Mike’s Linux challenge - Does Linux "Just Work?"

[maflynn]

Inspired by LTT, I’m undertaking a similar move. The plan is to install linux on my Razer, and seeing whether Linux can be used as a daily driver? Like Linus, my goals are simple, playing games, using my productivity apps and doing work stuff

Choosing a distro – I’ve used a number of different distros in the past but I’m more familiar with Ubuntu and I think what Pop_OS brings to the table adds a lot. Installing Pop_OS on the Razer was amazingly fast and easy. Not everything was unicorns and rainbows however:

Laptop hardware – one of the major stumbling blocks I ran into is the fact that my Razer uses Nividia Optimus to switch GPUS. This proved to be problematic. Not only in usage but battery life. For reasons described in the game playing paragraph, I needed to be on the discreet GPU and that had a major impact on my battery. Battery life is horrid, if I get 2 hours out of the laptop, I’d be lucky. I saw it drop about 10 percent every 10 minutes. Fan noise, the fan curves and/or power settings are such in Linux that the fans are much more noticeable and distracting. Overall running Linux on my laptop is not ideal.

Game playing - I went to install steam/proton and that was definitely a pain point. Protondb reported that fallout 76 was rated gold and was fairly fast, and stable but that was my experience. I was able to get the game going but only after spending an entire day working on this and spending way too much time in the terminal. In the end, I think it was a combination of things, including the fact I needed to set the discreet GPU in the bios.

Now that i can play games, playing Fallout 76 – was a disappointment, my laptop is fairly powerful but playing it in Linux was not pleasant, stuttering, poor performance, and inconsistent sound - It was playable but not enjoyable. I tried other games with varying levels of success though the sound was consistently inconsistent. It was significantly inferior to windows.

Work stuff – This started out positively as I was able to install Cisco’s anyconnect VPN but, that's where the progress stopped. For some reason I could not remote into the servers and I was unable to get Citrix Workspace running. Both show stopping issues.

Personal productivity, other then not having a OneDrive client, this worked well enough. My personal VPN worked well, 1Password surprised me at working and I was able to do non-work stuff without batting an eyelash.

It just works.
Here’s where the rubber meets the road. Does Linux just work? The answer is no. Do I spend more time problem solving instead of using it? Yes and that’s a problem.

Imo, Linux won’t be taken seriously by the public until it can get to the point where an average computer user is able to install the OS and run his/her apps without spending hours in the terminal - pure and simple

 

[Queen6]

I think it can be done, however one needs to very carefully pick the hardware especially notebooks. I've looked into it myself a few times and had the same drawbacks with notebooks. Yes the primary OS runs, yet a lot of what we take for granted with macOS & Windows just doesn't.

Personally I don't want to spend hours on end tinkering to get things up and running or searching for alternative applications that may or may not work and significantly sacrifice battery life. These days Apple Silicon is about as far as my interest extends as all the applications I need run either natively or under Rosetta 2, even then compromise is a factor.

The answer I believe is to purchase a Linux based notebook and lower expectations...

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

I think it can be done

No question it can be done, and I hope that my post wasn't using such broad strokes to imply my experience will be everyone's experience. Likewise my issues, will not be be everyone's issues.

The answer I believe is to purchase a Linux based notebook and lower expectations...

I think its a mistake to lower one's expectation. If I'm spending 3,000 dollars for a high end System 76 laptop, there's no way that I'm going to lower my expectations. For 3,000 dollars I want a solid, well built premium machine that provides a top notch UX as well and I fully expect that would be the case - I definitely think a System 76 laptop handles Pop_OS a heck of a lot better then my Razer since the company designs the laptop and OS

But there are generalities to consider and that's whether Linux just works - and imo no it does not.

 

[MisterSavage]

I cringed when I read the "playing games" part.

 

[maflynn]

I cringed when I read the "playing games" part.

Why?

 

[triptolemus]

Does Linux just work? The answer is no.

I hope that my post wasn't using such broad strokes

Well, it kinda was.

You're using hardware where a quick google search shows there are known kernel and driver issues which need to be resolved to properly support Ubuntu. Then your conclusion is that Linux "doesn't work". What you've got here is anecdotal. I could counter your conclusion by looking at a project server of mine which shows an uptime of 111 days currently. It's a 2012 mac mini running Ubuntu 18. Does Linux "just work". The answer is Yes.

 

[whiteonline]

Pop_OS supports graphics switching - it worked on my XPS 15.

Graphics Switching (Pop!_OS)

How to use systems with switchable graphics

support.system76.com

 

[maflynn]

Well, it kinda was.

Yeah you're right but at the heart of it, can Linux just work? and I don't believe so (for the most part) - not when solutions require the user to use terminal commands. Yet my issues may not be everyone's issues. My contention is, for Linux to be considered for the masses and a viable alternative to windows/macOS it needs to work out of the box for the majority of hardware out there and I don't that's the case.

Pop_OS supports graphics switching - it worked on my XPS 15.

Yes, and I use it, but I cannot play games unless set the laptop through the bios to use the discreet GPU

 

[Queen6]

No question it can be done, and I hope that my post wasn't using such broad strokes to imply my experience will be everyone's experience. Likewise my issues, will not be be everyone's issues.

I think its a mistake to lower one's expectation. If I'm spending 3,000 dollars for a high end System 76 laptop, there's no way that I'm going to lower my expectations. For 3,000 dollars I want a solid, well built premium machine that provides a top notch UX as well and I fully expect that would be the case - I definitely think a System 76 laptop handles Pop_OS a heck of a lot better then my Razer since the company designs the laptop and OS

But there are generalities to consider and that's whether Linux just works - and imo no it does not.

I don't think you have any other option. I don't mean a poorly designed & built notebook, however you very likely wont see the same level of performance or battery life and similar to Apple Silicon applications may simply not be available.

The other factor with Linux is that it's very scarce in the consumer space and pricing is not entirely attractive. If I was in the market for a new notebook in the $3K range that wasn't Windows based I'd simply opt for a new 14" MBP with 10 core CPU & 1TB SSD and spend the change elsewhere

I would like a Linux machine preferably with KDE Neon (based on Ubuntu), however nothing I have currently runs it well or is pretty old and to get things working does take some fiddling about and it breaks at times. Admittedly been a while since I've had a good look it. TBH it would just be a side project as I don't know enough about Linux, if I have an issue in the field with macOS or Windows I have a pretty solid understanding of both.

Q-6

 

[bsamcash]

I remember my early days of using Linux from the late 90s to mid 00s. It was a true adventure trying to get everything useable. But those days are long gone. Most distros will run fine on anything now.

 

[dmr727]

I find that once I spend the time to get everything configured and set up properly, there's not a lot that needs to be done from that point on. But it certainly doesn't 'just work' out of the gate, at least not in the same manner than Windows or MacOS does. As a nerd I enjoy the period of time spent at the command line to get things set up the way I like, but for your average computer user (I'd bet most of us here don't fall under that category) I can see it still being too intimidating for large scale adoption to take place.

 

[maflynn]

Here's the first video of LTT's Linux challenge that got me to do it as well - actually listening to the WAN show did that, but its interesting to see the struggles that both Linus and Luke ran into, listening to the WAN show, also indicates theirs struggles have continued through the entire series, though Luke I think had an easier go of it

 

[Queen6]

One issue I found is that with some hardware you loose functionality. This Asus for instance has multiple performance settings which get lost on Linux, another an Acer no keyboard & mouse as it's similar in design to a Surface pro and last I looked no drivers for that specific HW.

As said if I really wanted to seriously opt for Linux I'd purchase a Linux notebook and avoid the pitfalls. Similar to Apple Silicon I'd opt for a low tier model to see exactly how the HW & OS worked for my needs. I'm very pleased with my base M1 MBP nor do I see Linux or Windows HW catching up anytime soon. Ultimately for me notebooks are portable and I'll take 20 hours of battery runtime over a lot of other features

Q-6

 

[TechRunner]

As said if I really wanted to seriously opt for Linux I'd purchase a Linux notebook and avoid the pitfalls.

Same. I've dabbled in Linux periodically, and felt great victory when I got everything to run correctly. But if I was going to make a serious run at Linux as a daily driver, I'd definitely look at a notebook built for it, or one of the Dell XPS 13 notebooks configured for Linux.

 

[Spock]

A big corporation like Dell or HP needs to go all in before Linux can start really taking over some market share. If a big computer manufacturer could build a version specific to the hardware like Apple does with macOS, it may have the potential to take off. I am pretty sure that ChromeOS is Linux. If thats the case, it shows that big corporations could push it into the market. It also seems that Microsoft has taken an interest in Linux, I am curious to see what the long term plan is with that. If Microsoft did native Office 365 apps for Linux, that would also help it take off. The same goes for Adobe.

 

[MisterSavage]

Why?

I like Linux a lot but it's not what I would pick if gaming was important to me.

 

[boss.king]

I like Linux a lot but it's not what I would pick if gaming was important to me.

That’s the point of his experiment though, to see if he can get by doing those things in Linux, not to use the best possible OS.

 

[maflynn]

I like Linux a lot but it's not what I would pick if gaming was important to me.

Funny thing is, Valve is just doing that with its SteamDeck. A hand-held device, designed to play just about any game on Steam. If you looked at the video I linked above, Linus and Luke are sticking with Linux for a month and their goal is to play games on it and see if Linux can be a viable alternative.

That’s the point of his experiment though, to see if he can get by doing those things in Linux, not to use the best possible OS.

Yes, there's lots of advantages to using Linux, and I can play games decently, maybe I'll switch. Thanks to LTT, there's been a lot more discussions on the viability of Linux so I thought what the hell, let me give it a shot.

 

[MisterSavage]

Funny thing is, Valve is just doing that with its SteamDeck. A hand-held device, designed to play just about any game on Steam. If you looked at the video I linked above, Linus and Luke are sticking with Linux for a month and their goal is to play games on it and see if Linux can be a viable alternative.

In that scenario I can see where it would be great. They're controlling the OS and the unit is specifically for gaming.

 

[MisterSavage]

That’s the point of his experiment though, to see if he can get by doing those things in Linux, not to use the best possible OS.

I get that but my response was about me, not him.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Interesting. I have a Razer Blade Studio with RTX5000 running dual boot Win10/Pop OS 20. As I need ROS Noetic native, I picked 20 over 21. I’m not really running Win, only Pop. I had two problems with it.

After closing the lid and putting it to sleep, it would randomly kick me out of my session when waking up. It also rebooted every now and when waking it. after a quick Google search, turns out Razer implemented the sensors differently than most other manufacturers. Passing a parameter during boot fixed it.

Keyboard backlight went nuts. Had to fiddle a little to get Razer tools installed, which allowed me to configure it and fix the issue.

That’s about it. I’m not switching GPU, I’m using hybrid mode. No problem with battery life at all, but I usually don’t need GPU when I’m mobile. When I need GPU (CUDA and UE4) I’m usually at my desk and hook it up, so it’s not an issue.

So I guess I can say it just works. My biggest problem with it is size and weight. It feels more chunky than my Intel MBP16, but less than the M1 MBP16. I think the best fit for it is traveling to conferences and working in hotel rooms.

I got a ThinkPad X1 Carbon Gen9 in addition for being mobile (super lightweight). It doesn’t have a dGPU, which is ok for me when mobile. When I’m at my desk I can eGPU it. Running dual boot Win11 (don’t really use it) and Pop 21 on it (using ROS in docker here). Just works out of the box except finger print reader, which needs additional drivers installed. Battery life is great. I went all in on this one, btrfs file system with luks (full encryption for two sub volumes and snapshot capability). I love this laptop. I think I only felt similar excitement for a laptop with my 12” PowerBook G4 and the 2016 MBP13. It is by far my favorite laptop right now.

I don’t play games when mobile and when I’m at home, usually not on a laptop. I have a PC sitting under the desk for that dual booting into Win 10 for games.

Overall my Linux experience is fantastic. I think I’ve had more trouble with macOS the past two years or so than Linux. macOS still doesn’t support forwarding USB devices to docker containers, go figure.

 

[Analog Kid]

Imo, Linux won’t be taken seriously by the public until it can get to the point where an average computer user is able to install the OS and run his/her apps without spending hours in the terminal - pure and simple

I don’t think it’ll ever get there as Linux. That’s not its purpose in this world. Linux is written by geeks for geeks, and geeks have different aesthetics and control issues than normal people. For a lot of geeks, solving problems instead of using it is where the fun is, in the same way someone would constant be in the garage with a vintage car they only take out on special occasions.

Linux has done a lot to improve computing overall. It’s had direct impact in the server world, and a bit in the R&D world. It’s been stripped down to an embedded OS and is making embedded system development easier and more capable. Being a Unix cousin to MacOS, I think it’s made MacOS better as MacOS takes certain queues from Linux over its BSD roots. It’s the one OS I can think of that’s been successfully scaled from small embedded processors to massive server clusters.

It’s just not a consumer OS, and it never will be. There’s no Microsoft or Apple to make it one.

I guess if you consider Android to be Linux, then there’s a consumer version, but I think of Android more as Linux derivative not a Linux distro.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Oh forgot… there is one issue I have with the ThinkPad (have not tried on the Razer). I could not pair my Powerbeats Pro, tried for 20 minutes, then gave up. My Sony headphones paired without any problem at a click of a button. Since the Powerbeats have issues all the time, even when paired to my Apple devices and charging in the case is very unreliable, I thought about replacing them with Sony, Jabra or Soundcore in ears anyway (waiting for Black Friday).

 

[Mr. Dee]

When I was providing technical support for Windows, I did it from a cheap Acer Laptop running Ubuntu. The laptop end up being my daily driver over my Mac and Windows PC. The reason why I was doing this was because Linux handled bandwidth way better than Windows and especially macOS. I was using limited data mobile plan to connect to the Internet from my phone. macOS is just atrocious when it comes to sucking off your mobile data. I tried using utilities like Trip Mode, but didn't do much.

 

[skaertus]

Inspired by LTT, I’m undertaking a similar move. The plan is to install linux on my Razer, and seeing whether Linux can be used as a daily driver? Like Linus, my goals are simple, playing games, using my productivity apps and doing work stuff

Choosing a distro – I’ve used a number of different distros in the past but I’m more familiar with Ubuntu and I think what Pop_OS brings to the table adds a lot. Installing Pop_OS on the Razer was amazingly fast and easy. Not everything was unicorns and rainbows however:

Laptop hardware – one of the major stumbling blocks I ran into is the fact that my Razer uses Nividia Optimus to switch GPUS. This proved to be problematic. Not only in usage but battery life. For reasons described in the game playing paragraph, I needed to be on the discreet GPU and that had a major impact on my battery. Battery life is horrid, if I get 2 hours out of the laptop, I’d be lucky. I saw it drop about 10 percent every 10 minutes. Fan noise, the fan curves and/or power settings are such in Linux that the fans are much more noticeable and distracting. Overall running Linux on my laptop is not ideal.

Game playing - I went to install steam/proton and that was definitely a pain point. Protondb reported that fallout 76 was rated gold and was fairly fast, and stable but that was my experience. I was able to get the game going but only after spending an entire day working on this and spending way too much time in the terminal. In the end, I think it was a combination of things, including the fact I needed to set the discreet GPU in the bios.

Now that i can play games, playing Fallout 76 – was a disappointment, my laptop is fairly powerful but playing it in Linux was not pleasant, stuttering, poor performance, and inconsistent sound - It was playable but not enjoyable. I tried other games with varying levels of success though the sound was consistently inconsistent. It was significantly inferior to windows.

Work stuff – This started out positively as I was able to install Cisco’s anyconnect VPN but, that's where the progress stopped. For some reason I could not remote into the servers and I was unable to get Citrix Workspace running. Both show stopping issues.

Personal productivity, other then not having a OneDrive client, this worked well enough. My personal VPN worked well, 1Password surprised me at working and I was able to do non-work stuff without batting an eyelash.

It just works.
Here’s where the rubber meets the road. Does Linux just work? The answer is no. Do I spend more time problem solving instead of using it? Yes and that’s a problem.

Imo, Linux won’t be taken seriously by the public until it can get to the point where an average computer user is able to install the OS and run his/her apps without spending hours in the terminal - pure and simple

Great post.

Linux does not just work, and this is an important point.

Both Windows and macOS have come a long way before they could "just work". Microsoft and Apple both invested a lot of money, time and effort to provide an experience that would not require much from users.

When you buy a Windows PC or a Mac, it just works. Out of the box. Everything works. If you install Windows on a pre-built PC, it will surprisingly work with little effort; there may be some issues, but it will generally be fine.

Linux does not. Every time I tried Linux, I spent more time solving issues than everything else. If you work with that, then it may be just fine. But if you need to be productive in some other field or if you just want to use your computer to consume content, then Linux is not an option.

The open source model will not work for these purposes. You need a multi-billion dollar company to spend all the money on a product that can be sold. And to be sold, the product must meet the requirements of the buyers and not of the developers.

Android is competitive only because Google invested in it. Linux for the enterprise is viable only because IBM backed it. With no real money from a mega-company, Linux is not and will never be viable.