What a weird discussion. I run local LLMs on my Macs. 192 GB is not enough. “Enough” would be a very large number that I could not afford. The idea that 64GB is overkill made me chuckle aloud.
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Mini M4 Pro vs Studio M2 Max?
- Thread starter Black Diesel
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Somehow I think that photo management and editing, which is the context of that statement, has a different set of requirements to running obese LLMs locally…
How big are the photos needing to be if you need more than 192GB of RAM‽
I know little about photo editing, but I assume the work is similar in the sense that you can scale up the work if the machine will allow it. The use of generative AI in image processing is exploding, and I know digital artists who run Stable Diffusion locally (which I also do and which will also eat up as much RAM as you are capable of feeding it). If I were buying a machine that I intended to use professionally for the next FIVE years (take a look at what generative image models could do only TWO years ago), on a Mac on which you cannot upgrade RAM, I would not take any chances on a machine that already looks underpowered to me.
But obviously if you’re really sure that the machine you buy doesn’t require this type of future proofing (an attitude I would urge any creative to reconsider based on my AI work), get that bad boy. RAM ain’t cheap.
Hoping for some help in this department from some of you that know a lot more about this than I do. I happened to stumble upon this thread as I am looking at these exact models for a necessary upgrade. I currently have a 2019 MacBook Pro 8gb RAM with touch bar model connected to a 35" monitor.
I started doing website and logo design a while back and my MBP just cant handle even web based design anymore. It sounds like a jet engine, runs hot and lags. I also day trade and would like to run Parallels with some trading software. I am ready to make a purchase but want to make sure I make the right one.
I am looking for either a Mac Studio or the new Mac mini (m4 pro?) and would like a 2nd monitor for trading (maybe even a 3rd?). I know anything is going to be a huge upgrade over my current set up, but I'd love some direction on what would be a good spec (unified memory, CPU/GPU, etc...) for me to run these applications. A little future proofing would be great as well.
note: I did talk to a few people at Apple and unfortunately I got different answers from all of them. Hoping the internet can provide me with some clarity 😂.
Thank you!
I started doing website and logo design a while back and my MBP just cant handle even web based design anymore. It sounds like a jet engine, runs hot and lags. I also day trade and would like to run Parallels with some trading software. I am ready to make a purchase but want to make sure I make the right one.
I am looking for either a Mac Studio or the new Mac mini (m4 pro?) and would like a 2nd monitor for trading (maybe even a 3rd?). I know anything is going to be a huge upgrade over my current set up, but I'd love some direction on what would be a good spec (unified memory, CPU/GPU, etc...) for me to run these applications. A little future proofing would be great as well.
note: I did talk to a few people at Apple and unfortunately I got different answers from all of them. Hoping the internet can provide me with some clarity 😂.
Thank you!
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As a general principle, get as much RAM as you can justify purchasing. Maxing out my 2012 MacBook Air to 8GB let me use it for 12 years! Unless you're doing RAM intensive tasks, like if you think you're going want to be running large local AI models, or rely on running VMs then sure. You need as much RAM as you can get. That is not everyone's reality though!
The way I see it, you'll want the most machine you can afford, as when you're running a VM, you're essentially running two machines at the same time so you'll want a lot of RAM so you can allocate enough to the VM. If it were me, I'd go for the M4 Pro. I reckon I'd want to aim for 48GB, and would go for the 64GB if I could afford it. I'd probably want more CPU cores too, as the VM will need to use a few.
Basically, buy the best you can justify the money on, so it'll remain viable longer. Prioritise RAM over disk space, and you should get a good setup.
Mac Mini Pro with 1 TB & 64 GB RAM. Half a TB drive seems too big a long term risk. No need for bigger than 1 TB because Thunderbolt 5 externals will allow a Mac Mini to use external drives that are faster than many M processor internal drives are operating at now. Apple's internal drive prices over 1 TB are very overpriced. A 2 TB drive is available, but IMO RAM is more important for long term ownership.
I completely agree with you. I try to configure a Mac mini with M4 Pro: 12-core CPU, 16-core GPU, 48 GB RAM, and 1TB SSD. It costs $1,999. If Apple keeps the pricing of Mac Studio unchanged, an entry-level M4 Max Mac Studio should cost the same. It will have 14-core CPU, 32-core GPU, 36 GB RAM, 1TB SSD, and at least one more Thunderbolt 5 port than Mac mini. This is based on the configuration of the base M4 Max 14" MacBook Pro.
But we do not know what Apple will do with configurations.
I'll provide an example of Apple changing configurations.
Previously with the M3 MacBook Pros, one could buy a less Max CPU which has less cores. And one could increase its RAM to 96 GB. If we presume that the M4 Pro chip in the MacBook now, is as fast as the previous lesser cored Max Pro chip, then one might have expected to be able to buy a MacBook Pro with for instance 64 GB of RAM. But now, that option is capped at 48 GB of RAM. With AI, it is effectively 40 GB of RAM. So to get 64 GB of RAM, one has to buy the full Max chip.
So here are the price in the USA for two options of MacBook Pros:
Using 14" MacBook Pros:
Apple M4 Pro chip with 14‑core CPU, 20‑core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine
1 TB / 48GB RAM $US 2,799.00 ($US2,800)
To get 64 GB RAM, it will cost $US3,899.00 ($US3,900). So if the bottleneck is RAM, not CPU, the cost of 24GB of RAM costs $US1,100. $1,100/$2,800 = 39%. So it increase the RAM by 24 GB costs an extra 40% of the whole computer's price.
Meanwhile, a Mac Mini Pro with the same CPU as the 14" MacBook Pro can be bought with 64 GB of RAM. Configured similarly with a 1 TB drive, its price is: $US2,399.00 ($US 2,400).
Now, you do not get a keyboard or a monitor with the Mac Mini. And no battery either. And no track pad. Or mouse. But you do get a power cord. And there is no charger bundled with it either. So this configuration of the mini is likely very profitable for Apple. But to get 64 GB RAM, it's a lot cheaper to get a Mini than a MacBook Max at $3,900, or an extra $1,500. The MacBook Max with 64 GB RAM is therefor 40% more expensive. Incidentally a 15" MacBook Air 0.5 TB/16 GB RAM refurb from Apple is $1,280! Round about that difference!!
So who knows how Apple will configure the Studios? They may well cap the memory on the Pro Max models and force buyers to buy an Ultra if they want for instance, over 48 GB of RAM.
I suspect the better value in the whole lot of options is a 1 TB / 48 GB MacBook Pro at $2,800. Which will likely be on discount at some retailers next year I presume. Shame Apple about not offering it with 64 GB RAM.
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Is waiting for the M4 Studio out of the question? I'm in a similar boat, and just very very annoyed by how Apple treats power users:
Never in my life did I feel regret from ordering too much ram. That doesn't mean people should just blindly spend $2,000 on 192GB if possible but what it means is anytime I ever had to make a decision to spend extra $$ on the next level up I always was glad I did. You'll be far more annoyed you didn't get enough over the former.
Charles Rolls said the quality is remembered well after the price is forgotten.
But if one buys a MacBook Pro Max 14" that costs $3,900, and then goes to 128 GB, you're paying $4,800 dollars. That's $2,000 more than the 48 GB Pro. Is 80 GB or RAM really worth $2,000more than a Pro with 48 GB RAM? Almost make sense to buy an upgrade to a 2TB drive and let it virtualise.
Results on GeekBench for 14/20 core M4 Pro show a metal score of about 111,000, a bit short of the M2 Max.
As far as the Studios for next year, I reckon there's a chance they may be M5s. The good news for all is that Thunderbolt 5 is going to be the norm.
No, you didn't, but it sounds like it. Just register at blackmagic forums and ask there. They are going to tell you what people here are telling you:
1. You don't need 8K Raw
2. M2 Max or M4 Pro is not going to make much of a difference
3. You're a beginner and the only thing thats going to bog you down is your beginner skill set (possibly for years to come)
There are people who did your decision analysis (whatever the crap that means in the context of a single Mac) and bought an Intel Mac Pro, and some of them thought this machine is going to be future proof. How did that turn out? You buy the performance you need today and if you need more performance a year from now, or two years from now or whenever, you upgrade to a machine that gives you the performance you need at this point. Future proofing is idiotic, because it doesn't work.
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Funnily enough, the 2009 Intel Mac Pro 4,1 and the 2010 5,1 were still very popular even in 2019. And many still use them. They used Intel and they did last a long time.
You must be working for Apple! Buy for now, and sell it in 18 months time. For half what it cost you ... that's what Apple is counting on! Apple is trying to achieve Microsoft and Adobe's rental business model. Only they are doing it via un-upgradable hardware.
Apple would really like everyone to rent a computer, and just change it over every 18 months, and at that time, increase the rent a bit more. However if Apple did make that their business model, suddenly their hardware would become easy for Apple to upgrade when its returned to Apple after its rental period ...
With a PC though, in 18 months time, you can change the RAM sims and increase the RAM by 4 times, and add a drive of 2 or 4 TB, without much cost at all.
With Apple, we are forced to consider the future, because the only upgrade Apple offers us, is to buy a replacement computer. And since an Apple computer will be supported for 7 years, it might be sensible to plan to use it for at least 5. And if one considers sustainability and the waste in throwing computers away, an 18 months plan is outrageous.
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Yes but thats why I stated "anytime I ever had to make a decision to spend extra $$ on the next level up"
Like I said I don't mean blindly max out the configuration if it's available. To me 64GB would be the next level up from 48GB. I am not advocating one would need 64GB in that case.... I just mean if you are on the fence between two configurations of memory for your use case you're not going to regret the purchase up then when it's smaller difference like $200 in this case(or I at least have never in my life regretted it).
1. Tell that to my friends at Redbull Media that I'm shooting with as they request that format all the time. And you would be really stupid not to shoot it for something that needs to be heavily stabilized. I guess some would prefer to shoot 4k and by the time you are done you'll be left with 1080p or less...sorry, not acceptable to the client.
2. Maybe, but we'll find out soon
3. Luckily for me it won't take years to learn since I've been shooting professionally for decades and it won't take me more than a few months to get more polished in Resolve once I have a machine that can handle it without bogging.
Claiming the M2 Max is obsolete owing to the new chip being faster is hyperbole at best. For your use the new chip apparently fits better than the M2 Max. Terrific. M2 Max Studio is still viable for others. Whether it’s better to wait until the M4 Max makes it into the Studio is a decision that some are making. YMMV.
Load some 60 MP filed on your wife's M1 Air and see how “stunningly capable” it is. The OP needs a lot more grunt that your use cases. I have the highest cpu spec M1 Air with 16gb ram. Those files bring me back to i5 days and spinners.
I would argue that 60MP files aren’t a typical use case for most but everyone uses their Mac differently, so if that’s your daily workflow, then I guess your observation is fair. That being the case, however, you definitely bought the wrong machine. You should have gone with M1Max or Ultra with a boatload of RAM for that type of thing - 60MP files are a pro or a serious hobbyist workflow imho.
Also OP said he was on an Intel Mac, so in most cases an Apple silicon system would seem dramatically better. At least that’s been my observation - even with muiticam 4K video which I would have never expected a base spec. Air to deliver. Again - I use my Macs differently to you, so I was really only speaking to my personal experience.
Even an iPhone 14 Pro has a 48 MP sensor. Lots of photo files exceed 48 MP too ... and pu them into a photo app and add a layer ... the files get big. And then there's stacking software, landscape modes ( which is a form of stacking ) and then digital cameras ... plus later model phones than a 14 ...
Fair comment but I’m usually pretty good at spec'ing my computers. I shoot m43 and the Air was great until, unforeseen by me, AI started growing in use and I jumped on the bandwagon. I happen to have an A7cr on loan for a week - 60mp images. The OP is a photographer, uses the same app, Lightroom, that I use. I’m merely suggesting he should consider decisions he might make that could materially affect performance. AI slowed the Air down but it was tolerable. However that combined with a move to a 60mp camera would require an associated computer upgrade.
Substantially larger MP sensors are where photography is these days. It’s no longer uncommon to find 60mp sensors in new introductions. Unfortunately for the industry, smartphones caused a massive adjustment. Fortunately for photographers, we get far more capable cameras these days.
Agree. Been using a 15 Pro Max, but the issue for me with these images is filesize and storage, no the ability of the machine to manipulate them. As I said, the 8GB M1 Air seems to handle them and 4K ProRes video pretty well, so a higher spec. machine should cruise through them (also have an M1 Pro which makes light of anything I've thrown at it.
Look - I'm not saying don't spec. a machine up if budget allows, it's just on these forums, I've been seeing a culture of future-proofing and overspeccing leading to a lit of wasted cash. When I built my M1Pro in 2021, the advice on the forums was make sure to get 32GB RAM for future-proofing and performance reasons. I can tell you hand on heart, it would have been a total waste of money. I run Office apps, tons of tabs, edit 4K Multicam, use Logic Pro, use Parallels for an 8GB Windows 11 Pro instance, Teams/Zoom, Mail, Outlook, massive Excel, files, 400gb Photo Library, 50GB DevonThink database etc. This machine cruises it. 32GB would have been a waste.
Now - I'd like more SSD space and that's going to force the upgrade, but not RAM. Sure Apple Intelligence might change that in a couple of years, but by then this machine will be 5-6 years old and I'll be itching to change anyway. I doubt extra RAM would be the trigger as much as 'new shiny Apple stuff'.
Again, budget no object, then go for it.
Hello, this is my first post here seeking opinions and suggestions.
I'm a photo, and now video hobbyist currently using a 2011 Mac Mini 10.13.6 no longer supported by Nikon's current loading and editing software.
I've upgraded from a Nikon D4 to the Z9 which can shoot 12bit 8K 60 FPS internally which I'm told would require DaVinci Resolve Studio. Presently I'm shooting in 4K deleting unwanted scenes in camera and simply filling memory cards.
With my season beginning I was giving up on an M4 Studio release and about to purchase the basic M2 Studio which has favorable reviews with Z9 users. Generally the current Studio would be overkill for my needs except it seems to be the only Apple product that refers to 8K content. Or am I wrong?
Should I be considering spec'ing up an M4 Mini Pro?
Thanks
m-dB
I'm a photo, and now video hobbyist currently using a 2011 Mac Mini 10.13.6 no longer supported by Nikon's current loading and editing software.
I've upgraded from a Nikon D4 to the Z9 which can shoot 12bit 8K 60 FPS internally which I'm told would require DaVinci Resolve Studio. Presently I'm shooting in 4K deleting unwanted scenes in camera and simply filling memory cards.
With my season beginning I was giving up on an M4 Studio release and about to purchase the basic M2 Studio which has favorable reviews with Z9 users. Generally the current Studio would be overkill for my needs except it seems to be the only Apple product that refers to 8K content. Or am I wrong?
Should I be considering spec'ing up an M4 Mini Pro?
Thanks
m-dB