Monaco GP

[Belly-laughs]

Are you blind ?

No, but you could argue Monatoya is. Still, if you need to heat your brakes, why do it in the pitch black darkness of that tunnel? The safety car still had the whole dockside, laid in beautiful sunshine, to go before going in the pit lane. Even though the car in lead dictates the speed, the driver should know the risk of dropping speed so suddenly. Maybe a little hint of what he´s about to perform would be appropriate? If Schumi and Montoya has a thing going, Schumi had even better reason to be aware.

I still say it was an accident. If Montoya wants to be a contender of the race and in this year´s championship, surely he wouldn´t jeopardise his chances by ramming people with the very vehicle that will take him to the finish line. He was very lucky he too didn´t hit the wall.

 

[JFreak]

Which drivers have had best opportunity and done least with it?

coulthard, as you stated, has always driven in best cars available, but achieved nothing. he has always stated at the beginning of a season that this time the chamionship is his, but has always been in the shadow of his team mate. notably behind hakkinen and raikkonen, the two finns making him at shame recently.

 

[iGav]

No, but you could argue Monatoya is. Still, if you need to heat your brakes, why do it in the pitch black darkness of that tunnel?

The tunnel isn't actually that dark in the flesh, it's the TV camera's that make it appear far, far darker than it actually is, the darkness had nothing to do with the collision, it was Montoya driving too close to Schumi at too fast a speed when they weren't under racing conditions.

It also takes a substantial amount of time to heat Carbon brakes, all the other drivers were doing exactly the same thing as Schumacher was, it's just that they weren't driving so close to the car infront, that they couldn't take evasive action.

What the Schu did today is what he has always done, he brake tests his opponents, he was always doing it to Damon Hill because it was the only way he could keep ahead. The Schu would brake test on the sling shot corner before a passing place.

Brake testing?? hahahah... He was warming his brakes during a safety car period... period. Just like every other driver in the pack at the time.

But he wasn't brake testing for a couple of reasons. 1. They weren't racing at that time, they were in a safety car situation, with half a lap to go. 2. it's not Schu's fault that Montoya was going at such a speed that under SC conditions, he couldn't take evasive action.

It wasn't deliberate by Montoya, but it was an avoidable incident, he just needs to be more careful in situations like that, that's all.

 

[johnnyjibbs]

I admit we all laughed out loud when we saw Schumacher. Of course, he is the best driver, but it's nice for him to make a stupid mistake once in a while (I don't believe Montoya did anything wrong).

I was routing for Button but then hats off to Truli. At least it was a great race. Those accidents also show just how safe F1 cars are. Nows lets get rid of the silly rules such as qualifying and the 1 engine rule.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

hill - schu battle was indeed in 1994 but it was unsportive at the greatest degree! one point difference before the last race and schumi knowing he would have to retire, so he just took the rival out and thus took the title. he didn't deserve the title at all. thank god hill took the title in 1996.

the battle with villeneuve was in 1997 and thank god villeneuve took the title. schumi's action was just plain stupid.

in 1999 it was mika hakkinen who took the title for the second time, the first being in 1998.

Yes, you are correct about the dates. But not about that in 1994 it was such a unsportive action.

1) You should remember formula one back then. It was really much more agressive and you should remember Sennas actions against Porst.
2) It was Hills own fault. If he just had waited a little bit and not tried to push trough he had won that championship.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

No, but you could argue Monatoya is. Still, if you need to heat your brakes, why do it in the pitch black darkness of that tunnel? The safety car still had the whole dockside, laid in beautiful sunshine, to go before going in the pit lane. Even though the car in lead dictates the speed, the driver should know the risk of dropping speed so suddenly. Maybe a little hint of what he´s about to perform would be appropriate? If Schumi and Montoya has a thing going, Schumi had even better reason to be aware.

I still say it was an accident. If Montoya wants to be a contender of the race and in this year´s championship, surely he wouldn´t jeopardise his chances by ramming people with the very vehicle that will take him to the finish line. He was very lucky he too didn´t hit the wall.

1) That tunnel is not that dark how it looks in TV
2) All drivers where doing that.
3) In a interview Coulthard and Lauda clearly stated that it was Montoyas fault. BTW they also clearly stated that the other incident was Alonsos fault and not Ralfs.

 

[iGav]

in 1997 he tried to take villeneuve out in the last race. fortunately it was schumacher who had to retire from the race and villeneuve got the title.

Yep, and he was stripped of his position as well, which was only fair. But then why wasn't Alain Prost stripped of his WDC in 1989?? (in almost identical circumstances). Or why wasn't Senna stripped of his 1990 WDC when he took Prost out at the first corner in Suzuka??, arguably the most stupid piece of driving in the history of the sport, using his McLaren as a guided missile at 160MPH, in very close proximity of grandstands, when both cars could have gone into the crowd, is worse than anything Schumacher has ever pulled off (he's only ever closed the door, like Prost at low speeds, not rammed another driver off at 160MPH)

and in 1998 & 1999 it was mika häkkinen who took the title in front of schumi, and hakkinen is still the last man who has succeeded in beating the man.

I have alot of respect for Häkkinen, he was an incredibly smooth and fast driver, especially when the car was set up perfectly for him, a gentleman sportsman too.

He wasn't necessarily the best driver in the rain, and he used to struggle though if he was stuck mid-field, almost like he lost interest.. but when he was out front, damn was he fast!

It was a shame to see how he lost form and was a shadow of his former self in 2001 being consistanly outraced by D.C., if his heart wasn't in it, he should have retired at the end of 2000. It was a pleasure to watch him race though.

As for 1998 Häkkinen deserved the title, in what was clearly the best car of the field, but Schu ran him surprisingly close that year, in a much inferior car.

1999 is a moot point, Schu missed several races after breaking his leg at Silverstone, although Häkkinen made very tough work from then on, generally driving quite poorly, and even making an enforced error at Monza and very nearly came close to losing the title to Irvine... which really would've been unthinkable.

but in 2003 he didn't really deserve the title, once again. it was the european gp where he spun off but the race stewards pushed him back to the race again, which gave him three points in the final results. but back in the 1989-1990 when ayrton senna and alain prost had similar battle between them, the "outsider help" was considered illegal and points were disqualified after the race. but now schumi got to keep his points giving him the title (because raikkonen was only two points behind after the season ended).

He didn't deserve the title in 2003?? you're jesting... he was on inferior tyres all year, and won 6 races. To Kimi's 1.

The European GP when Schu spun, well his car was in a dangerous position, and the engine was STILL running, pushing a car back on track isn't actually illegal (unless he has stalled) so his result was justified.

Senna's disqualification in 1989 wasn't just because he received a push start, it was because he joined the the track at a different point to where he'd left it.. and missed out an ENTIRE chicaine in the process.

All this talk of old rules is irrelevant, however by your thinking and just to be abit naughty...

Had the points system not been changed after 2002, then Schu's winning
margin would have been much greater, infact Schu would have sealed the title at Indy, instead of Suzuka.

Had 1988's rules existed in 2003, Raikkonen wouldn't have even been close to winning, because of the difference in points structure, and because only the best 11 results counted, and Schu with his 6 wins, would have trumped it.

Or to be really controversial, how about Senna in 1988, not actually being World Champion with the 1989 rules. Prost actually scored more points than Senna in 1988, but because of the 11 Best Results rule Senna edged it, and that with his WDC which he didn't really win in 1990 because he purposely took Prost off at the first corner in Suzuka... Senna could have been infact only a 1x World Champion.

schumi's not as good fellow as he pretends to be now. his career started badly. there has not been anyone that has behaved worse than schumi in the beginning of his career.

*cough* SENNA *cough* check his early history

 

[iGav]

Nows lets get rid of the silly rules such as qualifying and the 1 engine rule.

Ditto.. Mosely seems to think that the old 12 lap qually is coming back... boy do I hope so, it was incredible watching Schu and Montoya duel it out... and Hakkinen, and especially Senna.

 

[iGav]

No action is to be taken against JPM... hmmmm, no I do wonder how they came to that conclusion, it wasn't on purpose, it wasn't a racing incident, but it was an avoidable incident. Talk about muddying the waters of the rule book.

http://www.itv-f1.com/news/news_story/21313

Anyway... onto the Nurburgring

 

[JFreak]

2) It was Hills own fault. If he just had waited a little bit and not tried to push trough he had won that championship.

yes, hill would have won if he had the brain to wait for schumi to retire, but that's not the point... the fact is, schumi did wrong by trying to take hill out (and succeeding), and it is completetly schumi's unsposrtsmanship that took him the title instead of his superioirity in that season. it is a sure thing he was a better driver overall having a lesser car than hill in 1994, but it's the points that count and the situation was clear: hill was going to take the title after schumi was about to retire, and schumi decided he's entitled to take hill out of the race. that's not a behaviour of a champion, is it?

 

[VincentVega]

Are you blind ? Schumi was in lead. He makes the pace. Period. After several laps after the safety car you need to heaten up your brakes. Thats what he did. Montoya was much to near behing Schumi. If you look at Trulli - he had much much more distance. Again - I think it was on purpose.

Schumi was in the lead, in a dark tunnel, where there's very little visibility (the cameras make it look a lot lighter than it is). And he decides to brake hard (his front left tyre locked up). How's Montoya going to anticipate that happening?

You have no proof it was done deliberately. It was quite likely that Montoya would have sustained damage as well, he's just lucky that he didn't retire as well. It was an accident, plain and simple.

Remember Monza 2000? Schumi brakes behind the safety car, everyone gets caught out, Button goes off and has to retire. All because of the mighty Schumacher. Well, this time he got caught out. What a tragedy!

Ah, the deluded rantings of the Schumi fan-boi! How very quaint they are...

 

[russed]

Yes, you are correct about the dates. But not about that in 1994 it was such a unsportive action.

1) You should remember formula one back then. It was really much more agressive and you should remember Sennas actions against Porst.
2) It was Hills own fault. If he just had waited a little bit and not tried to push trough he had won that championship.

it wasnt Hill's fault, schumi blatently steered into him. just because it was more agressive back then it doesnt mean you can try crashing into someone to take them out and guarantee the victory and thus the championship. he knew he was going to lose the race and championship if hill got past him and he knew he was going to do so. he cheated and so deserves the tainted reputation he has as a result.

 

[russed]

Ah, the deluded rantings of the Schumi fan-boi! How very quaint they are...

here here! at least it appears im not the only one who is against him.

 

[Belly-laughs]

Schumi was in the lead, in a dark tunnel, where there's very little visibility (the cameras make it look a lot lighter than it is). And he decides to brake hard (his front left tyre locked up). How's Montoya going to anticipate that happening?

You have no proof it was done deliberately. It was quite likely that Montoya would have sustained damage as well, he's just lucky that he didn't retire as well. It was an accident, plain and simple.

Glad to see others having that point of view too. The length of the lock-up must have caused a dramatic reduction in speed. I´m sure the drivers further back, keeping their brakes warm, didn´t lock-up as much as Schumi did. Either it was a break-system failure or he made a mess of it himself. If he did it deliberately, trying to cause a hold up and possible contact between cars further back, I say he bloody well deserved it.

 

[iGav]

The length of the lock-up must have caused a dramatic reduction in speed. I´m sure the drivers further back, keeping their brakes warm, didn´t lock-up as much as Schumi did. Either it was a break-system failure or he made a mess of it himself. If he did it deliberately, trying to cause a hold up and possible contact between cars further back, I say he bloody well deserved it.

The fact that Schu locked up is irrelevant, the brakes were cold, they snag when they're cold, you frequently see drivers locking up brakes on the parade lap, it's not uncommon. F1 brakes take a good lap to come up to temp, and they don't come up to temp when they're stuck behind a safety car doing 50-100mph, with next to nothing load through the brakes.

Had Montoya not being following so closely, and left enough room to be able to take evasive action (like all the other drivers were doing) then there would not of been a problem.

Also remember, they weren't under racing conditions at the time so there was no need for Montoya to be shawdoing Schu so close, only half way round the track, with the SC only 30 yards in front of Schu.

 

[kettle]

There are just too many Schu obsessed opinions, this is a married man you guys are dribbling over, please stand back, put your hearts somewhere safe and start approaching this situation with a rational mind.

 

[Savage Henry]

I only managed to see the final 30 laps, and it was by far the best racing F1 has seen all season.

Sure, it would have been better had Trulli and Button achieved the result they had with Schu still in the race, but these things do happen. And unless the incidents, circumstances and implications are identical (which they never are) it seems rather pointless digging up old events from seasons past with which to make comparitives.

Schu, will still get the title, and deservedly so. So Monaco will be a mere insignificant glitch in an otherwise successful season.

 

[JFreak]

I have alot of respect for Häkkinen (...) It was a shame to see how he lost form and was a shadow of his former self in 2001 being consistanly outraced by D.C.

well, häkkinen used to always talk about the car balance, and it is well known that häkkinen enjoys a car that oversteers a little (but d.c. likes an understeering one). in fact all great drivers (schumi, senna, jpm...) like oversteering better, because that gives more control over how the car can corner. understeering drivers (d.c., ralf, barrichello...) tend to be the safe-and-sound second drivers that never become a legend.

anyway, häkkinen's fault was that he let d.c. do most of the testing in 2000 & 2001, and naturally d.c. developed the car into the direction he himself likes. that is, understeering one. and häkkinen couldn't edge it, because he couldn't trust the car like before. given a car häkkinen could trust and a car d.c. could enjoy, häkkinen was always half a second quicker.

too bad häkkinen couldn't take the 2000 title. i would've want to see him retire as a 3x champion.

 

[iGav]

start approaching this situation with a rational mind.

I am... Montoya shouldn't have drove into him... heh heh heh.

Once Schu ties up the title, he'll put him in the wall... Senna style.

 

[JFreak]

Once Schu ties up the title, he'll put him in the wall... Senna style.

i hope not. here's for schumi: "break a leg"

 

[Sol]

Break-Testing Stunt

Monaco was the first good race of 2004. There was plenty of drama from the start to the end.

For me what happened to Michael Schumacher is not important. I love Formula 1 for the race, not for one over-rated team and its number 1 driver. Renault and BAR earned their victories while that break-testing stunt cost both Schumacher and Montoya their races. Montoya has nothing to apologise for; if the driver in front of him was more responsible they would both have continued to race. It is too bad that Michael Schumacher is treated with kid gloves by the FIA and stunts like that go un-punished.

 

[Belly-laughs]

The fact that Schu locked up is irrelevant, the brakes were cold, they snag when they're cold, you frequently see drivers locking up brakes...

Typical woman´s excuse when hit by car behind

 

[whookam]

lol, I think its funny that people think the camera makes the tunnel appear darker than reality. What makes you think that? I can imagine the director sitting back thinking, 'now if we could just make that tunnel a little darker so it looks really dramatic.'

If you are driving into a tunnel from bright sunshine at SC speeds, your are going to be out the other side before your eyes/brain can compensate and adjust. The camera exposure is balanced so that we, the viewers, can see what is happening.

And of course Martin Brundle said it was darker for the drivers in the commentry... can't really argue with that.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

Sure, it would have been better had Trulli and Button achieved the result they had with Schu still in the race, but these things do happen. And unless the incidents, circumstances and implications are identical (which they never are) it seems rather pointless digging up old events from seasons past with which to make comparitives.

Schu, will still get the title, and deservedly so. So Monaco will be a mere insignificant glitch in an otherwise successful season.

I think you are right, even with Schumi still in the race Trulli and Button would have finished first and second. They both made the very good decision of coming in during the beginning of the SC phase. Schumi slept there.

For the FIA the incident between Schumi and Montoya was not worthful any further action. Everybody happy ? I wonder what the international reactions would have been if Schumi kicks someone out of the race and the FIA decides no further action needed.

I think we discussed this incident in detail and every side sticks happy with her/his opinion. And thats fine.

Hopefully we see in the near future more races like the one yesterday. I love to see good racing. No need that Schumi wins. I would be glad if there would be a real competitor for him like Damon or Mika was. Unfortunatly they both stopped driving.

 

[iGav]

lol, I think its funny that people think the camera makes the tunnel appear darker than reality. What makes you think that?

Because I've been there... and it ain't all that dark. Much the same way as how you can judge speeds and distances of road cars when entering the tunnels around London (and they're alot darker than the Monaco Tunnel. You don't become blinded by the sudden transition at SC speeds.

Either way it still doesn't justify Montoya driving so close at such a speed, with half a lap to go before the restart, when he was completely aware that there was a safety car in front of Schu, and he's very much aware of the accelerate hard, brake heavy routine because it's done on all the parade laps before every GP.

What was Montoya doing so close to Schu when other drivers give space in the same situation??

Let us not forget that this isn't the first time Montoya has hassled Schu in a SC period. If memory serves, either 2003 or 2002 at the A1 in Austria, under a SC Montoya who was 2nd at the time was crawling all over Schu, and even pulled up alongside trying to get Schu to speed up, because he thought Schu was bunching up the pack too much, well it's not up to the 2nd place driver to dictate the pace of the pack during an SC period, it's for the leader to decide.

Had it had been the other way around, they'd still be a bunch of people blaming Schu no doubt