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Relative to their flagship phones.

In 2016 $769 bought you the base model of the best phone Apple offered, the iPhone 7 Plus. Today for only $20 dollars less you get the base model of the watered down version of the flagships with various compromises.

Peoples money doesn't go as far in the Apple store anymore so people are choosing not to visit, seems reasonable enough to me.
So no matter what the features are on the new "flagship" phone, no matter what the cost to build it, it has to be priced somewhere in the neighborhood of last years?

Which is it you want, basically the same amount of features for the same amount of money, or new tech and better
/more features for more money. You can't have it both ways.

If there was no X last year, no Xs or Xs Plus this year, and the XR was the new flagship phone, then would the price would be fine with you?
 
Relative to their flagship phones.

In 2016 $769 bought you the base model of the best phone Apple offered, the iPhone 7 Plus. Today for only $20 dollars less you get the base model of the watered down version of the flagships with various compromises.

Peoples money doesn't go as far in the Apple store anymore so people are choosing not to visit, seems reasonable enough to me.

But, in 2017, the iPhone 8 Plus was not the flagship phone (that was the iPhone X) and it sold for $799 compared to $749 for Xr (flagship being iPhone Xs). This is a better more analogous comparison.

Also, in 2016, the iPhone 7 Plus came with only 32GB storage in the $769 base model. The Xr has 64GB of storage. So, not a good comparison.
 
It seems a high MSRP worked out for the X last year and might still be working for the XS and XS Max this year, but I don't think the XR can maintain high sales when it's price is ranging between $750-900. I think you'll see increasing discounts on this model. Most customers that are going to spend that much likely decide to pay a little more to get a much better phone or if they want to actually spend less opt for a 7 or 8. The XR is in a bad spot and just not that great of a product for the price.
Then all of the reviewers and bloggers are wrong... The XR is in a great spot. I'm a medical student and cannot justify the additional $350 for the XS, and as it turns out, I also can't find any justification for me to pay $350 more for the XS, regardless of my financial situation. And I am not alone in that. You get a hell of a lot for $800. Other than 3D Touch, which Haptic Touch offers some of the functionality and will further increase over time, my XR is better in essentially every way vs my 7 Plus, and yet my 7 Plus was $850 2 years ago. The XR is quite an upgrade from a performance and camera alone, not to mention the bigger display, wireless charging, and Face ID. For what you are getting on the XR, it is nothing short of a flagship device and is less expensive than flagship iPhones from 2016.
 
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But, in 2017, the iPhone 8 Plus was not the flagship phone (that was the iPhone X) and it sold for $799 compared to $749 for Xr (flagship being iPhone Xs). This is a better more analogous comparison.

Also, in 2016, the iPhone 7 Plus came with only 32GB storage in the $769 base model. The Xr has 64GB of storage. So, not a good comparison.

Its a better comparison for Apple or somebody who is going to bat for them.

But to the average person they see that their $750 no longer buys them the best phone that Apple sells and don't want to pay the same price for a watered down version of the best one.
[doublepost=1544893535][/doublepost]
So no matter what the features are on the new "flagship" phone, no matter what the cost to build it, it has to be priced somewhere in the neighborhood of last years?

Which is it you want, basically the same amount of features for the same amount of money, or new tech and better
/more features for more money. You can't have it both ways.

If there was no X last year, no Xs or Xs Plus this year, and the XR was the new flagship phone, then would the price would be fine with you?

No it doesn't they can price it what they like and the market will decide if they want to buy it or not. It seems they have.
 
You keep comparing the price of the XL to the XS though. Why not compare it to the XS Max price?

As I mentioned, general confusion on your behalf, Please, re-read the previous posts that I was involved with discussion with the other poster before commenting, as what you’re saying above is _not_ accurate:

Hence this post already stated prior to the other poster:

I compared the XL, being it’s a direct competitor to the XS Max.



Regarding the Note, it comes with a stylus, if Apple ever decided to add pencil functionality to the XS Max you know you would have to buy it separately. How much is a pencil now 149? Hence, why the S9 plus is really the XS Max direct competitor imo.

If we’re creating hypotheticals, does it really matter how you classify competition just because Apple might add Apple Pencil support? When you look at the competition, it competes against the size of the phones, I wouldn’t say capabilities or features that are added-on are necessarily what makes it competitive, being a lot these smart phones offer the same functionality. Price is another subject on its own as already discussed.
 
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Its a better comparison for Apple or somebody who is going to bat for them.

But to the average person they see that their $750 no longer buys them the best phone that Apple sells and don't want to pay the same price for a watered down version of the best one.
[doublepost=1544893535][/doublepost]

No it doesn't they can price it what they like and the market will decide if they want to buy it or not. It seems they have.

So, by this logic, when Toyota started building the Lexus sedans and that became their new flagship, they should have sold it for the same price as the Camry.
 
You keep comparing the price of the XL to the XS though. Why not compare it to the XS Max price?

Regarding the Note, it comes with a stylus, if Apple ever decided to add pencil functionality to the XS Max you know you would have to buy it separately. How much is a pencil now 149? Hence, why the S9 plus is really the XS Max direct competitor imo.
Also, Samsung Note 9 and S9 come with fast chargers in the box. Apple could also do this, but require users to buy fast charging as an extra at $69.
 
So, by this logic, when Toyota started building the Lexus sedans and that became their new flagship, they should have sold it for the same price as the Camry.

No because nobody is talking about cars, or Toyota or any number of other digressions on to products that are completely different and have different levels of value in peoples lives.

A product is worth what people are willing to pay for it.

Argue and spin it any way you want it but if people wanted the iPhone XR it would be flying off the shelves, back ordered for weeks and Apple wouldn't be trying to ramp up sales with trade in offers.
 
Your 6s plus cost the same $749 as the XR, when it was released, only it came with 16GB storage instead of 64GB. That's some "insane price increase", eh?
iPhone 6 Plus $749 16GB
iPhone 6S plus $749 16GB
iPhone 7 plus $749 32GB
iPhone 8 plus $799 64GB
iPhone XR $749 64GB
The problem is XR has a lot of corner cutting. It is like the iPhone SE to the iPhone 6s. And the SE was $449 for 64GB.
 
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Apple first needs people to own their devices to use their services for the most part. So they do care about unit sales. More unit sales = more potential customers to subscribe to the services.
I didn't say Apple didn't care about unit sales in an absolute sense. But it's clear with services revenue growing, absolute iphone unit sales will play less of a role in the revenue and profits.(imo)
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I’m sure it’s very much the same but I view this from a consumers perspective as I have zero financial interest in Apple as a company. I’m sure you make a decent amount of money off them being a shareholder as you clearly admire their every move, but as someone who buys their stuff only, it’s depressing to see them take the piss.

If they were honest and admitted the XS is not aimed at the core consumer and is more a luxury product, then I might understand it better. However it’s marketed as the ‘flagship’ iPhone for everybody and the price makes it very much the opposite. I would be happy if they continued with the XR and made sure it was more closely matched to the XS so those of us are able to enjoy the features we’ve been asking for for years. The fact I felt an 8+ was better than an XR this year sums up my feelings currently.
The iphone Xs max is expensive, but not the most expensive phone out there. People's affordability varies, and I'm not clear the phone is marketed for "everybody". The line of affordability and value vs price is different for all of us. Some people won't buy a $500 phone. This isn't about who owns AAPL or not.

I'm not debating the iphone Xs max is expensive. I'm debating the notion the apple raised the price on the Xs Max given there is no equivalent model to compare it to.
 
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So, by this logic, when Toyota started building the Lexus sedans and that became their new flagship, they should have sold it for the same price as the Camry.
Lexus was marketed as Toyotas luxury brand and it was a clear offshoot to the main company. The iPhone X was not marketed as a luxury brand and was unveiled under the same umbrella as all the other devices. Comparing cars or even houses like has been put forward on this thread, to smartphones is a rather slippery slope. The smartphone market is much more contained in terms of its pricing, not to mention an iPhone is a throwaway product effectively and unlike investments or status symbol products.
 
Sure I do. Here. Foxconn assembles phones for Huawei and Xiaomi. Huawei alone sells more smartphones than Apple. Then there is a fact that Foxconn manufactures way more products than just smartphones. Its customer list includes Amazon, Google, Acer, Cisco, Dell and HP.
That article doesn't say what you are inferring. In fact you don't know what the manufacturing costs are per phone for the various models. Maybe Foxconn makes from the manufacture of one iphone Xs max of what it makes from manufacturing 10 other phones.
 
Lexus was marketed as Toyotas luxury brand and it was a clear offshoot to the main company. The iPhone X was not marketed as a luxury brand and was unveiled under the same umbrella as all the other devices. Comparing cars or even houses like has been put forward on this thread, to smartphones is a rather slippery slope. The smartphone market is much much contained in terms of its pricing, not to mention an iPhone is a throwaway product effectively and unlike investments or status symbol products.


Oh there are a lot of people on here protecting their investments. ;)

Worried Apple stock holders all over the place in full damage limitation mode.
 
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That article doesn't say what you are inferring. In fact you don't know what the manufacturing costs are per phone for the various models. Maybe Foxconn makes from the manufacture of one iphone Xs max of what it makes from manufacturing 10 other phones.
So you are implying that Apple pays more for assembling their phones than anyone else. Brilliant. Is it because XR has cameras than other modern phones? Or Tim Cook is just a sucker?
 
That is like selling a car with the best steam engine on the market
That’s a stupid analogy. But ok.
LCD has advantages over OLED. as does OLED does over LCD.

LCD has a backlight, and are in most cases more power efficient. The XR has the best battery life of all the new iPhones with it being the cheapest option. LCD can sometimes get brighter too, depending on the panel.

OLED, which pushes individual pixels, can be more power hungry, and can sometimes suffer burn in. The viewing angles on OLED are sometimes not as good as LCD, where you can sometimes see a blue shift.
 
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No because nobody is talking about cars, or Toyota or any number of other digressions on to products that are completely different and have different levels of value in peoples lives.

A product is worth what people are willing to pay for it.

Argue and spin it any way you want it but if people wanted the iPhone XR it would be flying off the shelves, back ordered for weeks and Apple wouldn't be trying to ramp up sales with trade in offers.

Well, your arguments are just not logical. They fail in comparison with like type products (iPhone 8 plus vs iPhone Xr), and they fail with comparison to other products (infamous car analogy). Even when you mentioned the iPhone 7 Plus, you failed to recognize the difference in base storage.

You have concluded that the Xr is a flop for Apple because it is not back ordered, but again your logic fails. In the old days, Apple would release only one new phone every year, so all sales were concentrated into one make and model. They have diversified the line up with more sizes, makes, colors and models. So, they are less likely to encounter some of the old production bottlenecks of the past. Also, Apple is purposely pursuing a strategy of fewer units at higher unit pricing. None of us are in a position to judge if this is a wise business decision at this time.....perhaps it is a mistake.....maybe it will work out.
 
Lexus was marketed as Toyotas luxury brand and it was a clear offshoot to the main company. The iPhone X was not marketed as a luxury brand and was unveiled under the same umbrella as all the other devices. Comparing cars or even houses like has been put forward on this thread, to smartphones is a rather slippery slope. The smartphone market is much more contained in terms of its pricing, not to mention an iPhone is a throwaway product effectively and unlike investments or status symbol products.
Right. People try to draw phone analogies using cars. They never work because cars are completely different from phones.

iPhone is a product aimed at the general public. They want everyone, rich or poor, to pay a certain amount per month to get a new iPhone every one or two years. At a $650 to $800 pricepoint, Apple can say "this is a flagship device which is of good quality with forward thinking features and you'll want to upgrade in two years". But the iPhone XS in particular is not $200 better than the Pixel 3 which is not $300 better than the OnePlus 6T. So now there's a hole at the $650 price point because the currently $650 iPhone is no longer a flagship (the 8/8+ are just not worth buying over a 7/7+). Add to that, there's nothing on the XS, XS Max that wasn't already developed for the X. Their cameras are as bad as the X, FaceID is pretty unreliable, and there isn't a premium phone in the small screen size anymore. Come on, Apple.

I guess I'm trying to reiterate what you're saying here. Apple can be the Lexus of cell phones, but not everyone is going to buy the Lexus of cell phones. So what does that mean? Overpriced phones to increase profit margins.
 
That’s a stupid analogy. But ok.
LCD has advantages over OLED. as does OLED does over LCD.

LCD has a backlight, and are in most cases more power efficient. The XR has the best battery life of all the new iPhones with it being the cheapest option. LCD can sometimes get brighter too, depending on the panel.

OLED, which pushes individual pixels, can be more power hungry, and can sometimes suffer burn in. The viewing angles on OLED are sometimes not as good as LCD, where you can sometimes see a blue shift.
Yes (despite some being debatable, oled consumption depends on white content and lcd view angles are a lot worse than oled screens) but oled has one clear advantage.
It has the best quality, in phones and in TVs. That is why it is used on flagship phones and on flagship TVs.
 
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The iphone Xs max is expensive, but not the most expensive phone out there. People's affordability varies, and I'm not clear the phone is marketed for "everybody". The line of affordability and value vs price is different for all of us. Some people won't buy a $500 phone. This isn't about who owns AAPL or not.

I'm not debating the iphone Xs max is expensive. I'm debating the notion the apple raised the price on the Xs Max given there is no equivalent model to compare it to.
You’re right it’s bloody expensive and I hope they kill that price point with fire in future years. As far as this not being about AAPL, well I made that point do my post was about that. Whether anybody feels differently to me is totally irrelevant to me as I brought that up. I just think a consumer thinks very differently to somebody who also has a financial interest in the company they are willing to defend to the death. That was the crux of my point.

You are right though, the value we place on our iPhones is different for everybody. We may argue over pricing and aesthetics, or even perceived status even if that’s delusional, but the fact remains, iPhones all do the same thing. That’s the impact of market saturation I suppose.
 
I couldn’t and still can’t get my head around why they made and released the XR, it’s way over priced, if there was going to be a cheaper version why not just drop the price of the iPhone 8.

Mainly to get people to switch off of the home button and onto Face ID, but do it at a not so extreme price point. It is actually the best phone Apple has ever made when you factor in price. It has the battery life that folks want, a huge screen, and a great camera. I've got an XS, but in practice I might actually prefer the XR camera because I like portrait mode and the XR executes that better in low light situations than the XS. Since low light situations are basically the only time my phone camera fails to take a good picture, that is a meaningful advantage for me. I'm not swapping and downgrading. But I would recommend to everyone at this point to get the XR over the XS.
 
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OLED, which pushes individual pixels, can be more power hungry, and can sometimes suffer burn in. The viewing angles on OLED are sometimes not as good as LCD, where you can sometimes see a blue shift.
I can understand why people would be concerned about viewing angles with tvs. However I think it is a non issue with smartphones. Why would someone hold a phone in anything other than ideal? Phone approx perpendicular to line of sight.
 
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Mainly to get people to switch off of the home button and onto Face ID, but do it at a not so extreme price point. It is actually the best phone Apple has ever made when you factor in price. It has the battery life that folks want, a huge screen, and a great camera. I've got an XS, but in practice I might actually prefer the XR camera because I like portrait mode and the XR executes that better in low light situations than the XS. Since low light situations are basically the only time my phone camera fails to take a good picture, that is a meaningful advantage for me. I'm not swapping and downgrading. But I would recommend to everyone at this point to get the XR over the XS.

The problem I had when I upgraded a couple of months back was I could get an 8+ on a much better deal than the XR. I’ve played around with the XR and agree it’s a treat phone, but when the 8+ was still available and marked down, it just couldn’t compete for me. It’s all about what we value I suppose and don’t get me wrong I could afford an XS Max if I really felt it was worth the money!
 
That’s a stupid analogy. But ok.
LCD has advantages over OLED. as does OLED does over LCD.

LCD has a backlight, and are in most cases more power efficient. The XR has the best battery life of all the new iPhones with it being the cheapest option. LCD can sometimes get brighter too, depending on the panel.

OLED, which pushes individual pixels, can be more power hungry, and can sometimes suffer burn in. The viewing angles on OLED are sometimes not as good as LCD, where you can sometimes see a blue shift.


The Apple LCDs are very good, hard to really distinguish much difference between them and the OLED for most I think so that's fair enough.

The problem Apple has got is that the Xr is an actual downgrade in some respects to the older phones.

My girlfriend for instance has the 7 Plus she uses the optical zoom fairly regularly but she would like to upgrade her phone, she has the choice of the 8 Plus which isn't much of an upgrade at something like £50 more than she paid for her 7 Plus, the Xr at the same price but she would have to give up the optical zoom or pay the £350 premium and get the Xs. I think she's just going to hold on to her 7 Plus because she doesn't find any of those options appealing.

If you have to give up certain features/functionality or pay a hefty premium its not worth it for a lot of people.
 
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The problem I had when I upgraded a couple of months back was I could get an 8+ on a much better deal than the XR. I’ve played around with the XR and agree it’s a treat phone, but when the 8+ was still available and marked down, it just couldn’t compete for me. It’s all about what we value I suppose and don’t get me wrong I could afford an XS Max if I really felt it was worth the money!

Both good phones. I'm going to guess that eventual resale value of the XR over 8+ would cover most of the upfront cost difference. But with the 8+ being the last and best of the "home button" iPhones, you might find resale value for that phone quite high in two years.

Anyway, Apple will sell a lot of iPhones. Stock price has already tanked around 20%, so soft sales is now priced in. Maybe best for Apple that they settle in on "only" selling 175 million iPhones a year. That would certainly be less challenging from a supply chain prospective. And Apple could focus on other aspects of the business.
 
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