men is a really deep concept (very much a signature of Tolkien!) - and I think Arwen is making an extraordinarily brave decision to die when she has the option... I’m glad the films give her a greater role than the books do where I think she’s a bit too glossed over!
 
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Difference between goblins and Orcs.
Of interest the difference between goblins (The Hobbit) and orcs (LOTR), by all accounts they are the same or at most one the subset of another.

“The term goblin was used primarily in The Hobbit but also in The Lord of the Rings where it is used synonymously with "Orc". "Goblin" is an English word, whereas "Orc" is Old English, the language used by Tolkien to represent Rohirric. Thus, there is no difference between Orcs and Goblins.May 29, 2018
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs

Orcs
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)
In J. R. R. Tolkien's fantasy writings, Orcs are a race of creatures who are used as soldiers and henchmen by both the greater and lesser villains of The Silmarillion, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings—Morgoth, Sauron and Saruman.

Orcs, Goblins, Yrch, Rakhâs, Gorgûn

Artist's impression
Attributes
Founder Morgoth
Leader(s) The Great Goblin (in The Hobbit)
Capital Mount Gundabad, Goblin-town, Barad-dûr, Orthanc
Home world Arda
Base of operations Misty Mountains, Mordor, Isengard
Language Orkish, Black Speech
Although not entirely dim-witted and occasionally crafty, they are portrayed as miserable beings, hating everyone including themselves and their masters, whom they serve out of fear. They make no beautiful things, but rather design cunning devices made to hurt and destroy.

In some of his unpublished early work, Tolkien appears to distinguish orcs from goblins. By the time of his published work, however, the terms had become synonymous. The Hobbit generally uses the term goblin, while The Lord of the Rings prefers orc. The opponents of the dwarves in "Dwarf and Goblin War" of The Hobbit are described as orcs in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. No distinction is made by size; large orcs, including the Uruk-hai, are just as much goblins as are smaller ones

Regarding the origin of orcs
The Silmarillion contains a suggestion that Orcs are descended from East Elves (Avari) captured by Melkor, their minds and bodies distorted and corrupted. There is evidence of the immortality, or otherwise long life of Orcs. ... They were elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_(Middle-earth)

However an outstanding post on Quora:
Origins- Elf, Dwarf, Human, Hobbit, Orc
https://www.quora.com/Are-elves-dwarves-humans-hobbits-and-orcs-genetically-related
Yes and no, and also maybe.

Tolkien wasn’t a scientifically minded person, much less a biologist, and didn’t think in those terms.

That said, he acknowledged that Elves and Men must be the same species biologically, since they are capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. He ascribed the differences between them to their differing spirituality: the spirits of Elves are bound to the World as long as Time endures, and their physical immortality and physiological robustness (my description, not Tolkien’s) are consequences of this.

Men and Hobbits are indeed related. Hobbits are described as being an offshoot of Men. Spiritually, both are of the Secondborn Children of Iluvatar; both are Mortal and depart the Circles of the World upon death. They could likely interbreed if they were so inclined, although there’s no suggestion that any have done so or desired to do so. Historically, Hobbits derived most of their culture from the local Mannish population, especially language and stories. For example, at one time Hobbits and the ancestors of the Rohirrim occupied the same territory around Anduin between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood, and the two cultures had many words of common origin (e.g., Hobbit and Holbytla).

Dwarves, in Tolkien’s world, had a separate origin from Elves and Men. Elves and Men are the direct creations of Iluvatar and are His Children. Dwarves were created by the Vala Aule, who was impatient for the coming of the Children and wanted beings unlike himself to talk to and teach. Neither he nor the other Valar knew quite what Men and Elves would be like, so Aule’s version was a little off in appearance. When first created, the Dwarves were not independent beings but were wholly dependent on the will of Aule. Aule offered to destroy his creations, but instead Iluvatar granted them independent wills and existence. Dwarves seem to have odd genetics. Their sex ratio is different: one female for every two mnales. They are mortal but long lived compared to Men and even Hobbits, often living to 300 or so. Both sexes have beards from childhood. They are immensely strong.

Tolkien changed his mind about the nature and origins of Orcs. In The Silmarillion, they were Elves who had been tortured and corrupted, apparently by some rather Lamarckian process. His thoughts on the matter later changed. In the “Myths Transformed” chapter of Morgoth’s Ring (HoME X), he seems to havedecided that most Orcs were corrupted Men and that the Orcs of the early first age must have been embodied lesser Maiar (and that later, some of their leaders continued to be so). He came to view Orcs (and Trolls) as not having souls or true independent wills, but a fascimile thereof while their masters (Morgoth and Sauron) were around. Orcs bred and multiplied “after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar,” which must mean that female Orcs existed, were impregnated by males, gestated, and gave birth. Orcs and Men (sexes not disclosed) could be made to interbreed. Saruman is said to have had half-Orcs in his service, and in Bree, Frodo speculated that Bill Ferny was in league with a man having Orc-blood.

[doublepost=1528205263][/doublepost]
Tech198 said:
There are some movies i can watch over, and over, and over, and over .

I'll never get tired of them. Having said that, i'll stick to the originals...

Once you tell the story of Frodo going off again in wired and far out places, so far from what the books, its not even related anymore.

That's when i stop watching, I may keep the prequels, but won't watch them as often... My place is with the original story.
Click to expand...
I agree completely. The Hobbit Movie series was just a money grab where they maintained a framework, but then bloated it out, destroyed the nature of the story for $$. I was finished after I watched the first movie and it's tacked on climax. Ended up seeing the second one with my Grandson, but was not happy with the portrayal of Beorn and was disgusted with the over the top Dwarves barrel escape from the wood elves, down the river. Need a little OTT action to hold the audience's attention! :(
 
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I love the books and yes I love the movies! I have all of them on disc/ripped to NAS and have watched them all way to many times to count.

I think a series Amazon is planning on doing could be very interesting.
 
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Huntn said:
Just watched this series (LOTR) for the umpteenth time. :)

Interesting trivia to understand how big a sacrifice Arwen made to be with Aragorn.

Arwin and Aragorn
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwen
As told in "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen",[1] Aragorn in his twentieth year met Arwen for the first time in Rivendell, where he lived under Elrond's protection. Arwen, then over 2700 years old, had recently returned to her father's home after living for a while with her grandmother Lady Galadriel in Lórien. Aragorn fell in love with Arwen at first sight. Some thirty years later, the two were reunited in Lórien. Arwen reciprocated Aragorn's love, and on the mound of Cerin Amroth they committed themselves to marry each other. In making that choice, Arwen gave up the Elvish immortality available to her as a daughter of Elrond and agreed to remain in Middle-earth instead of traveling to the Undying Lands.

I wanted to save my Returnof the King synopsis from the movie thread:
Click to expand...
One of my favorite scenes towards the end of the third movie is when Elrond brings Arwen to Aragorn.

Aragorn finally gains his approval and consent to wed Arwen in that scene because he has met all of Elrond's conditions.
 
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eyoungren said:
One of my favorite scenes towards the end of the third movie is when Elrond brings Arwen to Aragorn.

Aragorn finally gains his approval and consent to wed Arwen in that scene because he has met all of Elrond's conditions.
Click to expand...
One of several scenes that gave me choked me up a bit. I don't normally get emotional over love stories, but... this time. What normally gets me is when I see a scene that strikes me as perfection, the accumulation of a great act, sequenced perfectly, and it's outcome. The climax of Avatar is also awesome, although I may get some disagreement about that from someone. :)
 
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I enjoyed the Hobbit, but I just couldn't get into the Lord of the rings, it was just too much for me.
 
Tolkien gave us a rich mythology, so no need to rehash LoTR and the Hobbits. It's been done to death. Make movie about the First Age or the first downfall of Melkor. Or the Second Age: Sauron's rise to power. So many great stories besides Hobbits and LoTR.

For those who want action, their are plenty of chances for them to have epic battles. Melkor vs Ungoliant, Fingolfin vs Melkor, Ancalogan vs Earendil... the list goes on. Suffice it so say, lots of larger than life heroes fight the source of ALL evil in Middle Earth.
 
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Mousse said:
Tolkien gave us a rich mythology, so no need to rehash LoTR and the Hobbits. It's been done to death. Make movie about the First Age or the first downfall of Melkor. Or the Second Age: Sauron's rise to power. So many great stories besides Hobbits and LoTR.

For those who want action, their are plenty of chances for them to have epic battles. Melkor vs Ungoliant, Fingolfin vs Melkor, Ancalogan vs Earendil... the list goes on. Suffice it so say, lots of larger than life heroes fight the source of ALL evil in Middle Earth.
Click to expand...

Yes! I love this post, I totally agree, great calls on the suggested plots.
 
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Mousse said:
Tolkien gave us a rich mythology, so no need to rehash LoTR and the Hobbits. It's been done to death. Make movie about the First Age or the first downfall of Melkor. Or the Second Age: Sauron's rise to power. So many great stories besides Hobbits and LoTR.

For those who want action, their are plenty of chances for them to have epic battles. Melkor vs Ungoliant, Fingolfin vs Melkor, Ancalogan vs Earendil... the list goes on. Suffice it so say, lots of larger than life heroes fight the source of ALL evil in Middle Earth.
Click to expand...
DO IT! :D
 
if only the Hobbit had a Mexican accent I could have played the role w/o the need for any make up

pout.gif
 
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Mousse said:
Tolkien gave us a rich mythology, so no need to rehash LoTR and the Hobbits. It's been done to death. Make movie about the First Age or the first downfall of Melkor. Or the Second Age: Sauron's rise to power. So many great stories besides Hobbits and LoTR.

For those who want action, their are plenty of chances for them to have epic battles. Melkor vs Ungoliant, Fingolfin vs Melkor, Ancalogan vs Earendil... the list goes on. Suffice it so say, lots of larger than life heroes fight the source of ALL evil in Middle Earth.
Click to expand...
It would be nice - some of the battles in the silmarillion are on a completely different level to what is in LotR - but the Tolkien estate aren’t overly keen on film adaptations - particularly JRRTs son Christopher... perhaps when he’s passed and some of the more distant relatives are wanting to continue benefiting from the windfall of the IP it could happen?
 
maflynn said:
I enjoyed the Hobbit, but I just couldn't get into the Lord of the rings, it was just too much for me.
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Did you make it to The Return of the King? The Battle of Pelennor Fields an amazing battle and the movie a wonderful climax for the story. Of course I had the benefit of being a long time book fan and already vested in the books (reread twice) and the first two movies.
 
Huntn said:
Did you make it to The Return of the King? The Battle of Pelennor Fields an amazing battle and the movie a wonderful climax for the story. Of course I had the benefit of being a long time book fan and already vested in the books (reread twice) and the first two movies.
Click to expand...
No sadly, I forget where I ended, its been a while, but I know I didn't make it deep into the story.
 
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