Mike’s Linux challenge - Does Linux "Just Work?"

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

I suppose it depends on what you want to do.

I like Ubuntu Mate because it runs faster on my iMac (late 2015 27" iMac) than either Windows or macOS.
It is easy to make it look like I want to by putting the bottom task bar on the left and running Plank dock program.
For the things I want to do, like writing, researching, doing Internet stuff (banking, shopping, searching, reading) it is as good as, or better than, the other two OS's.

• LibreOffice runs well
• TeXLive runs faster than on the other two OS's.
• Pandoc runs well

(switching from macOS to Ubuntu to continue...)

• GhostWriter, Typora, Joplin, LyX, Kile, TeXStudio all work as well as, or better.
• AbiWord, FocusWriter work as well as, or better.
• GIMP works as a practical (for me, at least) alternative to Photoshop
• I can do things with gParted and Gnome Disks that I can't do on macOS or Windows. Sometimes I switch to Ubuntu just to re-partition and format a corrupted drive.

I have to solve one problem by making one change to Ubuntu based Linux to run on my particular iMac, and that is to revert to Kernel 4.15.18, because that contains video drivers for my iMac. I can run the latest kernel, but it takes a long time to boot up, and I have some video limitations.

However, having made that change, it takes 14 seconds to boot, compared to 24 for macOS. Processing large LaTeX files is slightly faster than on macOS, and 3x faster than on Windows.

Ubuntu is somewhat 'snappier' performing tasks like opening windows and starting up applications than the other two OS's. It 'feels' more stable. On the very rare occasions it freezes, I can almost always call up a terminal session and do a proper shutdown without pulling the power plug, which I can't do with macOS or Windows.

As I said, for the things I want to do, Ubuntu Mate is as good as, or better.

This doesn't apply to other versions of Linux, like Solus Budgie or SUSE. Elementary OS just annoys me, but it might be a good alternative for my mother, were she still with us.

There are things I can do on macOS that I can't do on the other systems, like run Ulysses or Pages. There are things I can do on Windows that I can't do on the other systems, like run proper, native (not ported) MS Office.

The OP mentioned Game playing and Citrix as pain points, and this will be true. Games are designed to run on one OS, and that's what they run best on. They can be ported, but it will never be as good as the original. Citrix is a pain, because the version you run on your end has to match the version of server your workplace runs. I constantly had to re-install old versions of Citrix on Mac because my employer had not updated their servers.

I can install and run macOS, Windows 10 and 11 and various versions of Linux on my oldish iMac. I need to make one concession to run Ubuntu-based Linuxen on my iMac to cater for the video card. But what I can do on my iMac won't necessarily match what others can do with their laptops. Laptops are a particular problem because of the design constraints they have. These don't apply to full-sized desktops, mac and PC.

 

[bsamcash]

For the things I want to do, like writing, researching, doing Internet stuff (banking, shopping, searching, reading) it is as good as, or better than, the other two OS's.

What's more is you could run either Windows or MacOS in a VM within Ubuntu it might even perform better provided you have enough RAM. I actually did this for a friend's old computer. It was getting so slow with Windows, so I installed a barebones Linux distro and set it up to start up a Windows VM on boot and it ran great and offered better security.

 

[MBAir2010]

after watching that Linus-Linux video:
wouldn't a game console be a better or fail safe option instead of a measly computer?

and
that thingees were they slide ssd drive in a console.
what is that?
can apple things run on one of those?

well im gonna watch Linus trying to use an apple product as he stated, and i cant find
does he know Mojave is very opposite from BigSur?

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

What's more is you could run either Windows or MacOS in a VM within Ubuntu it might even perform better provided you have enough RAM. I actually did this for a friend's old computer. It was getting so slow with Windows, so I installed a barebones Linux distro and set it up to start up a Windows VM on boot and it ran great and offered better security.

This is true. It takes me 24 seconds to compile the TeXLive file 'lshort.tex' under Windows (note, this is using the Windows version of TeXLive) and 8 seconds under Ubuntu running as a VMWare Virtual Machine.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

One further note. It is virtually impossible to run macOS or Windows on a bare-bones spinning platter hard disk drive any more. Everything just takes too long. However, I am running Ubuntu from a HDD, and it is almost as fast as, and sometimes faster than, running Windows on Solid State Drive. Updates are certainly much faster than on Windows or macOS. And I don't need to reboot.

Loading an application the first time is slower, but not as much as you would think. I just loaded LibreOffice the first time after booting off a HDD, and it took 9 seconds, compared to 5 seconds under macOS or Windows on a SSD. After that, loading from cache is 1.5 seconds on Ubuntu, compared to 3.5 seconds under macOS or Windows.

 

[nickdalzell1]

after watching that Linus-Linux video:
wouldn't a game console be a better or fail safe option instead of a measly computer?

and
that thingees were they slide ssd drive in a console.
what is that?
can apple things run on one of those?

well im gonna watch Linus trying to use an apple product as he stated, and i cant find
does he know Mojave is very opposite from BigSur?

Sure, but if you love gaming enough, you miss being able to customize resolutions, upgrade components over time, and have to live with the many concessions of a console. For example, GTA V won't even run in 1080p or have AA on a PlayStation 3, and Farming Simulator 19 doesn't have any real draw distance, LoD distance or AA at all on an Xbox One.

I'm a PC guy, build a gaming rig, install a free OS (or dual boot unactivated Windows) and it's cheaper and you get more benefits than costs.

 

[maflynn]

This is great video that hits the nail on the head regarding Linux usage and who should and shouldn't use Linux.
For my usage, I fit in first two categories.

As I wrap up my Linux challenge, I also want to touch on a couple of things that Linux ambassadors/evangelists mention often when touting Linux.

Open Source
Why is this an advantage? Why is it important? I’m not being coy but seriously what benefit do we have? Does Gimp being open source have more features or stability then Photoshop? Granted, Open Source is usually synonymous with free and people hate the subscription that adobe forces on us, but as a platform what advantages do I receive from using open source.

Distros - with something like 600 distros, I don't see how this is an advantage - at least for the common user/consumer. for specific hobbyists who want/need a specific build yes, but I'm talking for general users. So many is overwhelming to say the least.

I'm a big proponent of using the right tool for the job, and I know a prior member in this thread mentioned how he can get games playing better in Linux then in windows. But by my perspective if we're talking windows games - well then a windows game will run better natively in windows then under wine (in Linux) which is what proton uses.

Overall, I felt I learned a great deal, not that I'm saying I'm a linux guru, but rather I learned more about what works and doesn't work with Linux. I'm still using Linux but at this point its on my desktop within a VM, so I can keep increasing my knowledge. As it stands now, running Linux as a daily driver is a poor fit for me.

 

[iHorseHead]

For some jobs Linux is the best choice (ask programmer).

You have only one post, so I'm not sure if you come back, but I know that many developers would disagree with you.
Especially game developers.

 

[whiteonline]

Open Source
Why is this an advantage?

It’s not an advantage unless you have the evangelical–like stance that all code should be open source. Things are better when shared and we can all build and improve upon existing code. Of course, it’s not realistic to think anyone (businesses) that pay to develop a product would share their IP. It is neither and advantage or disadvantage.

As it stands now, running Linux as a daily driver is a poor fit for me.

I have been working with Unix and Linux since 1999. It wont ever be the choice for desktops because of the very things you experienced. It excels doing grunt work in datacenters however.

As noted earlier, use the best tool for the job. The OS should not get in the way. iPad OS is a prime example of this when people attempt to use the iPad as a full-time laptop.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

...

Open Source
Why is this an advantage? Why is it important? I’m not being coy but seriously what benefit do we have? Does Gimp being open source have more features or stability then Photoshop? Granted, Open Source is usually synonymous with free and people hate the subscription that adobe forces on us, but as a platform what advantages do I receive from using open source.

...

I don't know about Open Source. It may have been an advantage early on, when apps were simpler and any moderately skilled programmer could modify it. Now, there is no way I could delve into the code of something like like LibreOffice, or even a smart editor like TeXStudio to modify it.
With one exception.
There are times when you need to compile an app to make it run on your distro. Not modify, just compile.
Like with Fedora 35, where the version of TeXLive as supplied on the repositories, has a couple of faults. So, I installed the version of TeXLive as distributed the the TUG (TeX Users Group). If I installed Kile or LyX from the repos, it insisted on bringing down the Fedora TeXLive, complete with faults. So I downloaded and compiled the sources for Kile and LyX and installed those apps. Problem solved.
I could not do that with closed source apps like WPS Office or Typora.

However, I like programs like LibreOffice, that use Open Document Formats, like ODT. If you have a program, like MS Word, that uses a Proprietary format, and you lose access to the program, you lose access to the document.
The worst case I came across was there PageMaker would only open the current format of its files, and the previous format. I had to update files from several formats previously. I had to acquire two previous versions of PageMaker to open and update the format of the files in stages till it got to the current version. I still have copies of Apple MacWrite and Symantec More documents that I could not open any more, except for SheepShaver.

Now, I do as much writing as I can in LaTeX or Markdown, and use Pandoc to convert as necessary, because those two systems save files in plain text ASCII. Even without Pandoc, I can take the plain text files, open them in TheNextGreatWordProcessor(TM), convert the formatting and continue on.

 

[MisterSavage]

Open Source
Why is this an advantage? Why is it important? I’m not being coy but seriously what benefit do we have? Does Gimp being open source have more features or stability then Photoshop? Granted, Open Source is usually synonymous with free and people hate the subscription that adobe forces on us, but as a platform what advantages do I receive from using open source.

Well for a security product I consider it a benefit. One of the reasons I went with Bitwarden for my password manager is because it has so many people who could point out vulnerabilities that need to be fixed.

I have been working with Unix and Linux since 1999. It wont ever be the choice for desktops because of the very things you experienced. It excels doing grunt work in datacenters however.

True, and also excels in the millions of consumer devices running embedded Linux.

 

[maflynn]

There are times when you need to compile an app to make it run on your distro. Not modify, just compile.
...
I could not do that with closed source apps like WPS Office or Typora.

On one level I can make an argument that compiling source code could be considered as a disadvantage when viewed through the eyes of a common non-techy user. On my nerdy side, I find that incredibly cool and I think the idea of even updating/changing the kernel to suit your own needs (or finding a different kernel) to be a great option for those hobbyists wanting such things.

My perspective from the beginning of this so called Linux challenge, was this - Is Linux a viable alternative for someone (me) who just wants to play games, and use his computer for daily home and work stuff? Why choose a platform where apps run slower or less stable?

Truth be told, I was actually expecting this from steam, with all of the coverage of Valve's steamdeck and how it will run Linux but yet play nearly every windows game. I really thought I'd be able to install pop_os, install steam, and basically fire up my games and have little to no headaches. I mean, just looking at the gold rating of fallout 76 and that gold rating states "runs perfectly with tweaks" but protondb reports anything but perfect. Hopefully once the steamdeck lands in buyer's hands that will be the case - especially since I ordered one

Well for a security product I consider it a benefit

No question, peer review of security applications is a benefit, but in a way, I'm looking at open source in total, or generalized simply because if you talk with any Linux evangelical, you'll hear open source as an advantage. The OP of this thread Ask me anything: I switched from Mac to Linux because of Apple's surveillance was touting how we all need to support and use open source. I'm not knocking him, but aside from philosophical proclivities, I was wondering what makes it better?

 

[maflynn]

Here's a really good video of a couple of Linux youtubers who react to Linus and Luke's Linux challenge. While very long (its like an hour long) these two guys provide a really refreshing and balanced perspective. These two guys have very good videos on their own and them talking about the pros and cons, I actually really found the YT channel LearnLinuxTV to be a useful resource for me.

 

[grmlin]

I tried this many times now and it's a mess. If you ever thought Windows or Macs have issues scaling their UI for hidpi screens, well, Linux is here to show you what it means if something does not work. Also a ton of other hardware related issues all the time, yeah, no, not happening.

I like Linux as a development machine and 90% of my work happens inside an Ubuntu container in WSL 2 now, but the desktop environments are simply not there yet (and will probably never be) unless you buy the hardware perfectly tailored to match the distro you want to use and don't care for blurry low res screens.

And I'm using a ThinkPad P53 that should work "great" in Linux...

 

[MisterSavage]

No question, peer review of security applications is a benefit, but in a way, I'm looking at open source in total, or generalized simply because if you talk with any Linux evangelical, you'll hear open source as an advantage. The OP of this thread Ask me anything: I switched from Mac to Linux because of Apple's surveillance was touting how we all need to support and use open source. I'm not knocking him, but aside from philosophical proclivities, I was wondering what makes it better?

I get what you're saying. I use LibreOffice and Gimp but I wouldn't claim they're better than paid software from huge companies.

Here's a really good video of a couple of Linux youtubers who react to Linus and Luke's Linux challenge. While very long (its like an hour long) these two guys provide a really refreshing and balanced perspective. These two guys have very good videos on their own and them talking about the pros and cons, I actually really found the YT channel LearnLinuxTV to be a useful resource for me.

I recognize that guy on the left! I watched his videos about Bitwarden when I was choosing a new password manager.

 

[maflynn]

I tried this many times now and it's a mess.

I disagree, I think mint, pop and ubuntu are great examples of how Linux can be done and done well. I have been critical of Linux in this thread, but I do like Linux and I'm not done trying to get it to work. I'm ready to start a Mike's Linux Challenge part II where I'm going to start over and redo things.

One mistake I made was that I forced myself to only try to solve the problem one way even if that one way was not the best approach. For instance, maybe trying to get a given game to run smoothly on Linux via Steam isn't the best approach - maybe I can stream the game from my desktop? There are solutions in Linux to do that as well as the steam client.

Plus with my struggles with gaming, I installed/uninstalled multiple versions of wine, and proton and even steam. Let me start over and go with a cleaner approach

I recognize that guy on the left!

The guy on the right who's channel it is, has been a very good resource. He provides instructions, and details in a way that you don't feel like he's talking down to you. Something that has left a bad taste in my mouth. While many people in the Linux community are very helpful, you get those folks that come off arrogant and their way is the best and if you disagree, you're part of the unwashed masses.

 

[grmlin]

All I can say is, that with multiple monitors that need to be scaled at different fractional factors with an Nvidia card, Linux is a mess. UI scaling in general is the absolute worst of all systems imo.
In the end I simply couldn't use Linux for everyday use because of it, and I tried pretty much all desktop environments and distros ?‍♂️

And it's not really a funky setup in 2022 tbh.

 

[opeter]

Imo, Linux won’t be taken seriously by the public until it can get to the point where an average computer user is able to install the OS and run his/her apps without spending hours in the terminal - pure and simple

This won't happen until these apps have native Linux version. And that is the problem, because most (commercial) applications won't have a Linux version, at least not in the foreseable future.

 

[zarathu]

Linux does not “just work” unless you are a really good tinkerer, and you are good at programming in Unix. I put it on a Dell in 2014-2017, and struggled getting it to run itself and windows XP using a Linux Oracle Virtual box. I had the command that allowed me to reverse what I just did, with me all day. Only about one time in 20 did a new process that I added, NOT SERIOUSLY BREAK SOMETHING I WAS ALREADY USING.

As long as I didn’t ask it to interconnect between the xp and the Linux base, it was fine. But Linux desktop is simply behind the times by about 5 years. I simply got tired of struggling with it in 2017 and bought a refurb 2013 MBP. I could do in one step things that took 3 steps in Linux.

Yes as a platform for managing programming, its great. My son, the Senior Software Engineer, uses it everyday as the vehicle to manage a complex web of projects in various businesses for which he is responsible under contract. But then, he speaks UNIX, like I speak English.

 

[TiggrToo]

For some jobs Linux is the best choice (ask programmer).

Total BS.

Being a "programmer" doesn't necessitate using Linux first and foremost.

For example, I develop most my apps using my MacBook, even though most of the targeted environments are Windows Servers (using .net core).

I'd warrent your experience in development is not very extensive, given your statement.

 

[Queen6]

The guy on the right who's channel it is, has been a very good resource. He provides instructions, and details in a way that you don't feel like he's talking down to you. Something that has left a bad taste in my mouth. While many people in the Linux community are very helpful, you get those folks that come off arrogant and their way is the best and if you disagree, you're part of the unwashed masses.

Sadly there's an element of elitism in the Linux community, that's completely & utterly counter productive

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

Sadly there's an element of elitism in the Linux community,

I was struggling to find the word that best describes my experience with the Linux community. What you posted, describes the issue completely. There's many helpful people, to be sure, and I benefitted greatly from those folks, but sadly, I had my share of run-ins with the not-so-helpful, directly and indirectly

Total BS.

Being a "programmer" doesn't necessitate using Linux first and foremost.

He's not saying that Linux is the only tool for developers, but rather that for many, Linux is in fact a superior environment to develop in - even Microsoft thinks so, as they built in and continue to improve the WSL.

Its great that you don't need Linux but I'd hazard a guess that with your Mac, you're basically doing the same things as people on Linux, i.e., Mac OS has unix roots and the tools you use, are basically similar if not the same as Linux tools for development.

 

[TiggrToo]

Its great that you don't need Linux but I'd hazard a guess that with your Mac, you're basically doing the same things as people on Linux, i.e., Mac OS has unix roots and the tools you use, are basically similar if not the same as Linux tools for development.

Nope. As I stated - I develop using .net core. Nothing to do with Unix. I use Jetbrains Rider as my IDE. I also do Python.

 

[MisterSavage]

Total BS.

Being a "programmer" doesn't necessitate using Linux first and foremost.

For example, I develop most my apps using my MacBook, even though most of the targeted environments are Windows Servers (using .net core).

I'd warrent your experience in development is not very extensive, given your statement.

He got some flack for that statement but for some scenarios Linux is a great choice for development. Also, Git is used by all sorts of programmers and it started on Linux.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Sadly there's an element of elitism in the Linux community, that's completely & utterly counter productive

?Reading that in Apple forum, the very center of brand religion, feels kinda odd.