Mindless PC MAC Rant!

I'm not sure there are many people here who would say that the top of the line Mac would outperform the top of the line PC. But that doesn't mean we don't think PCs are junk.

Why??

Stability. Unix. Seemless device integration. Intuitive OS. Great apps. The iApps. An active and supportive community. Machines that have beatuiful form and function. Some of the best shareware available. A company that doesn't try to control (and own) your life. Things just work.

I'm not a person who thinks Macs don't have problems. I'm a person who admits they aren't prefect, but prefers them because I can get more from a Mac than a PC and I see them getting better everyday.

If all I needed was the fastest computer out there (and how many people really need that?), I'd own a top end Pentium or Athalon built ot order system. There is more to getting work done than crunching numbers, and I can work better in the environment that macs provide.

Taft

 

What's there to flame you about? I think we'll all agree that PCs are faster for the time being, but as for x86 being a great arcitecture, here's where I sorta agree with you. It was for awhile, but it's dying. Like you said, the Athlon is slowly away from it and so is Intel to an extent. Windows XP may be the most bloated of all the versions Microsoft has released, but it's also the most stable. It's nowhere near the level of OSX, but at least it doesn't crash. With that said, I'm in the process of making my PC M$ free. I've got Mandrake 8.2 installed on a seperate partition and seeing if it'll do what I normally do on Windows. (if I can just get that frelling modem to work...) Anywayz, the lines between Mac and PC have been blurred in the past year or so, but that doesn't matter. OSX doesn't run on x86 and that's that. I still hate M$ and will never buy a product from them again. With all the frustration over their recent licensing strategy and their never ending security updates, I suspect that we're going to se a lot more switchers in the coming year, to Mac or Linux.

 

the pros. people employed at ilm, etc.

and they usually have a budget large enough to procure any tower/computer they want.

 

f00, x86 is a PIECE OF **** dont even GO THERE!. I think you should look at the little key that says return on your keyboard...

 

edvniow,

Stop teasing the newbie's writing style.

I'm having just as much trouble with your post as i_wolf's -- the lack of paragraphs and capitals.

But the color makes it even worse.

I plain just got lost in these two paragraph mazes.

And I'm sorry about your position's defense i_wolf, because I honestly don't know which is worse, the testing method at BareFeats or the accounting at Enron.

 

Re: Mindless PC MAC Rant!

I mostly agree with you, i_wolf. Let me pick some nits, though.

I agree - PCs running Windows are much more stable than they used to be. This argument might have held water in 1998, but it doesn't anymore. In general, I think Windows still does crash more, but that's taking into account all the bottom-dollar commodity piece of garbage hardware that it's running on. Quality PC hardware does exist, it's just that it doesn't usually show up at the top of the Pricewatch listings. A good PC is just as high in build quality as a Mac. They're all built in the same Taiwanese factories anyway.

Hear hear, although I take issue with calling SPEC benchmarks rubbish... I think concise is a better word.

I think OS X is a better OS than Windows, but Windows is much less rubbish than it used to be, and OS X is certainly more bloated than any OS in the history of the world, including Windows XP. I'd like somebody to explain why my OS X.1.5 is currently using 252MB of memory running only the Finder, Chimera, a single Terminal window, and a single Stickes. That's just inexcusable. OS X can't achieve on dual 1GHz processors what BeOS managed to achieve on a single 300MHz processor in terms of raw performance. Windows is bloated too, but not even in the same league as OS X.

Alex

 

Alex_ant your a total tool whom everyone hates.....please shut up.

 

So you don't agree?

 

PC's aren't bad, but macs are easyier and more fun to use

 

well this is MHO.

I think that if you haven't used something for a reasonable time, then you are hardly qualified to assess its benefits and weaknesses. I reckon that when it comes down to it, it's all about what you feel comfortable with. The differences in perceived quality are (IMHO) so close that the BIGGEST difference you are likely to encounter is in the user. ie: most issues arise from the infamous PEBCAK Error.

I have been running Windows XP on my 2 machines (1.2ghz Athlon desktop and 366Mhz Pentium II notebook) for a few months now, with very few problems. It's the easiest version of windows I've encountered to configure - you plug things in and they generally work. I have 3-5 XP and Win2k machines in the house all connected up with a broadband router and wireless access point and it all works just fine. In fact, my laptop had some 27 days of uptime before I had to restart it after installing some software. Granted, I know what I'm doing - but that's my point!

Given a decent enough level of technical competence, I don't see any reason why you couldn't use OS X or Win XP with equal ease.

Hell, I'm a long-time PC user who's considering getting a mac for the best of both worlds (whenever the new powerbooks arrive! )

To recap - Hardware and software irrelevant. If you want to blame someone, blame people.

 

i don't hate alex. i just disagree with how straight forward he is sometimes... ha


it's cool if you don't use caps and proper spelling and grammar even (well... kinda) but at least break it up in paragraphs. that's really tough to read


the mac has advantages (os, software, plug and play) and the pc does (speed, 95% people use it)...

depends what you want to do. depends how much you care about which aspects of computing.

 

Point of FACT - If Microsoft ditched the x86 and in favor of Itanium, the x86 platform would be dead.

Linux may not be enough the keep it alive much beyond the critical mass of user transitions during the next OS upgrade cycle.

So it's perfectly legitimate to call an x86 machine like Dell crap, if you're talking Windows - the majority of the market.

Just like Linux, BeOS, Windows PPC can't be used to defend Apple hardware.

It is the OS (most used OS that is) that matters when you talk about PCs and Macs.

---

So ... Mr. Don't knock dell's machines. Its the OS on them that is crap.

What's next?

 

Well, that was nice.

If you're going to flame, please use something a little more clever. Sounding like you're in junior high school doesn't win you a lot of points around here. Even if you used the word "whom" (whether it was used correctly or not). At least Alex made some good points, and a valid argument (whether we agree with him or not).

Anyway, the reason we compare Apples to WinTels is that they are both computers. They both do very similar (often the same) thing. Most of the same parts. Similar software. Even Apple has acknowledged that WinTels are their competition in their "Switch" ads. They are comparative because they're competitive. It's been Macs vs. PCs for awhile now.

I'd been using Win98 for awhile myself. I'm using Win2000 now. My parents have WinXP, and personally, I hate it. My stepfather loves it, but he doesn't know a lot about computers. My friend's Mom, who never used a computer in her life, got an iMac and was very happy with it. She was doing all sorts of things on the first day. I had problems with Mac OS 8, but 9 was okay, and I love 10. Can't wait to get a new Mac with 10.2. Win98 gave me problems once a day, and Win2000 Pro isn't perfect either. No OS is. I don't really like Linux, too many hassles.

See I do a lot of multimedia. Audio/Video/Graphics type stuff. Web Design and PC upgrade/repairs on the side. Sure it's faster on a finely tuned WinTel, but it's so much easier on a Mac. If you're just gonna play games, buy a PS2 or (shudder) xBox.

Although fast, x86 processors aren't that great. They sacrifice a lot to achieve such high speeds. Yes, even AMD. They're hot, suck up way too much power, and they constantly fail or have problems. I know, G4s are hot and fail too, but not that bad. For those counting - P4s have a 100 or 133 FSB (it's Quad pumped), AMDs also have a 100 or 133 FSB (DDR, rising and falling). New G4s have a 167 FSB with DDR-RAM support. For all those b*tching, if DDR are can speed up a Celeron, and DDR400 can speed up a 266 Athlon, it can feed a G4. How many of you were the same people who b*tched because Apple didn't use DDR-RAM?

Though it would be nice if it used it better, instead of the bastardized version they use now.

See, M$ and Apple are both businesses. They both sell computers. They both do stupid, selfish things. But Macs are so much cooler and stable for what you can do. How many viruses do you find on Apples? And M$ is just plain evil. Evil!!! You're always gonna have people bad mouthing the other side, sometimes based on personal experiances. Sometimes, unfortunetly, for no reasons with no valid arguements (see above for examples).

Besides, how many times have you heard someone say "Macs suck", but they don't know why.

Besides, it's real world experiance, and performance, that matters. For that, Macs generally win. Sometimes. Linux is cool, too. But it's not always worth the trouble. My sister's friend told me so (please note sarcasm ).

 

>(8thDegreeSavage) Alex_ant your a total tool whom everyone hates.....please shut up.

Christina, I think your bashing talent belongs in the music network, not on the forums.

I would have to agree on this one. IF Dell had developed better software, most likely the PC world would be capable of taking over Apple.

But the Windoze OS is already infested with several bugs and constant updates. Windoze heXPee fixed that somewhat, but it is still far from perfect. And this is what is holding back the PC world from taking over everything.

The Apple OS is even closer to perfect. But since you will never find a perfect OS, you might as well choose the OS closest to perfect and farthest from inoperable.

The thing keeping Apple from taking over the PC world is the so-called "MHz myth" and the lack of faster memory. If Apple could solve these issues the PC world would eventually be no more.

For REAL competition in the world of computers, I would like to see what happens IF Apple/IBM merge and get better processors out the door, along with more DDR-RAM, while Dell/PCs try to perfect their OS and come as close as OS X.

 

Re: Re: Mindless PC MAC Rant!

Bah!

BeOS acheived much lower latency and faster user response, but speed is a very subjective word. Be was designed so that any action would receive an immediate response and with low latency as a priority. Put Be and OS X running the same CPU intensive task on the same hardware and it'd be about a draw.

And what you call bloat, I call feature rich. And thats not just spin.

OS X (read NeXT) was designed very differently from most OS's out there. Sure Unix is on the bottom, but almost everything that apps interact with is a NeXT invention. And these APIs and laguages were designed to be very dynamic and highly extensible.

Everything was designed with the idea of being dynamic. Method and feature reflection is everywhere and many things are runtime bound. Its this behavior that allows Services without a severe construct added on. Instead of being added on, its inherent to the way the OS, its APIs, and esp. its languages are designed (this is why only Java and Obj-C can be used to hit the APIs--Carbon is just a proxy between old and new).

This comes at the cost of bigger binaries and libraries and more things in memory. Thankfully, todays hardware allows this design to work without severe performance hits. But this is why OS X apparently likes RAM so much. The OS is able to stretch its legs and have to do less paging for what we would consider mundane tasks (switching programs, windows, etc.)

I avoid the word bloat because of its negative connotation. OS X's situation is anything BUT negative. And as hardware improves and becomes less relavent, OS X's situation will only improve.

We'll be seeing a similar situation as .Net slowly rolls out. Its got the same "issues" with dynamitism as Java's platform, Obj-C's platform(OS X). But .Net is being introduced later than the existing dynamic platforms and has the benifit of a faster mean of hardware available.

Taft

 

The might of MicroSoft on the x86 platform keeps it viable for OSs like Linux.

Heck even the silly little share Apple has on the PPC platform keeps the PPC viable as a computer platform for other OSs.

What would happen if Apple ditched the PPC?

Surely I doubt Linux or Amiga (yes they're still around) would be enough to keep the PPC alive for long as a development platform for these other OSs.

If MicroSoft decided to kill Windows x86 products, it really is doubtfull that Linux would be able to leverage their backoffice stength into a big enough push to keep the x86 alive for 10 more years as a desktop computer.

Linux would most likely be ported to the next processor instead of trying to be the known for saving the x86.

Anyways I thought Linux was supposed to be hardware independent, so saying the x86 is great because of Linux isn't saying much.

 

i'll be the first to disagree

Well somebody had to right? It wouldn't be a debate if we didn't

I am by no means an expert on CPU design, but I like to think I know enough to hold my own.

It's my understanding that the P4 (and to a certain extent) the Athlon are not very well designed chips. The P4 is a very very very badly designed chip - the Athlon as I understand it is quite a bit better, but as you see it suffers from a a similiar problem as the G4 - low clock speeds. AMD is dedicated to the Athlon however, and it has scaled very well, where Moto has two guys in a closet office designing G4 updates.

The P4 has an ungodly number of pipeline stages, and terrible branch prediction. It discards a very high amount of it's work resulting in it being very inefficent. The upside is that it scales to such high clock speeds (due to the long pipelines) that it can make up for all its mistakes very quickly.

The Athlon has fewer pipeline stages (but more than the G4, trying to keep pace w/Intel.) To scale they keep adding more and more, and shrinking the manufacturing process.

Basically if IBM has a 2ghz+ G5 be very very happy. Intel's next gen chip can barely scale to 1ghz now, imagine if Apple had a 1Ghz lead in the next gen chip race. Intel's next gen chip is supposed to be more like PowerPC in that it is RISC based instead of CISC like the Athlon and P4.

As another posted pointed out, the x86 architecture is quickly approaching a brick wall. Partially due to the fact they're not doing anything new, just making what they have faster. When they competely dedicate themselves to scaling and not worry about other enhancements to the core (like better SIMD, faster buses, SOI copper interconnects etc...) they're shooting themselves in the foot in the long run. If Apple can hang on for the long run, and IBM has a decent PPC behidn closed doors, they may come out way on top.

I'm just trying to point out the "other side of the fence" - as a PC user/repair guy for more than a few years I've learned to not be so gung ho about "wow... it's 2.8Ghz...".

Apple has some advantages right now... XP is a piece of crap (IMHO... I can't stand to use it). I know XP is faster at browsing etc... and it doesn't bother me. I find that I can do work on my Mac, and get more work done than all my PC buddies combined. They're always upgrading this card or fixing / replacing something. There is "quality" hardware for PCs, but they don't sell because people want the cheapest PC they can get. Only people who truly know what they are doing get the "quality parts" and we can all agree there are not enough people who know what they're doing in ANY field.

We don't have "Product Activation", "Hotmail advertisements", the horrid "Luna" interface "Windows Media Player XP". We also don't need a patch to be allowed to uninstall programs we don't like. Right now we're lucky.

I'm a "switcher"and I'm glad I did. I feel both platforms have ceratin advantages, but Apple seems to have a lot in it's favor right now. If not, why would I be here, at "MACrumors"?

 

At least I didn't call you names.

Or use any of the other methods reserved for handing newbies their heads, for starting with such a potentially flamable subject.

It would have been fun and entertaining... Even if it earned the ire of the moderators.

Actually it's quite amazing that you didn't get a sound thrashing.

Wouldn't have been me, I'm playing nice today.

Or at least trying to.

---

Heck I even disabled my signature in order not to offend those that deserve it.

 

if you do you a 'lot' of web design you're probably a hand-coder. can you explain how it's 'so much easier' to edit say, two dozen web pages using bbedit's floating windows (or the mac version of dreamweaver) vs. homesite tabbed windows... (or the pc version of dreamweaver). if you're a pure visual designer or a video editor, i can understand using a mac. why fix what isn't broken? but unless you're doing newbie stuff, macs (the available apps) are horrible at web design. i hate having to use two platforms when my preferred one is a mac.

king cobra - you're not even worth replying to, lol.

 

Lamer = Sun Baked

Gee...... aren't you a snot nosed punk ....... how quaint.......


P.S. Don't worry about writing style Wolf, you make some interesting points. I personally think there's a place in this world for both. The PC is definitely the system to have for gaming, while the Mac simply has the best Operating system on the market.

 

Could you get a little more condescending??? No, really, give it a shot.

I've done a 'lot' of web design for critical trading systems, and none of it was done using a visual designer. Unfortunately, none of it was done using a Mac either. I was stuck in a windows world, and I've got to tell you, I would have much preferred a Mac.

What it comes down to in the end is which platform you prefer to get work done in. Anymore, thats all that matters. Any program you can use on Windows, I can get for my Mac in one form or another. And when working with a lot of files (and I mean a 'lot') a tabbed view isn't much of a help. You need a solid directory structure or a project based editing tool.

Think of all the programs available for doing this task on a Mac...

BBEdit, Emacs, Dreamweaver, great Meta-html packages like WebObjects, Codewarrior and Servlets, even code editors that edit HTML well like JBuilder. And don't forget the abundance of command line tools that can batch edit and search files: Grep, awk, or even vi (probably the most powerful editor out there--if you can figure it out). And there are tons of third party apps that can enhance your Mac for a development environment. Everything from virtual desktops to drawers for easy file access.

And guess what?? You can get most of these on Windows, too. In the end its going to come down to which gives you the better user experience and which you can get around in better. OS X has propelled us into the land of geekiness and hardcore developing while still keeping us rooted in a beautifully designed interface. Thats a powerful combination.

My point is that anything you can do on a PC, I can do on my Mac. And I'd argue that I can do it better.

Taft