Minnesota and Arizona Bills Aim to Let Developers Skirt Apple's In-App Purchase Rules

[I7guy]

I guarantee you if I asked my mom — and I’d consider her pretty close to the median in tech literacy — right now how to cancel a subscription that’s billed through the App Store, she wouldn’t know. If I asked her to find it, she probably wouldn’t be able to for quite some time because the way to get there doesn’t actually make sense. She would Google it.

Again, “all your subscriptions in one place” wouldn’t have to go away. This would enable developers to allow cancelling subscriptions directly within an app, which again is where most users would likely expect such functionality to be available. You look for a redo button next to the undo button. You look for a paste button next to the copy button. You look for an unsubscribe button next to where you tapped the subscribe button. This is UI/UX common sense, if you can learn how to look past your own nose.

It’s long, long been a practice for companies providing a subscription service to make it difficult, obscure, or annoying to cancel a subscription, which is probably part of why AOL still had over two million dial-up subscribers in 2015. Apple primarily chooses “obscure,” but it’s no less sleazy (especially given recent rampant App Store scam subscription apps). Making it difficult/obscure/annoying to cancel is not how I’d like to operate — it gives me more incentive to make users want to stay, rather than forget to cancel — but Apple currently gives me no choice.

I disagree with your premise that by Apple putting the subscriptions where they did was to make it difficult to cancel. I also believe there are many questions asked of the entire Apple infrastructure on google everyday, because it's people don't read the manual.

I googled "how to cancel an apple subscription", there is nothing hidden about the way Apple implemented this and I'm sure its documented in the ios 14 release guide.

 

[Rob_2811]

Nope, the market should decide. I guess we have a fundamental difference in that I believe that Apple with a minority position in the market should regulate it's business as it sees fit, and let the market decide if Apples business is viable, while you believe in governmental regulation.

That's okay, horses for courses.

Nah.

Governmental regulation is a necesary evil. You can't have organisations behaving with complete impunity becaue they cut out line and cause people harm and then they need hauling back into line like the banks in 2008

 

[Alan Wynn]

Devs also want subscription for a flashlight app. Are users that stupid?

What does this have to do with my point? For that matter, what does this have to do with anything in this discussion?

 

[I7guy]

Nah.

Governmental regulation is a necesary evil. You can't have organisations behaving with complete impunity becaue they cut out line and cause people harm and then they need hauling back into line like the banks in 2008

I agree if Apple did behave as if it owned the world. But it doesn't. It's iphone business model is reasonable and customary. The consumers have benefited overall. So don't compare Apple with the banks, where they were able to play both sides of a customer unbeknown to a customer. These "analogies" that have nothing to do with Apple.

Now you are not going to convince me, you have to convince the lawmakers to follow through, the court system to accept the verdict and the Supreme Court to ignore the appeal. That is your target audience, and once all of that happens, Apple will be knocked down a peg or two.

 

[Alan Wynn]

Governmental regulation is a necesary evil. You can't have organisations behaving with complete impunity becaue they cut out line and cause people harm and then they need hauling back into line like the banks in 2008

There is healthy competition in this space. If users wanted what you want, they could buy Linux phones, Android OSP phones or even regular Android phones. In almost every country in the world, iOS holds under 50% (and usually under 20%). Apple has competition in every market it serves.

 

[jonblatho]

I disagree with your premise that by Apple putting the subscriptions where they did was to make it difficult to cancel. I also believe there are many questions asked of the entire Apple infrastructure on google everyday, because it's people don't read the manual.

I googled "how to cancel an apple subscription", there is nothing hidden about the way Apple implemented this and I'm sure its documented in the ios 14 release guide.

I’m old enough to remember when Apple made it a goal to implement common features in such a way that you didn’t even need to ask or consult a guide on how to do it, because the way to do it was easy to discover and made sense.

I’m 24.

 

[I7guy]

I’m old enough to remember when Apple made it a goal to implement common features in such a way that you didn’t even need to ask or consult a guide on how to do it, because the way to do it was easy to discover and made sense.

I’m 24.

That era ended with ios 4. When I got my first ipad, I went to apple school to learn how to use it. Then I showed my wife and kids. Somebody has teach you first. And whether family, friend, Apple, MacRumors forum or self-discovery, nothing is that intuitive, that isn't a standard (like a light switch).

 

[Rob_2811]

I agree if Apple did behave as if it owned the world. But it doesn't. It's iphone business model is reasonable and customary. The consumers have benefited overall. So don't compare Apple with the banks, where they were able to play both sides of a customer unbeknown to a customer. These "analogies" that have nothing to do with Apple.

Now you are not going to convince me, you have to convince the lawmakers to follow through, the court system to accept the verdict and the Supreme Court to ignore the appeal. That is your target audience, and once all of that happens, Apple will be knocked down a peg or two.

No of course i'm not but then regulation wouldn't be good for your share value would it

 

[jonblatho]

That era ended with ios 4. When I got my first ipad, I went to apple school to learn how to use it. Then I showed my wife and kids. Somebody has teach you first. And whether family, friend, Apple, MacRumors forum or self-discovery, nothing is that intuitive, that isn't a standard (like a light switch).

That doesn’t mean that a feature like cancelling a subscription should be left in an obscure location only. And you can tell that Apple knows it’s in an obscure location, because they keep changing the path to get there, making it one step simpler every now and again. They just don’t want to make it too easy. Again, that’s where sleaze comes in.

Again, if you care about looking at all your subscriptions in one place, great, go to the App Store to cancel; I’m not saying that has to go away. I just want to also allow users to cancel directly in my app, which again is where most users would likely look first when they decide to cancel.

 

[I7guy]

No of course i'm not but then regulation wouldn't be good for your share value would it

First off, don’t you worry about my portfolio.

Do “you” (generic you) want to be the politician that was accused of crippling America big tech?

It’s one thing to regulate a bank to ensure they are not playing fast and loose with your deposits, it’s another thing to regulate an minority by market share business whose business model is good service and word of mouth.

 

[Rob_2811]

Do “you” (generic you) want to be the politician that was accused of crippling America big tech?

It’s one thing to regulate a bank to ensure they are not playing fast and loose with your deposits, it’s another thing to regulate an minority by market share business whose business model is good service and word of mouth.

Yeah I think there is a huge appetite both in North America and Europe to regulate big tech. You don't end up under the amount of scrutiny and investigation that Apple are if everybody is happy. There have been numerous complaints about their app store policies.

The kind of regulation being explored wouldn't cripple anything other that big techs ability for exorbitant rent seeking and to use their platforms to hobble the competition.

Sounds good.

 

[I7guy]

Yeah I think there is a huge appetite both in North America and Europe to regulate big tech. You don't end up under the amount of scrutiny and investigation that Apple are if everybody is happy. There have been numerous complaints about their app store policies.

The kind of regulation being explored wouldn't cripple anything other that big techs ability for exorbitant rent seeking and to use their platforms to hobble the competition.

Sounds good.

This may not happen the way you think, and I hope you will be able to contain your disappointment.

"Everybody being happy" with Apple is a straw-man. There is no such thing. Should Ford be regulated and forced to limit their profits because consumers complain the prices are too high?

Big tech should be able to rent-seek as high as the market will allow, since using Apple as an example, being in their ecosystem is strictly voluntary and opt-in.

It's akin to going into a Bugatti dealer and complaining about the price of their cars.

Bad idea. When government gets involved usually consumers and the companies lose.

 

[Rob_2811]

This may not happen the way you think, and I hope you will be able to contain your disappointment.

"Everybody being happy" with Apple is a straw-man. There is no such thing. Should Ford be regulated and forced to limit their profits because consumers complain the prices are too high?

Big tech should be able to rent-seek as high as the market will allow, since using Apple as an example, being in their ecosystem is strictly voluntary and opt-in.

It's akin to going into a Bugatti dealer and complaining about the price of their cars.

Bad idea. When government gets involved usually consumers and the companies lose.

I didn't say everyone will be happy. I'm not sure where you have got that from.

 

[I7guy]

I didn't say everyone will be happy. I'm not sure where you have got that from.

Someone mentioned about states getting in the middle of interstate commerce, which is a federal government purvue. I remember that from history lessons in school and hope someone else would chime in about this.

 

[gregmancuso]

There is a one-word refutation for your assertion that it is - somehow, in some way - impossible to sell or install a non-Apple approved app: jailbreak.

It’s not even necessary to jailbreak. That just allows install on non vetted or unapproved apps.

You can already sell outside the App Store today. Hell, even Epic does it. App is free to download (no fees to Apple). App is “sold” via other platforms (using Epic: vbucks purchased on web site, game console, gift card, etc (fees paid to Epic, Sony, MS, retailer, etc. ). App or app assets are fully usable on iOS (no fees to Apple). apple is paid when and only when the purchase happened from iOS app.

Microsoft sells Office365 via all sorts of platforms (corporate accounts, office.com, IAP). Doesn’t matter how I buy it, I can use it on all platforms. Apple gets paid if I use an App Store subscription, and only then. Yet I can use that subscription anywhere, including a PC version of Office installed in a Window VM.

I admit I have not read the bill in full, but the summary in the article implies this is more with IAP fees that with bypassing the App Store for install. In that regard this really is legislating cybersquatting. “Apple, you must let me sell my stuff in your store, process all of my transactions, file my taxes, send me compliance reports, and handle any charge disputes all without getting any fees from me. And, don’t forget to send my check every month.”

I’d love that deal. And, so would every person selling on Amazon Marketplace (not exactly the same I know, but close enough for comparison).

 

[Alan Wynn]

Someone mentioned about states getting in the middle of interstate commerce, which is a federal government purvue. I remember that from history lessons in school and hope someone else would chime in about this.

The Commerce Clause is what you are referencing. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution:

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

In addition, case law makes clear that state laws that would provide advantages to businesses in a state vis á vis out of state businesses are unconstitutional. (See: West Lynn Creamery Inc. v. Healy, 512 U.S. 186 (1994))

 

[PlainBelliedSneetch]

I guarantee you if I asked my mom — and I’d consider her pretty close to the median in tech literacy — right now how to cancel a subscription that’s billed through the App Store, she wouldn’t know. If I asked her to find it, she probably wouldn’t be able to for quite some time because the way to get there doesn’t actually make sense. She would Google it.

Again, “all your subscriptions in one place” wouldn’t have to go away. This would enable developers to allow cancelling subscriptions directly within an app, which again is where most users would likely expect such functionality to be available. You look for a redo button next to the undo button. You look for a paste button next to the copy button. You look for an unsubscribe button next to where you tapped the subscribe button. This is UI/UX common sense, if you can learn how to look past your own nose.

It’s long, long been a practice for companies providing a subscription service to make it difficult, obscure, or annoying to cancel a subscription, which is probably part of why AOL still had over two million dial-up subscribers in 2015. Apple primarily chooses “obscure,” but it’s no less sleazy (especially given recent rampant App Store scam subscription apps). Making it difficult/obscure/annoying to cancel is not how I’d like to operate — it gives me more incentive to make users want to stay, rather than forget to cancel — but Apple currently gives me no choice.

The iPhone/iPad have search which when you enter the word “subscription“ the top hit will take you to the subscription section of settings. I agree with you that many users won’t figure this out but it is consistent with how app settings are also in a centralized place.

 

[macfacts]

Fixed your post

When someone takes a picture of you, your soul is not stolen. Knowledge of what game someone plays is not private user data

 

[npmacuser5]

Sorry, the Minnesota representative is a member of the Democratic Farm Labor party, a far left offshoot of the Democratic Party. Not what I would call a conservative.

Sorry, the Minnesota representative is a member of the Democratic Farm Labor party, a far left offshoot of the Democratic Party. Not what I would call a conservative.

More an Aggregate comment. North Dakota and Arizona. Not just this example either of Republicans micro managing businesses. I would not be surprised by the Democrats micro managing.

 

[gregmancuso]

Who is most? For what Apple provides i dont have a problem and I’ll wager “most “don’t either. Does one greedy dev? Yep.

All your subscriptions in one place? If one has 25 subscriptions seeing them in one place is sleazy? I guess convenience vs sleaze.

And you can link from your app to the iOS Settings for subscriptions. Best of both worlds. All in one place fir convenience and in your app if you are the one altruistic company that makes it easy fir your customers to cancel (obviously you are NOT a cable company).

 

[Alan Wynn]

And you can link from your app to the iOS Settings for subscriptions. Best of both worlds. All in one place fir convenience and in your app if you are the one altruistic company that makes it easy fir your customers to cancel (obviously you are NOT a cable company).

They provide links to help you cancel your subscriptions (to Netflix, Hulu, HBO Max, etc.). :-D

 

[Alan Wynn]

More an Aggregate comment. North Dakota and Arizona. Not just this example either of Republicans micro managing businesses. I would not be surprised by the Democrats micro managing.

Neither party has a monopoly on stupid or misguided policies and it gets worse at the state and local level. The more one-party a state is the more likely it is to be a problem.

 

[gregmancuso]

I guarantee you if I asked my mom — and I’d consider her pretty close to the median in tech literacy — right now how to cancel a subscription that’s billed through the App Store, she wouldn’t know. If I asked her to find it, she probably wouldn’t be able to for quite some time because the way to get there doesn’t actually make sense. She would Google it.

Again, “all your subscriptions in one place” wouldn’t have to go away. This would enable developers to allow cancelling subscriptions directly within an app, which again is where most users would likely expect such functionality to be available. You look for a redo button next to the undo button. You look for a paste button next to the copy button. You look for an unsubscribe button next to where you tapped the subscribe button. This is UI/UX common sense, if you can learn how to look past your own nose.

It’s long, long been a practice for companies providing a subscription service to make it difficult, obscure, or annoying to cancel a subscription, which is probably part of why AOL still had over two million dial-up subscribers in 2015. Apple primarily chooses “obscure,” but it’s no less sleazy (especially given recent rampant App Store scam subscription apps). Making it difficult/obscure/annoying to cancel is not how I’d like to operate — it gives me more incentive to make users want to stay, rather than forget to cancel — but Apple currently gives me no choice.

it is literally three clicks - Sttings App | iCloud (your name at the top of the setting) | Subscriptions. And even that may be linked to from the app in question.

Granted, it may not be common knowledge, but it is hardly hard to find. I did know when I needed to cancel a subscription to a streaming app when I subscribed as an AppleTV channel instead. I took lesss than a couple of minutes using nothing more than a little common sense and logic.

edit: Embarrassingly enough, I completely forgot that I could have searched for “subscriptions” either in the Settings app or even from the Home Screen Spotlight search.

 

[BigMac?]

the different digital Apple stores are stores like grocery stores. You can’t buy your bread at Walmart and pay it to traders joe. Walmart has to pay for the store, electricity, people and so on.

 

[Wags]

Hmmm, the same to states that love to tax items you can’t avoid like utility bills and services. Looking to tax these someday.