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JazzyGB1

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In April 2017 Apple announced they'd be working on an all new 'Modular' Mac Pro (hooray).
In April 2018 Apple announced that 2019 would be the year that sees the launch...
"We want to be transparent and communicate openly with our pro community so we want them to know that the Mac Pro is a 2019 product. It's not something for this year," Apple's senior director of Mac hardware product marketing, Tom Boger, told TechCrunch. The executive added that Apple is informing people now since professional customers may be weighing whether to buy an iMac Pro"
Fair enough.
Now I know we are still firmly in 2018, but we are just about to enter it's eighth month so 2019 isn't that far away and aside from these two comments there's been nothing further about it.
There's been no reference even to a time frame within 2019. Not an early 2019, Summer 2019, Autumn 2019 etc which at this stage of 2018 you might expect there to be - especially if it was to be in the first quarter of 2019.
If the new Mac Pro was to be released in October 2019 for example, it would mean a whopping two and a half years had passed from announcement to delivery - slow even by Apple standards and you'd have thought if it was coming before then there would have been...well...something... a slither of news, a rumour...anything by now just to perk people's interest.
So is anyone starting to worry about the silence? Is 2019 going to become 2020?
From the lack of updates you'd have to assume it's unlikely (though not impossible) that a new Mac Pro will be arriving in the first half of 2019, so the second half of 2019 is looking more likely which means we could still be a year or more away from seeing it which is kind of depressing.
Hope I'm wrong.
All I'd say is Apple had better get this product right.
If they make us wait this long and give us another lemon then I think it'd be the final straw for a lot of Mac users.
 
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tsialex

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Jun 13, 2016
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There's a lot of wrong things going at Intel, but this week they leaked that Ice Lake-SP Xeons on 10nm are for 2020. So, maybe 2019 is lost for the new new Mac Pro.

Perhaps Apple is waiting them to unlock the thermal corner, trying to not repeat MP6,1. If Apple really wants to go with Ice Lake-SP, better they show us something and fast…

At least, all this problems at Intel kept the classic Mac Pro support for one more year, maybe two, since Apple usually drops Mac support on one year and keep the same supported list on the next.
 
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DearthnVader

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Dec 17, 2015
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Apple still wants to sell nMPs, if they announce the mMP availability date, people will wait it out, and not buy new machines.

The whole deal is bordering on the ridiculous.

How long does it take other PC manufacturers to go from concept of a workstation to production, I mean what, 6 months?

But then, other PC manufacturers are not trying to reinvent the wheel, they stick to ATX type form factor for their workstations. I don't really think Apple learned anything from the nMP debacle, they still think they can sell us on some highly proprietary form factor as long as they can slap some gimmick to it.

I think what's holding them back it the number of PCI-E lanes and Thunderbolt 4, leading me to believe the modular Mac Pro will be nothing more than the Cube 3.0, with all it's external cabling hell and desktop bloat. I mean, what is the point of a wonderful design if I have to connect an external box with power and IO cables every time I turn around.

Apple could have just used the cMP form factor and rushed a product out the door years ago, that number one would have sold, and filled the need of millions, tens of millions?, that have already jumped ship to the PC workstation world.
 

tsialex

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Jun 13, 2016
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Makes no sense. Apple should use whatever CPUs are available when they can release the new Mac Pro - not wait for a specific chipset. It makes absolutely no sense from any perspective to wait. They need to get the new Mac Pro out ASAP or they might as well just drop it.
That did not went well on 2013 Mac Pros, see how limited the processor choices are and how constrained with PCIe lanes.

On iMac Pro, Apple had to downgrade the Xeon clock to meet the thermal demands.
[doublepost=1532773039][/doublepost]
Apple could have just used the cMP form factor and rushed a product out the door years ago, that number one would have sold, and filled the need of millions, tens of millions?, that have already jumped ship to the PC workstation world.

Using the same enclosure, with updated logic board/tray combo to the current Xeons, Apple certainly could had meet the demands of people jumping ship since 2013. But even that ship is long gone.
 

JazzyGB1

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If I needed this to make my living, I'd have moved on already.
Maybe, but not everyone who uses a 'Mac Pro' is a pro user. :)
That's one thing Apple needs to bear in mind. It is massively important IMO.
If they make the new Mac Pro only attainable to professionals it'll bomb.
Not everyone who buys a full frame DSLR is a professional photographer and Canon would not sell nearly as many cameras if it was only pros buying them - that doesn't make Canon any less 'pro' a company though.
Same goes for Apple.
The semi pro's and enthusiasts are VERY important. After all many are often the pros of the future.
I don't make my living using a Mac Pro, but I do need most of it's capabilities.
In my cMac Pro I have 12 TB of internal storage, I have another 1TB SSD installed via PCIe card.
I've added USB3 ports added also via PCIe and I've an updated graphics card to drive my 32" 4k Dell monitor.
I've even upgraded the CPU to a 12 core (though this is not something I'd have done if Apple had regularly updated the Mac Pro).
Those things cannot be done with any other Mac, so I'm patiently awaiting a newer model that can.
Also you have to remember there are many others who ARE professionals who still make their living using their existing Mac Pro, but are awaiting a successor that will better fulfil the role.
It's hard for some (like me) to move to PC.
I'm a Logic user for a start and I'm not too keen to learn another DAW, but also I'm very accustomed to Mac OS.
I just want a more capable Mac than my current one which is now almost 10 years old.
That really shouldn't be too much to ask but it seems to have been for Apple thus far which is to their detriment.
 

DearthnVader

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Dec 17, 2015
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Apple could surprise us all, and come up with something revolutionary, some scheme of IO or interconnect with no cabling, that blows us all away, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

It's not only the Pro workstation that is languishing, the macOS lacks API's for things I use everyday, but then they did give us "Dark Mode".:rolleyes:
 

skippermonkey

macrumors 6502a
Jun 23, 2003
636
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After waiting all this time, I kinda wished I'd just jumped on board with an iMac Pro he it was released last year. I could have had 18 months out of it (possibly more) and just sold it on when (and if) the new Mac Pro arrived – and assuming it's worth it. With possibly a year or more of waiting still to come, maybe I still should...
 

crjackson2134

macrumors 601
Mar 6, 2013
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Using the same enclosure, with updated logic board/tray combo to the current Xeons, Apple certainly could had meet the demands of people jumping ship since 2013. But even that ship is long gone.

I really feel like this would be a good option and it would allow tower users to keep their form factor. They could do this and also offer a modular option for new Mac Pro owners that want a clean start.

They won't do this because it makes too much sense and would please most of the potential customer base. It just won't happen, but I would be awesome.
 
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DearthnVader

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I really feel like this would be a good option and it would allow tower users to keep their form factor. They could do this and also offer a modular option for new Mac Pro owners that want a clean start.

The won't do this because it makes too much sense and would please most of the potential customer base. It just won't happen, but I would be awesome.

I'd really like to see a DIYMac, just give us a ATX logic board for Ryzen or Threadripper, and let us chose all the other parts for the system from standard PC parts, but we all know that isn't going to happen any time soon.
 

alphaod

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Feb 9, 2008
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In 2019, Apple will just sell us a $3000 macOS Hackintosh license stored on a USB token that must be plugged in for the computer to run. It'll be the ultimate modular Mac Pro. You go and buy whatever computer you want (or built your own!), then you install macOS and the USB key will allow you to get OS updates, drivers, everything.
 
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bookemdano

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Jul 29, 2011
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In 2019, Apple will just sell us a $3000 macOS Hackintosh license stored on a USB token that much be plugged in for the computer to run. It'll be the ultimate modular Mac Pro. You go and built whatever computer you want (or built your own!), then you install macOS and the USB key will allow you to get OS updates, drivers, everything.

LOL. Well, it seems they do have a fondness dongles over in Cupertino.

In all seriousness, MacOS is not nearly as tuned for hardware variability as Windows is. The cMP is the perfect example of this. Look at all the idiosyncrasies and weirdness that results when cMP users try to use off-the-shelf PC components in their cMP. Like I was saying in another thread, if you're not a tinkerer then a cMP is not a wise purchase in 2018. Sure if you're going to keep it completely stock, a cMP is perfectly reliable and operates without issues, generally. It's when we try to add BT4.0, Wireless AC, blade SSDs, PC GPUs, USB 3.1 etc. that all kinds of compatibility issues crop up. Honestly it's only slightly less complicated than running a hackintosh. EDIT: and in some ways it's *more* complicated. Hackintosh users have no issues getting boot screens for example!

I don't see Apple embracing a completely open Mac Pro again. They want you to have a constrained number of options for your Mac which they can thoroughly test for compatibility, and preferably they want to sell you those options (at least the internal ones) at the time of sale. I really very much doubt whatever new Mac Pro appears will have traditional PCIe slots. To whatever extent there are "modues" my guess is that they'll either be external via thunderbolt 3 or if internal, they will be made and sold by Apple itself.
 

JazzyGB1

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I don't see Apple embracing a completely open Mac Pro again. They want you to have a constrained number of options for your Mac which they can thoroughly test for compatibility, and preferably they want to sell you those options (at least the internal ones) at the time of sale. I really very much doubt whatever new Mac Pro appears will have traditional PCIe slots. To whatever extent there are "modues" my guess is that they'll either be external via thunderbolt 3 or if internal, they will be made and sold by Apple itself.

You may be right, but I really hope you're not.
That kind of system has been roundly rejected by Apple's consumers...TWICE!
First with the Cube and secondly with the Trashcan Mac Pro.
Regardless of what advantages there may be in 'out the box' expansion, the overwhelming consensus seems to be most people don't want it - not just with Macs, but with Windows PCs too.
Now I'm sure there are exceptions of course, but generally speaking I think it's a fair conclusion to draw.
The problem that Apple have is the Classic Mac Pro already largely met the requirements of most users.
If you surveyed Mac Pro users, most really want an updated version of the existing machine.
Probably minus the optical bays and with more modern connections like Thunderbolt, latest SATA ports for SSD's and maybe a unit that ran a little quieter and efficiently too. I believe for most users the cMac Pro met the brief it just needed to be updated and refined.
Apple steadfastly refuse to give us that kind Mac Pro though it seems and instead seem to want to impose upon us their version of the future - despite it being rejected...TWICE!
This is fine maybe when it comes to iPhones and iPads, but for most of us who use towers the best replacement is...surprise surprise...another tower! :)
Unless they can design a system more flexible and easier to customise than a tower, they are wasting their time giving us anything else.
 
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deconstruct60

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Mar 10, 2009
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There's been no reference even to a time frame within 2019. Not an early 2019, Summer 2019, Autumn 2019 etc which at this stage of 2018 you might expect there to be - especially if it was to be in the first quarter of 2019.

Remember the home pod that Apple said would ship by holiday seasons and didn't?

Most likely they aren't going to peg a line on this until they are pretty well settled on what the timeline is going to be.Especially if there have been some slips due to hiccups along the way.

Should not peg this against the steady drip of iPhone leaks because there is at least one (if not two after loop in the subcontractors ) orders of magnitude more people involved in the getting the product to market. The Mac Pro could be less than 50. Leaking about the Mac pro isn't going to be worth getting fired over. The supply chain of exterior vendors is much smaller, the don't want to loose the business either.
The Mac Pro makes absolutely zero difference to Apple's financials so they don't particularly care. ( a huge fraction of this rumors stuff is folks gaming the stock price of Apple and suppliers. The Mac Pro isn't significant. )


If the new Mac Pro was to be released in October 2019 for example, it would mean a whopping two and a half years had passed from announcement to delivery - slow even by Apple standards and you'd have thought if it was coming before then there would have been...well...something... a slither of news, a rumour...anything by now just to perk people's interest.


If it was October 2019, it is reasonably likely they would do a "sneak peak" at the WWDC. That would give them an excuse to kill off the older Mac Pros then.


Apple doesn't have to actively generate buzz as long as folks spontaneously keep generating threads.

Apple's longest drought without any activity is the Mac Mini. If they were going to back channel leak something, it would probably be around it over next couple of months.


So is anyone starting to worry about the silence? Is 2019 going to become 2020?

IMHO, no. In part because Apple is going to be highly motivated to put the MP 2013 in the Vintage/Obsolete countdown clock sometime in 2019. They are also highly likely want to end the older MacPro 2010-2012 line up into Obsolete status. ( the workaround Mojave with another card is band-aid, stop gap for being late. )


From the lack of updates you'd have to assume it's unlikely (though not impossible) that a new Mac Pro will be arriving in the first half of 2019, so the second half of 2019 is looking more likely which means we could still be a year or more away from seeing it which is kind of depressing.


Apple's official policy is that they do not talk about future products. So Apple saying nothing isn't indicative of "sooner" or "later". It just means they are doing what they normally do. They may vary in special corner cases by a quarter or two but 3+ quarters is widely divergent from their standard practice. "The not this year" stuff is more expectation management ( more so popping balloons of talk that is widely decoupled from reality. )

It is not unlikely that it could come first half of 2019. Leaks are a matter of the number of people with loose lips. Not whether the work is being done or not. There is a Intel Xeon W refresh queued up for early 2019 ( for volume to customers. ). [ At one point on Intel roadmaps that was Q4 18 so sliding components are all the more reason to talk early. ] 1H19 gets out of the window of an initial macOS release. ( matching up the Mac Pro release to the macOS new release isn't really a good thing. )

All I'd say is Apple had better get this product right.
If they make us wait this long and give us another lemon then I think it'd be the final straw for a lot of Mac users.

Perhaps the fridge of what is left of the older Mac Pro users. But Mac users? no; not even close. The overwhelmingly majority of Mac users aren't going to buy a Mac Pro.

If Apple does a MacBook Air , Macbook , iMac , and Mac Mini bump over the rest of 2018 and 1H 2019, most Mac buyers will be quite happy.
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Apple still wants to sell nMPs, if they announce the mMP availability date, people will wait it out, and not buy new machines.

That is doubtful. In Apple's first meeting in April 2017 the mentioned a significant trend in folks moving from Mac Pros to iMacs. ( I know that is not the rabid fans who are left, but significant folks have. ). The iMac Pro provides a pathway for those folks. It is also a pathway for a significant fraction of the early buyers of the MP 2013.

Apple isn't trying to sell large volumes of the MP 2013 (nMP). It is largely there as a placeholder. Quite similar to how the 2012 model was a placeholder until they get the MP 2013 out the door.

For the folks held their breath for the 2012-2016 window of the Mac Pro 2013 transition, then they probably are still holding their breath (or circling the airport) now. They aren't going to buy the nMP. Apple doesn't have any expectation that they will. Folks can hold out, but the catch-22 is that doesn't get you expediency the way Apple sets priorities ( more buyers , more resources. significantly shrinking buyers , less resources ).




How long does it take other PC manufacturers to go from concept of a workstation to production, I mean what, 6 months?

At Mac Pro levels? No. Apple gets out iPhones out on a yearly basis but they have 14-18 month cycles. The issue is whether the development is concurrent and pipelined or not. The ramp up on the Mac Pro is long most likely because they completely stopped working on it. Until the iMac Pro finished it probably got no resources assigned. Even after reboot it is probably sharing some resources.


I think what's holding them back it the number of PCI-E lanes and Thunderbolt 4, leading me to believe the modular Mac Pro will be nothing more than the Cube 3.0, with all it's external cabling hell and desktop bloat. I mean, what is the point of a wonderful design if I have to connect an external box with power and IO cables every time I turn around.

There is little to back that up. Intel Xeon W went to 48 from the 40 of the last generation E5. The corresponding PCH controller also so a significant bump in PCI-e lanes. There is enough.

Thunderbolt 4 ? TB doesn't need any more churn over the next year or so. The switch to Type C connector and the rollout of the 3rd party controllers is enough of a "change" for the market to adapt to.


Apple could have just used the cMP form factor and rushed a product out the door years ago, that number one would have sold, and filled the need of millions, tens of millions?, that have already jumped ship to the PC workstation world.

Millions? The Mac Pro is probably way closer to 100K than it is 1M. You are probably off by at least an order of magnitude. With the iMacs going to 6+ core and entry-mid desktop like GPU and the iMac Pro, the revised Mac Pro would probably be doing good if it got to 60-80K per year. The old Mac Pros weren't selling millions.
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There's a lot of wrong things going at Intel, but this week they leaked that Ice Lake-SP Xeons on 10nm are for 2020. So, maybe 2019 is lost for the new new Mac Pro.

Not particularly likely that Apple would use SP processors. More likley they'd use Xeon W. ( there will be a corresponding W iteration around the same time. ). There is about zero rational reason to wait for Ice Lake.
Cooper Lake is probably going to be socket compatible with Cascade Lake. If Apple went with Cacade Lake they could

a. also update the iMac Pro.
b. get two cycles out of this basic board design. ( just like they used to. )
c. retire off the ancient raft the Mac Pros that will be a support boat anchor going forward.

Apple has already wasted tons of time. Ice Lake isn't some magic bullet. If AMD doesn't screw things up, Ice Lake may not even be the better option.


Perhaps Apple is waiting them to unlock the thermal corner, trying to not repeat MP6,1. If Apple really wants to go with Ice Lake-SP, better they show us something and fast…

The major thermal issues of the MP 2013 ( 6,1) was the GPUs not the CPUs. Punting to some future Intel CPU isn't going to address that primary root cause problem.

Apple already has a thermal corner. The iMac Pro is llargely in pretty similar thermal corner. Just take same baseline and remove that is all that is sufficient. (and add another internal GPU or "big slot" card option. ).



At least, all this problems at Intel kept the classic Mac Pro support for one more year, maybe two, since Apple usually drops Mac support on one year and keep the same supported list on the next.

Errr, not really. Really bad product lineup management at Apple is why Apple is goosing the old Mac Pro's forward.
Intel isn't the problem. AMD really isn't either.

if Apple had spun up resources in 2014-15 to run the iMac Pro and current mindset on the Mac Pro in parallel Apple would have had two products at about the same time. They didn't. So they only ended up with the iMac Pro and the same "rob Peter to pay Paul" development queues across the whole Mac product line up.
 
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handheldgames

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Considering the number of employees, divisions and cash flow of Apple, there is no excuse. Clearly the mMP is NOT a priority for the Leadership of Apple.

Perhaps quoting Steve Jobs can better reflect Apple's Culture and a major reason they shipped the iMac Pro in the mMp timeframe

“Some people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them. That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page.”
- Steve Jobs.

2019 may just be another unfulfilled promise.
 

joebclash

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Jun 14, 2016
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That did not went well on 2013 Mac Pros, see how limited the processor choices are and how constrained with PCIe lanes.

On iMac Pro, Apple had to downgrade the Xeon clock to meet the thermal demands.
[doublepost=1532773039][/doublepost]

Using the same enclosure, with updated logic board/tray combo to the current Xeons, Apple certainly could had meet the demands of people jumping ship since 2013. But even that ship is long gone.

There is plenty of vendors using current intel chips in workstations (hp, dell, lenovo) and they are working fine. Apple needs to get away from this form over function kick they have been on. Stick a new motherboard in classic mac pro case and most people will be fine with it.
 

Simon R.

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Sep 25, 2006
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There is plenty of vendors using current intel chips in workstations (hp, dell, lenovo) and they are working fine. Apple needs to get away from this form over function kick they have been on. Stick a new motherboard in classic mac pro case and most people will be fine with it.

But we know that isn't going to happen. Apple today is not Apple of 2006. Every product has to be made to milk its customers as much as possible for money. So the cMP doesn't fit well into that way of thinking. Way too many things we can buy cheaper from others than Apple to upgrade it. Oh no, Apple won't make that "mistake" again I am afraid. And that is what will likely make the new Mac Pro another flop, ironically.
 
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mattspace

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In Apple's first meeting in April 2017 the mentioned a significant trend in folks moving from Mac Pros to iMacs.

Giving people a choice between a turd sandwich, and a water biscuit, and finding that people overwhelmingly choose the water biscuit, isn't an endorsement for the nutritional value, flavour and desirability of the latter as a preferred food item.

But that does seem to be the rationale of Apple's self-justification - the pro world overwhelmingly hates on the macbook pro, disagrees with the choices Apple made, thinks the touchbar is a useless piece of junk used to hide the fact they didn't have any other homework to show (and have painted themselves into a corner on touchscreen support), but Apple uses sales of it, in the absence of any other significant competition, as a justification for why the parasitic garbage parts of the design, are in some way beloved of users.
 

CreeptoLoser

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But that does seem to be the rationale of Apple's self-justification - the pro world overwhelmingly hates on the macbook pro, disagrees with the choices Apple made, thinks the touchbar is a useless piece of junk

Very extreme opinions, man.

The pro world doesn't hate the MacBook Pro. It's the most popular laptop in the field. The issue is people who want clickbait or attention go around complaining that they can't render a video or 3D benchmark file as fast as a desktop workstation. That's crazy. Especially because laptops aren't used for production 3D rendering and the Mac version Adobe Media Encoder is really poor even on a desktop Mac. YouTubers are using the worst examples possible just for YouTube advert hits and gullible people just suck it up. Linus has spent $50K+ on their workstation editing rigs but he also created a clickbait throttle video because it's free money. Buy laptop, make clickbait video, make ad money, laptop was going to be refunded anyway.

The Touch Bar has been really popular with editors and deejays. It has given them multitouch real time slider controls that wasn't possible before. Before with a trackpad deejays had to click on one dial, then turn it, then click on another dial, then turn it. Painfully slow for live performances. Now they just put their fave tools on the Touch Bar and have real time interaction with their fingers.
 

mattspace

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The pro world doesn't hate the MacBook Pro. It's the most popular laptop in the field.

Find a pro user who wouldn't rather the machine to be the cost of the touchbar less in price, with normal function keys, a competently engineered keyboard, touchid, and no touchbar.

The "popularity" of the touchbar models is a win by default for there not being an alternative.



The issue is people who want clickbait or attention go around complaining that they can't render a video or 3D benchmark file as fast as a desktop workstation. That's crazy. Especially because laptops aren't used for production 3D rendering and the Mac version Adobe Media Encoder is really poor even on a desktop Mac.

Riiight, they're using it wrong... like those iPhone 4 users who were "holding it wrong"?

The Touch Bar has been really popular with editors and deejays. It has given them multitouch real time slider controls that wasn't possible before. Before with a trackpad deejays had to click on one dial, then turn it, then click on another dial, then turn it. Painfully slow for live performances. Now they just put their fave tools on the Touch Bar and have real time interaction with their fingers.

Funny, all the editors I know, and I know a few who work at national TV networks, are dumping their personal macs and building windows machines for their freelance practices. Their workplaces obviously have all dumped Apple gear and software long ago.
 

CreeptoLoser

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Riiight, they're using it wrong... like those iPhone 4 users who were "holding it wrong"?

Laptops. You’re on a Mac Pro forum. You should know that workstations not laptops should be used for that type of work where compute power and thermals are an issue and always will be.

Touch Bar. Your answer was low effort. I know it’s easy to just get knee jerked into randomly posting word soup on the internets but you wouldn’t dare say those things in the real world would you? In front of professionals using touch interfaces for media control?
 

mattspace

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Laptops. You’re on a Mac Pro forum. You should know that workstations not laptops should be used for that type of work where compute power and thermals are an issue and always will be.

And here's where we get the fundamental problem with the malaise in Apple's current hardware. In the windows world, you can buy laptops with double the graphics performance of the top of the range iMac Pro. There's the entire "mobile workstation" class of gear. In one device, you can get what would require a Macbook Pro, plus a roadcase full of boxes for eGPUs, drives, hubs, half a dozen power cables etc.

And yes, this stuff DOES get done in the field, I know because I've been on set during shoots where we used it.

Thermal failure is a failure of product design, not incorrect usage.

Touch Bar. Your answer was low effort. I know it’s easy to just get knee jerked into randomly posting word soup on the internets but you wouldn’t dare say those things in the real world would you? In front of professionals using touch interfaces for media control?

Funny, the editors I know are a lot harsher than I am. The touchbar doesn't do anything that an iPad, or a dedicated peripheral can't do *better*.
 
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CreeptoLoser

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Thermal failure is a failure of product design, not incorrect usage.



Funny, the editors I know are a lot harsher than I am. The touchbar doesn't do anything that an iPad, or a dedicated peripheral can't do *better*.

Thermal failure (whatever that means). Not a failure of incorrect usage? Are you really saying it’s OK to throw any type of heavy usage at a thin and light notebook? Especially apps like Media Encoder that run badly on a Mac anyway?

Touch Bar. Please stop insulting people who are making use of it. It’s really well integrated in some apps and lets you use the cursors, keyboard short cuts and touch controls in harmony vey quickly. It’s no different from when sliders and knobs were added to synthesisers in the 60s and 70s. If you don’t like it that is your subjective viewpoint.
 

mattspace

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Thermal failure (whatever that means). Not a failure of incorrect usage? Are you really saying it’s OK to throw any type of heavy usage at a thin and light notebook? Especially apps like Media Encoder that run badly on a Mac anyway?

Absolutely, because that's exactly what people outside the macosphere do. "Pro" laptops have an actual range of form factors. For example, you can actually do VR on a windows laptop. Throughout apple's range, the biggest limiter on performance and reliability, is insufficient cooling to do the sort of work that people want to do with their gear.

The problem with Apple, and this is just as true in their desktop machines, is the presumption that "thin & light" is desirable, or something that shouldn't be compromised.

Touch Bar. Please stop insulting people who are making use of it. It’s really well integrated in some apps and lets you use the cursors, keyboard short cuts and touch controls in harmony vey quickly. It’s no different from when sliders and knobs were added to synthesisers in the 60s and 70s. If you don’t like it that is your subjective viewpoint.

Settle petal, I'm insulting the hardware, and its designers, not the users. If people want to use a MBP, good for them, but making a device that can only do significant work for a short period of time, and can't protect itself from overheating is a stupid set of compromises.

Put it this way, if Apple added 1cm in thickness, and used all that space for cooling and battery, they'd lose approximately zero users, given how many compromises people buying their laptops have to accept already.
 
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