Monaco GP

[iGav]

Typical woman´s excuse when hit by car behind

Well it's the car behinds fault isn't it. You're supposed to leave a big enough distant to be able to either stop, or take avoiding action if the car infront gets into difficulties or has to stop suddenly.

If you hit the car infront, you're driving without due care and attention. simple.

 

[Belly-laughs]

Well it's the car behinds fault isn't it. You're supposed to leave a big enough distant to be able to either stop, or take avoiding action if the car infront gets into difficulties or has to stop suddenly.

If you hit the car infront, you're driving without due care and attention. simple.

That´s just plain unfair!

 

[iGav]

That´s just plain unfair!

Why is it??

If you're stuck on someone's bumper, and they have to brake suddenly, because say a child runs out in front of them, and because you're so close to them that you can't react quick enough to stop before hitting them, then it's the following driver who is at fault.

It's not the other drivers fault for braking heavily to avoid an accident, it's the driver behind for not giving himself enough space to stop. Hence the 'without due care and attention'.

Remember only a fool breaks the 2 second rule.

Interestingly, according to recent stats released here, women are more likely to crash into somebody from behind than be hit from behind by a man

 

[Blackstealth]

Remember only a fool breaks the 2 second rule.

Yet you leave a 2 second gap to find some jerk decides to pull into it, and then stomps on the brakes!

 

[robbieduncan]

The "2 second rule" does not apply in racing! It is often necessary and indeed desirable for 1 car to follow another very closely. Whilst this is normally during actual racing conditions it is also normal under SC. The reason that the cars can drive right under each other gear boxes (which are at the back of an F1 car) is that they all respect a common set of rules, namely that a driver will not break apart from in the normal breaking zones. If drivers start breaking all over the place then there will be a spate of accidents followed by a complete lack of overtaking as no driver will be willing to slipstream another.

 

[iGav]

The "2 second rule" does not apply in racing! It is often necessary and indeed desirable for 1 car to follow another very closely. Whilst this is normally during actual racing conditions it is also normal under SC.

I know it doesn't apply in racing...

But during a SC period, the cars aren't racing each other, and also the behaviour is exactly the same as when the F1 cars do the parade lap, all the drivers do practice starts and heavy breaking to put temp into the tyres and the brakes. It's NOT unusual to do this, and EVERY driver was doing it during both SC periods, in every race that an SC car has been required. Schu was only doing what other drivers were doing at EXACTLY the same time.

The ONLY difference is that the Magnificent Montoya (who was also apparantly a lap down on Schu) drove so closely and at such a high speed that he couldn't take avoiding action, when it is COMMON knowledge amongst the drivers, that the you need to carry out such maneuvers to bring up tyre and brake temp.

Here's a quote from Trulli...

"I tried to keep my distance from them," said the Italian. "Montoya wasn't leaving any space between himself and the Ferrari.* They were really fast down to Mirabeau.* I thought 'maybe they're going to crash'."

Montoya wasn't leaving any space... well there you go...

If drivers start breaking all over the place then there will be a spate of accidents followed by a complete lack of overtaking as no driver will be willing to slipstream another.

And that has absolutely nothing to do with what happens whilst following a SC. you don't need to be slipstreaming the car in front doing 80mph behind an SC. period.

 

[Belly-laughs]

Why is it??

If you're stuck on someone's bumper, and they have to brake suddenly, because say a child runs out in front of them, and because you're so close to them that you can't react quick enough to stop before hitting them, then it's the following driver who is at fault.

It's not the other drivers fault for braking heavily to avoid an accident, it's the driver behind for not giving himself enough space to stop. Hence the 'without due care and attention'.

Remember only a fool breaks the 2 second rule.

Interestingly, according to recent stats released here, women are more likely to crash into somebody from behind than be hit from behind by a man

Relax, I know. It was a joke. Now, seriously, if you look at the incident, it looks to me as Montoya saw his only way out trying to avoid hitting the Ferrari by going between Schumi and the right hand wall of the tunnel. The contact happened when the Ferrari closed the gap. So to Montoya´s defence, it looked like he tried to avoid contact, only to be squashed between the Ferrari and the wall.

 

[iGav]

Relax, I know. It was a joke.

I missed that...

heheh, it's hard to know if people are aware of these things (not everyone is a driver for example) or maybe laws are different in other countries etc etc...

Now, seriously, if you look at the incident, it looks to me as Montoya saw his only way out trying to avoid hitting the Ferrari by going between Schumi and the right hand wall of the tunnel. The contact happened when the Ferrari closed the gap. So to Montoya´s defence, it looked like he tried to avoid contact, only to be squashed between the Ferrari and the wall.

I've seen it many a time now... heheh,

I don't think Montoya purposely took him out, they're both competitive son's of b*tches which is what makes it so frustrating, yet so fun (it's the nearest we've got to the Prost/Senna fued), and they are both awesome drivers.

But I just think there was no need for Montoya to be tailgating him only halfway around lap. He certainly made an effort to avoid the collision, but he put himself in that position, when he really didn't need to.

Anyway... onto the 'Ring.

 

[takao]

i would say it's a
55-60 percent montoya's fault
45-40 percent M. schumacher's

but for the alonso-ralf accident...well that is a complete different story....

 

[iGav]

but for the alonso-ralf accident...well that is a complete different story....

Ralf is abit of a hazard lately isn't he.

 

[Counterfit]

I think it's funny how Alonso managed to flip off Ralf while he was still crashing

And the last few laps of this year where quite similar to the last few laps of last year, With JPM leading Kimi by very little, then Schumi joining with about 5 laps left.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

Ralf is abit of a hazard lately isn't he.

Well, do you mean that it was Ralfs fault that Alonso tried to overtake him at 300km/h on the dirty side of the street and then couldn't manage to stay on the street because the grip suddenly dropped ?

 

[JFreak]

Well, do you mean that it was Ralfs fault that Alonso tried to overtake him at 300km/h on the dirty side of the street and then couldn't manage to stay on the street because the grip suddenly dropped ?

ralf was blue-flagged many corners ago, so it was ralf who should've driven the dirty side, not alonso. plus, in the tunel, something weird was going on. ralf braked, accelerated, and braked again, and effectively got alonso confused what's he doing.

nobody really knows, but ralf cannot avoid the fact that he is involved in many such dubious accidents...

 

[CmdrLaForge]

ralf was blue-flagged many corners ago, so it was ralf who should've driven the dirty side, not alonso. plus, in the tunel, something weird was going on. ralf braked, accelerated, and braked again, and effectively got alonso confused what's he doing.

Ha ha ha ! Alsonos was completely confused by Ralf and then forgot NOT to drive on the dirty side of the road in a curve at 300km/h

That is really funny.

Well, I think we can put for this accident aside what Ralf did in previous corners.
If he ignored the blue flag, stewards of the race must give him a drive through penality.

 

[iGav]

If he ignored the blue flag, stewards of the race must give him a drive through penality.

The stewarding at this race were some of the worst I can remember.

They didn't pick up on Sato's dodge jump start. Then after Sato blew up, first they put the Red flag out, and then the SC came out

After Klein went off into the barrier, a steward was standing bang on the racing line, and several cars had to take avoiding action to miss him.

Button has said that De Matta held him up for almost 4 laps, totally ignoring blue flags, and only got a drive through after the damage was done.

And Ralf with a shafted car (losing gears) continued to drive around ignoring several blue flags... Williams should have pulled him in to retire, just seeing the carnage Sato's accident caused at the start should have made them do that.

Ralf is just driving really poorly at the moment, Montoya is crucifying him at every race, and Ralf is getting himself tangled up in all kinds of bother, particularly Bahrain, but it's not the only time that has happened.

 

[JFreak]

That is really funny.

actually, no. ralf had a malfunctioning gearbox and he stated that he only had the fourth gear available during that accident, so that's why he was driving slower than alonso thought he were.

the race stewards should have given him the black flag for technical problems, if the situation was that bad ralf stated. why they didn't react? nobody knows.

had alonso had more experience he wouldn't have crashed, period.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

had alonso had more experience he wouldn't have crashed, period.

Thats what I was saying. The crash was Alonso fault

And yes you are right. Ralf is a poor driver and I don't understand why he is ignoring blue flags or even staying on the track with a defect car.

And yes. The stewards of that race where really really bad. All points iGav mentioned are true. I saw the red flag as well - and then SC ?!?!?


Thats not acceptable.

 

[ianboro]

different perspective on GP crashes

I watched the best Grand Prix in ages this weekend.

Firstly Montoya did take avoiding action in the tunnel and was alongside the Ferrari which Schumi instinctively or habitually turned right into him, This bounced Schumi up and the momentum pushed him across the track into the wall. The irony is that Montoya would have probably got a drive thru for overtaking behind the safety car.
Had Montoya hit him from behind with this much forct it would have broken montoya's nose cone or front wing off.

I am amazed nobody noticed this and nobody recalls the immediate "talking too" Schumi got behind a clipboard as he got out of the car. Presumably saying don't speak about this until we sort out the press release.

The Alonso crash in the tunnel is more ambiguous as Fernando's rage at the time could really be frustration with himself for a schoolboy error, or aimed at Ralph for either refusing to see blue flags or brake testing him.

Surely both brothers telemetry can confirm Alonso's allegations that Ralph stamped on the brakes and the odd steering inputs of the Ferrari

 

[JFreak]

Thats what I was saying. The crash was Alonso fault.

well it wasn't alonso's fault, but had he been more experienced, he could have easily avoided the incident. it was ralf or the race stewards who whould take the blame, but hey... at the end of the day it is the driver who need to make the decisions, and in that light you're right: alonso screwed up.

but it wasn't his FAULT.

 

[iGav]

Firstly Montoya did take avoiding action in the tunnel

We know that... he had to, because he was driving too fast without leaving enough space. Trulli has already said that Montoya was hassling Schu all the way around the lap, and he (Trulli) kept a safe distance, like all the other drivers were doing in the pack at the same time.

There was no need to for Montoya to be sat on Schu's gearbox, when he was a lap down, he wasn't even fighting for position... that makes it even more absurd for him to be hassling, as even if he could've overtaken Schu once the race was restarted, it wouldn't have been for position.

What I don't understand is how the stewards could say it was a "racing incident" when it was NOT under "green flag" race conditions??

Either way Schu's comment I thought, was a real kick in the balls... heheh

The situation is that the race leader was knocked out of the race after being hit by a backmarker.

backmarker...

 

[Counterfit]

the race stewards should have given him the black flag for technical problems, if the situation was that bad ralf stated. why they didn't react? nobody knows.

I'm not sure that they would be able to tell. Spain '94, Michael could only use 5th gear after the first stop. No black flag, and he even managed to finish second.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

I'm not sure that they would be able to tell. Spain '94, Michael could only use 5th gear after the first stop. No black flag, and he even managed to finish second.

Yes you are right. I think it somehow depends on the top speed a car can go and if its a pain in the ass for all the others trying to pass this car. Michael finished second - so can't really say he stopped others from competing